TikTok ban?

[Stranger in a strange land]

The issue is that any potential manipulation of TikTok's algorithim as well as any data collection use by the CCP can both be addressed by means short of a ban. Simply open up the algorithim to regulators so they can see what's in it, would solve the first issue. And keep all the data in the US with the passwords only available to employees of a third party auditor or a regulator would solve the other issue.

And further, require a corporate structure so that the US operations are essentially independent, and any communications from "HQ" down are monitored by regulators, and any policies issued from HQ down subject to regulatory approval.

With those reforms in place, there is no need for the most draconian restriction on Americans' speech in a century, as well as opening up the can of worms of the government telling people which apps can be used or not. And besides, all of the data collection and manipulation concerns regarding TikTok also apply to other social media companies. They may be of a different scale, but our privacy should be protected against misuse by domestic actors as well. So there should be a bill covering general privacy protections rather than this bill.

This is hardly "the most draconian restriction on Americans' speech in a century."  It is not demanding any change to TikTok's functionality at all.  It is just saying that an app that stores massive amounts of user data in a totally non-transparent way should be owned by an American company.  The amount of disinformation and conspiratorial thought around this issue is staggering.

I'll also add that the fact ByteDance won't agree to do any of what Beet describes, or even sell the company for billions of dollars, should be a huge red flag about its real purpose and intentions.

[GP270watch]

 They want to ban TikTok because the western media can not control it. TikTok is one of the few places the youth can get a pro climate, anti-corporate, anti-military industrial complex, reform or anti-capitalist messages. While you might not agree with these things they are all covered by free speech but western media has left virtual no spaces for these topics.

 This is the real reason why they want to ban TikTok.

[DaleCooper]

They want to ban TikTok because the western media can not control it. TikTok is one of the few places the youth can get a pro climate, anti-corporate, anti-military industrial complex, reform or anti-capitalist message. While you might not agree with these things they are all covered by free speech but western media has left virtual no spaces for these topics.

 This is the real reason why they want to ban TikTok.

All that sh-t can be, and is, posted everywhere. For the moment, it seems that the Chinese are more interested in collecting information than they are deliberately controlling the narrative on TikTok outside of boosting generally divisive and controversial material, which is why certain information that otherwise goes against China's interests is allowed on the platform.

[GP270watch]

They want to ban TikTok because the western media can not control it. TikTok is one of the few places the youth can get a pro climate, anti-corporate, anti-military industrial complex, reform or anti-capitalist message. While you might not agree with these things they are all covered by free speech but western media has left virtual no spaces for these topics.

 This is the real reason why they want to ban TikTok.

All that sh-t can be, and is, posted everywhere. For the moment, it seems that the Chinese are more interested in collecting information than they are deliberately controlling the narrative on TikTok outside of boosting generally divisive and controversial material, which is why certain information that otherwise goes against China's interests is allowed on the platform.

 It isn't though and American social media platforms have been caught shadow-banning and demonetizing or outright banning accounts solely on the basis of not following the corporate agenda.

[DaleCooper]

They want to ban TikTok because the western media can not control it. TikTok is one of the few places the youth can get a pro climate, anti-corporate, anti-military industrial complex, reform or anti-capitalist message. While you might not agree with these things they are all covered by free speech but western media has left virtual no spaces for these topics.

 This is the real reason why they want to ban TikTok.

All that sh-t can be, and is, posted everywhere. For the moment, it seems that the Chinese are more interested in collecting information than they are deliberately controlling the narrative on TikTok outside of boosting generally divisive and controversial material, which is why certain information that otherwise goes against China's interests is allowed on the platform.

 It isn't though and American social media platforms have been caught shadow-banning and demonetizing or outright banning accounts solely on the basis of not following the corporate agenda.

I don't believe it.

[GP270watch]

They want to ban TikTok because the western media can not control it. TikTok is one of the few places the youth can get a pro climate, anti-corporate, anti-military industrial complex, reform or anti-capitalist message. While you might not agree with these things they are all covered by free speech but western media has left virtual no spaces for these topics.

 This is the real reason why they want to ban TikTok.

All that sh-t can be, and is, posted everywhere. For the moment, it seems that the Chinese are more interested in collecting information than they are deliberately controlling the narrative on TikTok outside of boosting generally divisive and controversial material, which is why certain information that otherwise goes against China's interests is allowed on the platform.

 It isn't though and American social media platforms have been caught shadow-banning and demonetizing or outright banning accounts solely on the basis of not following the corporate agenda.

I don't believe it.

