Stuck in a house with...

[dazzleman]

Being a prohibitionist is not conservatism it's prudery. Phil, nothing is wrong with drinking on occasion and its not even against the bible. Drinking in excess is the real problem Phil. I'm not going to sit here and preach to you Phil because I think you're a good person but I think that once you get out into the real world and out of your sheltered world you'll understand what I am talking about. And believe me, I was a LOT like you in H/S and I was sheltered like you.

States, I still find it hard to picture you not being a troublemaker in high school.

[Platypus]

God, Phil, you just don't like to agree with anyone or have anyone agree with you, do ya?

States is right. Alcohol has nothing to do with conservatism whatsoever. It has to do with, at best, religious conservatism, and at worst, prudery. Take your pick, but true conservatism, or even modern conservatism, has nothing to do with anything like alcohol consumption.

[Bono]

God, Phil, you just don't like to agree with anyone or have anyone agree with you, do ya?

States is right. Alcohol has nothing to do with conservatism whatsoever. It has to do with, at best, religious conservatism, and at worst, prudery. Take your pick, but true conservatism, or even modern conservatism, has nothing to do with anything like alcohol consumption.

It can have to do with not wanting to cloud your judgment...

[dazzleman]

God, Phil, you just don't like to agree with anyone or have anyone agree with you, do ya?

States is right. Alcohol has nothing to do with conservatism whatsoever. It has to do with, at best, religious conservatism, and at worst, prudery. Take your pick, but true conservatism, or even modern conservatism, has nothing to do with anything like alcohol consumption.

I generally agree, though I would say that conservatism and alcohol consumption are related only to the extent that conservatives believe in personal responsibility and liberals, for the most part, do not.

Therefore, if a person does stupid or terrible things while in a state of drunkenness, or as a result of chronic alcoholism, a liberal is more likely than a conservative to excuse such things due to "illness."  Everything is an illness with these people; nothing is just wrong.

But if a person drinks responsibly, or even gets a little drunk occasionally but doesn't do anybody but himself any harm, then it is simply not a political issue in any sense.  There are conservative partiers and liberal teetotalers.  Drinking is really not a political issue.

[CheeseWhiz]

Everett: No cheese?   You should demand a refund!

I don't really care if others drink, but I'm not ever gonna get within ten feet of the stuff!  Phil, I find the fact that you don't drink very admirable

[ilikeverin]

God, Phil, you just don't like to agree with anyone or have anyone agree with you, do ya?

States is right. Alcohol has nothing to do with conservatism whatsoever. It has to do with, at best, religious conservatism, and at worst, prudery. Take your pick, but true conservatism, or even modern conservatism, has nothing to do with anything like alcohol consumption.

It can have to do with not wanting to cloud your judgment...

Or a family history of alcoholism

Though I might drink some wine weekly for the health benefits

[Bono]

Everett: No cheese?   You should demand a refund!

I don't really care if others drink, but I'm not ever gonna get within ten feet of the stuff!  Phil, I find the fact that you don't drink very admirable

very un-italian too.

[Keystone Phil]

Do any of the people you hang out with drink, or are your friends a non-drinking crowd?  What about drugs?

None of them drink, smoke or do drugs. We have to see/hear about what goes on all the time and we are obviously happy with our decision.

[Keystone Phil]

Being a prohibitionist is not conservatism it's prudery. Phil, nothing is wrong with drinking on occasion and its not even against the bible. Drinking in excess is the real problem Phil. I'm not going to sit here and preach to you Phil because I think you're a good person but I think that once you get out into the real world and out of your sheltered world you'll understand what I am talking about. And believe me, I was a LOT like you in H/S and I was sheltered like you.

Again, point out where I said drinking on occassion was wrong. I said the goal of getting drunk is wrong. I live in the real world and I'm tired of people telling me that just because I disagree with it that I don't live in it. People around me need to live in the real world. In the real world, you can't get smashed all the time. There is something called a job and responsibility.

[Keystone Phil]

God, Phil, you just don't like to agree with anyone or have anyone agree with you, do ya?

God, Hugh, what makes you think I give a damn? Note to everyone - I believe in what I believe in based on my values, not of those on the forum or around me outside the forum. I'm sorry you're such a weak person, Hugh.

[dazzleman]

Do any of the people you hang out with drink, or are your friends a non-drinking crowd?  What about drugs?

None of them drink, smoke or do drugs. We have to see/hear about what goes on all the time and we are obviously happy with our decision.

