Should the US sign the Ottawa Treaty (landmine ban)?

[dead0man]

Obama, like Bush the Lesser, isn't going to sign.  Obama, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize, is pissing on Princess Di's grave.  link

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The US still uses claymores..... a lot.  The Korean DMZ is full of regular mines.

As long as the PRC and Putin aren't signing.  As long as N.Korea is still run by a douche.  As long as the US needs to protect its assets against large numbers of low tech enemies we will need to use landmines.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

North Korea and Russia? Remind me again in which wars are the US going to get involved in which land mines are going to be needed or benefit military strategy in any significant way*.

(* - Is aware that this applies to all wars. At least wars in which the enemy military is the actual target.)

[dead0man]

North Korea and Russia? Remind me again in which wars are the US going to get involved in which land mines are going to be needed or benefit military strategy in any significant way*.

(* - Is aware that this applies to all wars. At least wars in which the enemy military is the actual target.)

You don't think landmines would be effective against the N.Koreans if they got a hair up their butt?  Would you think differently if you lived in Seoul?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

North Korea and Russia? Remind me again in which wars are the US going to get involved in which land mines are going to be needed or benefit military strategy in any significant way*.

(* - Is aware that this applies to all wars. At least wars in which the enemy military is the actual target.)

You don't think landmines would be effective against the N.Koreans if they got a hair up their butt?  Would you think differently if you lived in Seoul?

Compared to conventional or conventional-guerilla warfare tactics? No.

[dead0man]

Well I'm sure you're more educated on the matter than Obama and his advisors, Bush and his advisors and Clinton and his advisors.  Maybe you should send Obama your resume?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Well I'm sure you're more educated on the matter than Obama and his advisors, Bush and his advisors and Clinton and his advisors.  Maybe you should send Obama your resume?

I never said landmines had no military function. I just said that they aren't effective against conventional militaries in warfare. That isn't to say they aren't effective for other things... just not that. Understand?

[Јas]

Yes, and the cluster munitions treaty too while they're at it.

[dead0man]

Well I'm sure you're more educated on the matter than Obama and his advisors, Bush and his advisors and Clinton and his advisors.  Maybe you should send Obama your resume?

I never said landmines had no military function. I just said that they aren't effective against conventional militaries in warfare. That isn't to say they aren't effective for other things... just not that. Understand?

Not at all.  You're saying that they are not effective against conventional militaries, but they have a military function?  What is that function?  What other things are they effective at?  Kneejerk reactions?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Well I'm sure you're more educated on the matter than Obama and his advisors, Bush and his advisors and Clinton and his advisors.  Maybe you should send Obama your resume?

I never said landmines had no military function. I just said that they aren't effective against conventional militaries in warfare. That isn't to say they aren't effective for other things... just not that. Understand?

Not at all.  You're saying that they are not effective against conventional militaries, but they have a military function?  What is that function?  What other things are they effective at?  Kneejerk reactions?

Spreading Fear and Terror. Not necessarily (nay - not usually) at military targets. Example: Look at anywhere landmines have been used (I'm thinking mainly Angola and Afghanistan here. But there are lots of examples.)

Of course cluster bombs (as Jas brought them up) do this too and are much more effective. Why else use them?

[dead0man]

Landmines have been used by everybody for a long time.  They clearly serve a defensive purpose whether you believe they do or not.  Do you really think the US uses landmines (they haven't used them since 1991) to spread fear and terror amongst local civilian targets?  Is that US military's normal modus operandi?  Did the Brits use them in the Falklands to spread fear and terror amongst the local civilians?  Does Finland not sign the treaty to spread fear and terror amongst Russian civilians near the border?

[John Dibble]

No. Landmines have a clear military purpose in helping create defensive lines. Their presence can impede or outright halt the advance of enemy troops.

[Nhoj]

Landmines have been used by everybody for a long time.  They clearly serve a defensive purpose whether you believe they do or not.  Do you really think the US uses landmines (they haven't used them since 1991) to spread fear and terror amongst local civilian targets?  Is that US military's normal modus operandi?  Did the Brits use them in the Falklands to spread fear and terror amongst the local civilians?  Does Finland not sign the treaty to spread fear and terror amongst Russian civilians near the border?

The fact that we haven't used them since 1991 tells you something about their usefulness in modern warfare.
In anycase i dont think signing a treaty serves any point just dont use the bloody things or produce them.

[Mint]

Of course, there's really no practical reason to use those godawful things.

[k-onmmunist]

Obama, like Bush the Lesser, isn't going to sign.  Obama, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize, is pissing on Princess Di's grave. 

I wish people would shut up about her.

[Earth]

As long as the US needs to protect its assets against large numbers of low tech enemies we will need to use landmines.

Tell that to those that inadvertently walk on them.

The use of landmines are despicable.

[dead0man]

Of course, there's really no practical reason to use those godawful things.

But there are practical reasons to use them.  Why do you think Clinton, Bush and now Obama haven't signed on?  Why do you think Finland, Egypt and Poland haven't signed on?  It certainly isn't because they have no practical purpose.

As long as the US needs to protect its assets against large numbers of low tech enemies we will need to use landmines.

Tell that to those that inadvertently walk on them.

The use of landmines are despicable.

The US doesn't use the kind that stay active indefinitely and they haven't used them for a very long time.

Not that facts and logic can ever defeat emotion in an argument.

[Mint]

No, not really. The GAO found that there wasn't any real concrete evidence of 'specific military effects on the enemy such as enemy killed or equipment destroyed' (at least not provided by the military) in their 2002 report. Meanwhile a lot of the Pentagon actually views them as counter productive because they limit mobility so much and it's so easy for a screw up to make everything go horribly wrong.. That's why they're investing so much in 'smart mine' communications systems now.

[dead0man]

Which is what we use.  Like the claymore.  We really don't use the mines that are banned in the treaty, we just don't want to tie our hands if we ever do need to use them.

[dead0man]

...and it's not like our friends in western Europe wouldn't start making and using them again if the sh**t hit the fan.

[Earth]

The US doesn't use the kind that stay active indefinitely and they haven't used them for a very long time.

Not that facts and logic can ever defeat emotion in an argument.

I'm happy you thought I was speaking of America solely.

So you used logic, and facts to bolster your belief? Where's the logic in "because others are a threat", or is it simply an appeal to tradition?

Because they have a use doesn't mean they should be used. I figured we covered this somewhere before.

[Хahar 🤔]

Yes (D), but I don't see how some princess should figure into my opinions.

[Scam of God]

Ah, there's nothing quite like allegedly non-interventionist libertarians defending the military-industrial establishment.

[Jacobtm]

The US should probably stop killing quite so many people.

I'm no military expert, but the idea that landmines serve to instil fear where they're planted is certainly true. You wouldn't be afraid if you didn't know whether your next step would kill you?

Dead0man, we don't use the mines banned in the treaty, but we need to avoid signing the treaty? How long do the indefinately active landmines that we do use stay active for? How long is reasonable to tell a civilian population to not walk anywhere?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

I don't care about the treaty, but landmines should be banned regardless.

Better yet, fedgov should be banned from spending any money on any weapons.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Obama is a lunatic for not signing.