Facebook purges left-wing pages and individuals


Free speech ‘absolutist’ Elon Musk personally ordered the Twitter suspension of left-wing activist, report claims

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

"Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk are shady and untrustworthy individuals" is not exactly an argument for "The Chinese Communist Party is reliable and can be trusted fine"

[GP270watch]

"Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk are shady and untrustworthy individuals" is not exactly an argument for "The Chinese Communist Party is reliable and can be trusted fine"

 Nobody said they are or can be trusted. The CCP does have an interest in letting Americans criticize the worst aspects of American life. Just because they provide the platform for this, doesn't mean the messages people are sharing are not valid.

 

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

"Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk are shady and untrustworthy individuals" is not exactly an argument for "The Chinese Communist Party is reliable and can be trusted fine"

 Nobody said they are or can be trusted. The CCP does have an interest in letting Americans criticize the worst aspects of American life. Just because they provide the platform for this, doesn't mean the messages people are sharing are not valid.

And they don't allow criticism of any of the Chinese actions on that platform: https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/11/27/20985795/tiktok-censorship-china-uighur-bytedance

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

"Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk are shady and untrustworthy individuals" is not exactly an argument for "The Chinese Communist Party is reliable and can be trusted fine"

 Nobody said they are or can be trusted. The CCP does have an interest in letting Americans criticize the worst aspects of American life. Just because they provide the platform for this, doesn't mean the messages people are sharing are not valid.

And they don't allow criticism of any of the Chinese actions on that platform: https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/11/27/20985795/tiktok-censorship-china-uighur-bytedance

Probably doesn't bother the OP since he doesn't have any negative things to say about the CCP. They allow him to criticize the US government all he wants on Tiktok!

[GP270watch]

We are allowed to criticize China on all our social media platforms, why do you think that is?

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

We are allowed to criticize China on all our social media platforms, why do you think that is?

Because we have a...bit...more freedom of speech in this country than people in Communist China. I won't comment on what Elon Musk did at Twitter. It's a private company he owns and he's been known to be unreasonable.

The FB link you posted was from a far-left socialist website. I don't know the sequence of events behind that so I won't comment other than the source it comes from. I will note it has nothing to do with banning accounts that criticize the US government, which is what we are discussing here.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Facebook purges left-wing pages and individuals

ho hooo man.  I was expecting this link to be to some dumb s--t, but I was expecting, like, The Intercept or something.

I was not expecting World Socialist Web Site -- online newspaper of the international Trotskyist movement.

https://newpol.org/on-gutter-journalism-and-purported-anti-imperialism/

One example of pro-Putin, pro-Assad “left-wing” propaganda combined with gutter journalism is the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS), run by a “Trotskyist” cult led by a political sicko named David North, which perpetuates a long worn-out tradition of inter-Trotskyist sectarian quarrels in fulfilling its role as apologist for Putin, Assad, and their friends. Another example is Grayzone, a website founded by a particularly versatile character named Max Blumenthal.

These websites have in common the habit of demonizing all left-wing critics of Putin and the likes of Assad by describing them as “agents of imperialism” or some equivalent. The main “target market” assigned to them is naturally the left-wing readership. This implies that they must strive not only to convince their readers of the virtues of Moscow and its clients by a resort to fake “left-wing” and “anti-imperialist” arguments, but also and most importantly to discredit their left-wing critics. In doing so, they resort to the oldest trick of the slandering profession: outright lies.

where the hell you gettin your information man

[Electric Circus]

They want to ban TikTok because the western media can not control it. TikTok is one of the few places the youth can get a pro climate, anti-corporate, anti-military industrial complex, reform or anti-capitalist messages. While you might not agree with these things they are all covered by free speech but western media has left virtual no spaces for these topics.

Does the entire World Wide Web, with the exception of this forum, just not exist to you?

[All Along The Watchtower]

TikTok is one of the few places the youth can get a pro climate, anti-corporate, anti-military industrial complex, reform or anti-capitalist messages.

[GP270watch]

Facebook purges left-wing pages and individuals

ho hooo man.  I was expecting this link to be to some dumb s--t, but I was expecting, like, The Intercept or something.

I was not expecting World Socialist Web Site -- online newspaper of the international Trotskyist movement.

https://newpol.org/on-gutter-journalism-and-purported-anti-imperialism/

One example of pro-Putin, pro-Assad “left-wing” propaganda combined with gutter journalism is the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS), run by a “Trotskyist” cult led by a political sicko named David North, which perpetuates a long worn-out tradition of inter-Trotskyist sectarian quarrels in fulfilling its role as apologist for Putin, Assad, and their friends. Another example is Grayzone, a website founded by a particularly versatile character named Max Blumenthal.