That's good.  While I am somewhat tolerant of underage drinking (because I think most kids need to do something wrong, and that's the least evil of the available options IMO), I am very anti-drug, including marijuana.  I also hate to see kids smoking, because I know that while it's pretty easy for most people to taper off on the drinking as they become more mature, smoking is a habit that is usually very hard to break once it becomes a regular thing, and I see many people in their 40s who acquired smoking habits as teenagers, hate it, but have a tough time quitting.

[Platypus]

God, Phil, you just don't like to agree with anyone or have anyone agree with you, do ya?

God, Hugh, what makes you think I give a damn? Note to everyone - I believe in what I believe in based on my values, not of those on the forum or around me outside the forum. I'm sorry you're such a weak person, Hugh.

I never suggested you should 'give in', but if you read back from the start of this debate, many times when your point has been countered, you have opened a new front. Somthing you do very often. I call it the "Yeah but" syndrome, and you have it.

[Keystone Phil]

I never suggested you should 'give in', but if you read back from the start of this debate, many times when your point has been countered, you have opened a new front. Somthing you do very often. I call it the "Yeah but" syndrome, and you have it.

I have stuck with my argument throughout. I am consistent in my beliefs. It sucks that others aren't. I am finished arguing this though. I have stated how I feel and I'm just going to get shouted down as a preacher if I continue.

[dazzleman]

Do any of the people you hang out with drink, or are your friends a non-drinking crowd?  What about drugs?

None of them drink, smoke or do drugs. We have to see/hear about what goes on all the time and we are obviously happy with our decision.

That's good.  While I am somewhat tolerant of underage drinking (because I think most kids need to do something wrong, and that's the least evil of the available options IMO), I am very anti-drug, including marijuana.  I also hate to see kids smoking, because I know that while it's pretty easy for most people to taper off on the drinking as they become more mature, smoking is a habit that is usually very hard to break once it becomes a regular thing, and I see many people in their 40s who acquired smoking habits as teenagers, hate it, but have a tough time quitting.

I agree with you for the most part, Dazzleman.  Just not on the part that underage drinking is OK.  No one needs to do things wrong, they need to find something constructive to do with their time.

Keystone, I think there's a subtlety here.  I don't think underage drinking is OK, per se.  There is a difference between agreeing with and approving of something, and reluctantly tolerating it in small and controlled doses.

The big difference between us is that I have been where you are, but you have not been where I am, in terms of age and life experience.  I don't say that to imply that my view is superior because I'm older than you, because I really don't believe that, but I do have a longer period of life experience than you do.

My observation is that most kids have to rebel in some way as teenagers.  If you don't, that's great, but you're not in the majority in that respect.  While kids having constructive things to do with their time is great, it still doesn't negate that need for rebellion.  Plenty of kids do tremendously constructive things, and still find the time to get hammered on the weekends.  Even though they're great kids in every way, they still want to rebel and do some things they're not supposed to do.  It's a part of growing up for most kids, and nothing is going to change that.

I find that the best schools and parents find ways to channel that need into something that is as harmless as possible.  It's also good to let kids think that they're getting away with something, as long as their overall behavior is generally under control.  Kids love thinking they're getting over on the adults that rule their lives, and it's often good to let them think they are, since it often forestalls the desire on the part of the kids for more destructive behavior.  That's why I think it's good for parents and schools to be moderately strict, but not overly strict.  If there are effectively no rules, then the kid has to go a lot further in terms of bad behavior to satisfy the need to rebel.  But being too strict can lead to a higher level of rebellion than would have been the case if the parents/school were a little easier on the kid.

This is more an art than a science, and the personalities of the kids have to be taken into account.  Out of control kids need to be smacked down strongly, while basically good kids can be allowed to slide a little bit as long as it doesn't go too far. 

I was somewhat rebellious as a teenager, but I always limited my rebellion to low-level things.  I drank, sometimes a lot, but never drove drunk.  I tried a couple of drugs, but never became a user.  I broke low-level rules at school, like violating the dress code, cutting a class occasionally, getting a little rowdy in the library, etc.  I got into some trouble for those things, but maintained good grades and an overall good standing.  I was pretty persistent in my rebellious in the sense that repeated punishment didn't really deter me much from repeating the offense, once I grew accustomed to the punishment.  But still, I never sought to take those offenses to a higher level.

Looking back, I can see that I was manipulated fairly effectively as a teenager.  I satisfied my need for rebellion without ever getting into real trouble (unless you consider a bunch of detentions real trouble, which I don't).  That should be the goal of parents/educators.  I think it is futile and potentially highly destructive to think that we can coerce kids into behaving in EXACTLY the way we want them to behave.