These websites have in common the habit of demonizing all left-wing critics of Putin and the likes of Assad by describing them as “agents of imperialism” or some equivalent. The main “target market” assigned to them is naturally the left-wing readership. This implies that they must strive not only to convince their readers of the virtues of Moscow and its clients by a resort to fake “left-wing” and “anti-imperialist” arguments, but also and most importantly to discredit their left-wing critics. In doing so, they resort to the oldest trick of the slandering profession: outright lies.

where the hell you gettin your information man

 This was reported at other sites as well. Also Facebook never explained why it banned these accounts and only started to restore them when it was reported by leftwing bloggers.

[GP270watch]

They want to ban TikTok because the western media can not control it. TikTok is one of the few places the youth can get a pro climate, anti-corporate, anti-military industrial complex, reform or anti-capitalist messages. While you might not agree with these things they are all covered by free speech but western media has left virtual no spaces for these topics.

Does the entire World Wide Web, with the exception of this forum, just not exist to you?

 This just isn't true and also misses the points, a mass distribution platform can not be compared to some niche forum that almost nobody in America knows about. I was previously in favor of banning TikTok but seeing how they have left a space for all the above I mentioned, it can't do much more harm than our own media which has become horribly concentrated and corporate owned and hardly gives a platform to anything that doesn't fit the corporate agenda.

 Yes the Chinese are probably spying on you if you use TikTok but so is Meta, Google, and Twitter. You should know that before using any of these platforms.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Facebook purges left-wing pages and individuals

ho hooo man.  I was expecting this link to be to some dumb s--t, but I was expecting, like, The Intercept or something.

I was not expecting World Socialist Web Site -- online newspaper of the international Trotskyist movement.

https://newpol.org/on-gutter-journalism-and-purported-anti-imperialism/

One example of pro-Putin, pro-Assad “left-wing” propaganda combined with gutter journalism is the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS), run by a “Trotskyist” cult led by a political sicko named David North, which perpetuates a long worn-out tradition of inter-Trotskyist sectarian quarrels in fulfilling its role as apologist for Putin, Assad, and their friends. Another example is Grayzone, a website founded by a particularly versatile character named Max Blumenthal.

These websites have in common the habit of demonizing all left-wing critics of Putin and the likes of Assad by describing them as “agents of imperialism” or some equivalent. The main “target market” assigned to them is naturally the left-wing readership. This implies that they must strive not only to convince their readers of the virtues of Moscow and its clients by a resort to fake “left-wing” and “anti-imperialist” arguments, but also and most importantly to discredit their left-wing critics. In doing so, they resort to the oldest trick of the slandering profession: outright lies.

where the hell you gettin your information man

Not only that, but they were opposed to Cuomo resigning, lol: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/08/05/pers-a05.html

[GP270watch]

Meta’s Broken Promises: Systemic Censorship of Palestine Content on Instagram and Facebook

[Beet]

The issue is that any potential manipulation of TikTok's algorithim as well as any data collection use by the CCP can both be addressed by means short of a ban. Simply open up the algorithim to regulators so they can see what's in it, would solve the first issue. And keep all the data in the US with the passwords only available to employees of a third party auditor or a regulator would solve the other issue.

And further, require a corporate structure so that the US operations are essentially independent, and any communications from "HQ" down are monitored by regulators, and any policies issued from HQ down subject to regulatory approval.

With those reforms in place, there is no need for the most draconian restriction on Americans' speech in a century, as well as opening up the can of worms of the government telling people which apps can be used or not. And besides, all of the data collection and manipulation concerns regarding TikTok also apply to other social media companies. They may be of a different scale, but our privacy should be protected against misuse by domestic actors as well. So there should be a bill covering general privacy protections rather than this bill.

This is hardly "the most draconian restriction on Americans' speech in a century."  It is not demanding any change to TikTok's functionality at all.  It is just saying that an app that stores massive amounts of user data in a totally non-transparent way should be owned by an American company.  The amount of disinformation and conspiratorial thought around this issue is staggering.

No one objects to the divestment part, only the ban part. The ban, according to this bill, goes into effect if the CCP doesn't approve of divestment. Ironically, this bill is what gives the CCP the power to effectively ban a hugely popular app in America. Which would be more power than they would have had without it.

I'll also add that the fact ByteDance won't agree to do any of what Beet describes, or even sell the company for billions of dollars, should be a huge red flag about its real purpose and intentions.

Where did they say they wouldn't agree to it? They almost certainly would agree to it. Let's give them an opportunity to and see if they accept.

"Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk are shady and untrustworthy individuals" is not exactly an argument for "The Chinese Communist Party is reliable and can be trusted fine"

 Nobody said they are or can be trusted. The CCP does have an interest in letting Americans criticize the worst aspects of American life. Just because they provide the platform for this, doesn't mean the messages people are sharing are not valid.

And they don't allow criticism of any of the Chinese actions on that platform: https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/11/27/20985795/tiktok-censorship-china-uighur-bytedance

This article, from 2019, just says they were "accused of censorship", not that they censored. And the reason why is quite clear from a cursory scroll-down of the article:

In a statement, TikTok confirmed that it banned Aziz — though it denied it was because of her beauty tutorial-cum-impassioned plea on behalf of China’s Muslims. Instead, it said it only banned the phone that Aziz used to upload those videos because it was tied to her previous account, which had been banned for violating policies on terrorism-related imagery. (One of her videos briefly showed a photo of Osama bin Laden in what she has described as a joke about other people’s perceptions of the kind of men that she, as a Muslim woman, is romantically interested in.)

In fact, she posted as late as October 2020 and her account is still up, with 160k followers and 5.6M likes. And you can find plenty of content on the Uyghur genocide on TikTok from a cursory search. The account @uyghuryouth https://www.tiktok.com/@uyghuryouth, regularly posts videos raising awareness.

Ironically, this content would be banned in America under the bill proposed, if the CCP decides that it should be.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I am never clicking another link from GP270Watch lmao

As for the ban, that's only the enforcement for divestment.  I would also be OK with fining ByteDance into oblivion for storing data in China.  But a ban is more practical.  Realistically, the point is to get them to divest.

[Beet]

I am never clicking another link from GP270Watch lmao

As for the ban, that's only the enforcement for divestment.  I would also be OK with fining ByteDance into oblivion for storing data in China.  But a ban is more practical.  Realistically, the point is to get them to divest.

Look, I would be 100% on board with a divestment, but the problem is the CCP has to approve a divestment, and they have stated they won't. This bill gives them way too much power to determine that outcome.

[Electric Circus]

They want to ban TikTok because the western media can not control it. TikTok is one of the few places the youth can get a pro climate, anti-corporate, anti-military industrial complex, reform or anti-capitalist messages. While you might not agree with these things they are all covered by free speech but western media has left virtual no spaces for these topics.

Does the entire World Wide Web, with the exception of this forum, just not exist to you?

 This just isn't true and also misses the points, a mass distribution platform can not be compared to some niche forum that almost nobody in America knows about. I was previously in favor of banning TikTok but seeing how they have left a space for all the above I mentioned, it can't do much more harm than our own media which has become horribly concentrated and corporate owned and hardly gives a platform to anything that doesn't fit the corporate agenda.

 Yes the Chinese are probably spying on you if you use TikTok but so is Meta, Google, and Twitter. You should know that before using any of these platforms.

There is no need to rely on major social media platforms to access anything, other than content that users choose to post there exclusively.

For anyone concerned with social change, the overriding concern should be getting out while your thoughts are still your own. Last year, one of the most engaged with posts on Facebook was a bunch of people praying to a photo of a potato. That's your future if you keep scrolling.

Anyway, I like your point about distribution, and your original post makes a lot more sense to me with that clarification. A lesson that American-owned tech companies have taken from the past decade is that political discussion isn't worth the trouble, and most of their applications give content that any large group of users might find politically objectionable low priority.

I don't want to ban TikTok either. The layer that a lot of people are missing in this discussion is that Americans are choosing to use it because they built a better and more entertaining product at a time when our own social media platforms had become stagnant and dull.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I am never clicking another link from GP270Watch lmao

As for the ban, that's only the enforcement for divestment.  I would also be OK with fining ByteDance into oblivion for storing data in China.  But a ban is more practical.  Realistically, the point is to get them to divest.

Look, I would be 100% on board with a divestment, but the problem is the CCP has to approve a divestment, and they have stated they won't. This bill gives them way too much power to determine that outcome.

So what is the position here?  That we should somehow force the CCP to approve a divestment?  That we should invade China and seize the codebase and data centers that constitute TikTok if they don't divest?

The most we have the power to do is to ban the app from operating in the United States.  That is now what we are threatening to do, to try and force ByteDance to divest.  If the CCP is unwilling to approve a divestment, there's not much more we can threaten it with other than a ban.  And I don't see any way to force ByteDance to give TikTok to an American company other than by threats.

[longtimelurker]

Trump's flip-flop on Tik Tok is due to money money.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trumps-tiktok-ban-reversal-after-meeting-megadonor-stake/story?id=108013785