[Keystone Phil]

The big difference between us is that I have been where you are, but you have not been where I am, in terms of age and life experience.  I don't say that to imply that my view is superior because I'm older than you, because I really don't believe that, but I do have a longer period of life experience than you do.

Yes, you have gotten drunk before and found it fun. Therefore, your experiences are greater than mine.

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They need to rebel? What? Also, your restating that people like myself aren't in the majority is really annoying. That has nothing to do with the argument especially since almost everyone in this minority regularly acknowledges their status.

 

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Terrible attitude. It's a shame you stand by in acceptance of the surrender philosophy. Also, if these contructive kids find the "need" to get hammered on the weekend, if they feel the need to impair their sense to have fun then there is something wrong with them.

 

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And when those basically "good" kids end up hurting someone else in the process and continue to hurt themselves, we'll see how good it is to let them slide.

[dazzleman]

The big difference between us is that I have been where you are, but you have not been where I am, in terms of age and life experience.  I don't say that to imply that my view is superior because I'm older than you, because I really don't believe that, but I do have a longer period of life experience than you do.

Yes, you have gotten drunk before and found it fun. Therefore, your experiences are greater than mine.

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They need to rebel? What? Also, your restating that people like myself aren't in the majority is really annoying. That has nothing to do with the argument especially since almost everyone in this minority regularly acknowledges their status.

 

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Terrible attitude. It's a shame you stand by in acceptance of the surrender philosophy. Also, if these contructive kids find the "need" to get hammered on the weekend, if they feel the need to impair their sense to have fun then there is something wrong with them.

 

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And when those basically "good" kids end up hurting someone else in the process and continue to hurt themselves, we'll see how good it is to let them slide.

Well, obviously you're 100% right as always.  It's a very impressive feat to have learned everything you could possibly need to know about life at 17.  What will you ever do for an encore?

[Keystone Phil]

The big difference between us is that I have been where you are, but you have not been where I am, in terms of age and life experience.  I don't say that to imply that my view is superior because I'm older than you, because I really don't believe that, but I do have a longer period of life experience than you do.

Yes, you have gotten drunk before and found it fun. Therefore, your experiences are greater than mine.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

They need to rebel? What? Also, your restating that people like myself aren't in the majority is really annoying. That has nothing to do with the argument especially since almost everyone in this minority regularly acknowledges their status.

 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Terrible attitude. It's a shame you stand by in acceptance of the surrender philosophy. Also, if these contructive kids find the "need" to get hammered on the weekend, if they feel the need to impair their sense to have fun then there is something wrong with them.

 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And when those basically "good" kids end up hurting someone else in the process and continue to hurt themselves, we'll see how good it is to let them slide.

Well, obviously you're 100% right as always.  It's a very impressive feat to have learned everything you could possibly need to know about life at 17.  What will you ever do for an encore?

And it's amazing that after 40-something years in your life you aren't wrong either. It's amazing. Instead of just answering my questions and addressing other points you resort to "Well you always think that you're right and there's no way around it."

[Beet]

IMO, there's no point in sitting around discussing it, just do what you need to do. Personally, I am not the most rebellious kind of personality and now that I'm getting a bit older and there's less of an opportunity to do that kind of stuff I wish I was a bit more rebellious back when I had less to lose. At the time I almost thought my entire life would be "over" if I didn't get into an Ivy league school, and nothing else mattered. I was also worried about a lot of things which in retrospect seem insignificant. If I could go back now I would probably relax a bit more and think more about the big picture of what I really wanted out of life.

[Keystone Phil]

IMO, there's no point in sitting around discussing it, just do what you need to do. Personally, I am not the most rebellious kind of personality and now that I'm getting a bit older and there's less of an opportunity to do that kind of stuff I wish I was a bit more rebellious back when I had less to lose. At the time I almost thought my entire life would be "over" if I didn't get into an Ivy league school, and nothing else mattered. I was also worried about a lot of things which in retrospect seem insignificant. If I could go back now I would probably relax a bit more and think more about the big picture of what I really wanted out of life.

Believe me when I say I am relaxed about most things in my life. Being super obsessed with what college I want to go to is not for me. In fact, I hate the obsession with college that is so clear amongst my friends.

[Beet]

IMO, there's no point in sitting around discussing it, just do what you need to do. Personally, I am not the most rebellious kind of personality and now that I'm getting a bit older and there's less of an opportunity to do that kind of stuff I wish I was a bit more rebellious back when I had less to lose. At the time I almost thought my entire life would be "over" if I didn't get into an Ivy league school, and nothing else mattered. I was also worried about a lot of things which in retrospect seem insignificant. If I could go back now I would probably relax a bit more and think more about the big picture of what I really wanted out of life.

Believe me when I say I am relaxed about most things in my life. Being super obsessed with what college I want to go to is not for me. In fact, I hate the obsession with college that is so clear amongst my friends.

Well, college obsession does tend to become a bit of a culture nowadays, though I'm not saying it's unimportant. But I saw people at my state school go to top 10 law programs, medical schools and graduate schools. It's probably most important to get to an Ivy league if you are interested in the corporate world, because corporations do selectively choose where they go to recruit. However, in the end the main variable is not what school you go to but your character. As they say, "character is destiny." If you know yourself, know what you want, and I mean truly know it, which very few teens do, then you will be successful anywhere. As I see it high school is the main time to build one's character. That is all I'm saying.

[MAS117]

IMO, there's no point in sitting around discussing it, just do what you need to do. Personally, I am not the most rebellious kind of personality and now that I'm getting a bit older and there's less of an opportunity to do that kind of stuff I wish I was a bit more rebellious back when I had less to lose. At the time I almost thought my entire life would be "over" if I didn't get into an Ivy league school, and nothing else mattered. I was also worried about a lot of things which in retrospect seem insignificant. If I could go back now I would probably relax a bit more and think more about the big picture of what I really wanted out of life.

Believe me when I say I am relaxed about most things in my life. Being super obsessed with what college I want to go to is not for me. In fact, I hate the obsession with college that is so clear amongst my friends.

I agree 100% with what Phil just said.

[dazzleman]

IMO, there's no point in sitting around discussing it, just do what you need to do. Personally, I am not the most rebellious kind of personality and now that I'm getting a bit older and there's less of an opportunity to do that kind of stuff I wish I was a bit more rebellious back when I had less to lose. At the time I almost thought my entire life would be "over" if I didn't get into an Ivy league school, and nothing else mattered. I was also worried about a lot of things which in retrospect seem insignificant. If I could go back now I would probably relax a bit more and think more about the big picture of what I really wanted out of life.

You're a wise man.

[dazzleman]

IMO, there's no point in sitting around discussing it, just do what you need to do. Personally, I am not the most rebellious kind of personality and now that I'm getting a bit older and there's less of an opportunity to do that kind of stuff I wish I was a bit more rebellious back when I had less to lose. At the time I almost thought my entire life would be "over" if I didn't get into an Ivy league school, and nothing else mattered. I was also worried about a lot of things which in retrospect seem insignificant. If I could go back now I would probably relax a bit more and think more about the big picture of what I really wanted out of life.

Believe me when I say I am relaxed about most things in my life. Being super obsessed with what college I want to go to is not for me. In fact, I hate the obsession with college that is so clear amongst my friends.

I agree 100% with what Phil just said.

So do I.  I think the whole obsession with getting into the right college that starts in preschool for a lot of people (or their parents) has gone overboard.

[Keystone Phil]

IMO, there's no point in sitting around discussing it, just do what you need to do. Personally, I am not the most rebellious kind of personality and now that I'm getting a bit older and there's less of an opportunity to do that kind of stuff I wish I was a bit more rebellious back when I had less to lose. At the time I almost thought my entire life would be "over" if I didn't get into an Ivy league school, and nothing else mattered. I was also worried about a lot of things which in retrospect seem insignificant. If I could go back now I would probably relax a bit more and think more about the big picture of what I really wanted out of life.

Believe me when I say I am relaxed about most things in my life. Being super obsessed with what college I want to go to is not for me. In fact, I hate the obsession with college that is so clear amongst my friends.

I agree 100% with what Phil just said.

So do I.  I think the whole obsession with getting into the right college that starts in preschool for a lot of people (or their parents) has gone overboard.

Ha! I actually have a friend who has pretty much been set on college since Freshman year of HS. I think it's great that people are interested in having a bright future and learning but there is a line that should not be crossed.

[??????????]

IMO, there's no point in sitting around discussing it, just do what you need to do. Personally, I am not the most rebellious kind of personality and now that I'm getting a bit older and there's less of an opportunity to do that kind of stuff I wish I was a bit more rebellious back when I had less to lose. At the time I almost thought my entire life would be "over" if I didn't get into an Ivy league school, and nothing else mattered. I was also worried about a lot of things which in retrospect seem insignificant. If I could go back now I would probably relax a bit more and think more about the big picture of what I really wanted out of life.

Wow, this post is great. I agree 150%.