Ukraine Crisis

[User157088589849]

So a little under 12 hours to war then?  The only question appears to be whether Russia fires first or is able to successfully spook Ukraine into doing so.

Personally, I think the Ukrainians may well surrrender. It's the sensible thing to do now; there are too many Russian forces in Crimea.

Agreed, the should surrender for the moment. But let's not forget that Ukraine doesn't have some mickey mouse armed forces, their army is pretty strong and well-resourced. Russia would be foolish to enter into conflict.

Russians in Donetsk, Kharkiv dont want this fascist ukrainian government.

Plus there are rumblings in Riga, Vilnius with the ethnic russians.

If they are Russians then they should move back to Russia. Who are they to tell the Ukrainian people what to do? Ukrainian people have rallied in Kiev for a pro-European government, yes it takes the form of a (mainly) centre-right coalition, but it hardly makes them fascists as you put it. If anyone is acting like a fascist it is Mr. Putin for not respecting sovereign territory and invading for expansionist purposes.

You have no understanding of russia or its former states. The bigotry towards ethnic russians has been going on since 1991.

Donetsk Kharkiv are completely different to Lviv and Kiev. Donetsk and Kharkiv view russians and ukrainians as brothers and sisters. They speak the same language, religion and celebrate the same customs. Lviv and Kiev dont. Lviv is a former state of the austrian-hungarian empire. The have hated russians for generations.

Look at a map of europe before ww1 and see that ukraine is a mixture of empires and this is why there are massive cultural differences.

You cant tell the people of Donetsk and Kharkiv that they are ukrainian when the majority live in total fear.

[User157088589849]

I think there is alot of ignorance on here. Ukrainians and Russians view each other as brothers and sisters. They both dont want to fight, they both dont want to shoot bullets at each other.

However, the DISPUTE is the ukrainians occupying kiev. These are from the austria-hungarian empire part of ukraine that have been bought up for generations hating russians. The media is not doing a good job at explaining this.

Donetsk, Kharkiv and Crimea want russian troops in  the country. Its like the falkland islands, gibraltor for the British. If the russians went back, the ethnic russians would feel terrified.

This is a situation created by american money funding fascists in ukraine to remove a democratically elected leader. Its completely unacceptable and this is why putin will not stand down. He will protect the ethnic russians like britain would defend the falkland islands.

What a load of old tosh. You speak for all Ukrainians that they view Russians as their brothers and sisters? HA! I would challenge you to say that to Crimean Tatar or the family of one of those shot on Kiev for demonstrating against closer ties to Russia.

It's nothing like the Falklands or Gibraltar because they are British Overseas Territories. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, Russia doesn't own it as much as they don't own Latvia or Lithuania. To argue against this would be stupid.

Ethnic Russians can go move to Russia if they are so loved by Mr. Putin. I hardly think a nation wanting to join the EU will be implementing harsh policies against that section of the populace if they actually want to gain accession.

I've never heard so much rubbish in my life, well except from people like Peter Hitchens.

I have lived in Riga for 6 months and Kharkiv for 2 years.

My partner is Latvian. She was in 1981 in the former ussr. Her father was born in Ukraine and her mother was born in Georgia. They have lived in Riga since 1979. They are russian speakers.

In 2008, they recieved a letter from the latvia home office. They were told by the home office that unless they spoke Latvian they would have there pension stopped. They were told to go on latvian speaking courses. They were both denied latvian passports. These are two people in there 60s.

[THE_TITAN]

So a little under 12 hours to war then?  The only question appears to be whether Russia fires first or is able to successfully spook Ukraine into doing so.

Personally, I think the Ukrainians may well surrrender. It's the sensible thing to do now; there are too many Russian forces in Crimea.

Agreed, the should surrender for the moment. But let's not forget that Ukraine doesn't have some mickey mouse armed forces, their army is pretty strong and well-resourced. Russia would be foolish to enter into conflict.

Russians in Donetsk, Kharkiv dont want this fascist ukrainian government.

Plus there are rumblings in Riga, Vilnius with the ethnic russians.

If they are Russians then they should move back to Russia. Who are they to tell the Ukrainian people what to do? Ukrainian people have rallied in Kiev for a pro-European government, yes it takes the form of a (mainly) centre-right coalition, but it hardly makes them fascists as you put it. If anyone is acting like a fascist it is Mr. Putin for not respecting sovereign territory and invading for expansionist purposes.

You have no understanding of russia or its former states. The bigotry towards ethnic russians has been going on since 1991.

Donetsk Kharkiv are completely different to Lviv and Kiev. Donetsk and Kharkiv view russians and ukrainians as brothers and sisters. They speak the same language, religion and celebrate the same customs. Lviv and Kiev dont. Lviv is a former state of the austrian-hungarian empire. The have hated russians for generations.

Look at a map of europe before ww1 and see that ukraine is a mixture of empires and this is why there are massive cultural differences.

You cant tell the people of Donetsk and Kharkiv that they are ukrainian when the majority live in total fear.

Your sounding a lot like Milosevic. "Ethnic Russians", historical disputes etc. etc. I hardly think the people of Donetsk are living in fear, their city has received significant investment over the last decade, look at their football team for example.

[User157088589849]

I think there is alot of ignorance on here. Ukrainians and Russians view each other as brothers and sisters. They both dont want to fight, they both dont want to shoot bullets at each other.

However, the DISPUTE is the ukrainians occupying kiev. These are from the austria-hungarian empire part of ukraine that have been bought up for generations hating russians. The media is not doing a good job at explaining this.

Donetsk, Kharkiv and Crimea want russian troops in  the country. Its like the falkland islands, gibraltor for the British. If the russians went back, the ethnic russians would feel terrified.

This is a situation created by american money funding fascists in ukraine to remove a democratically elected leader. Its completely unacceptable and this is why putin will not stand down. He will protect the ethnic russians like britain would defend the falkland islands.

What a load of old tosh. You speak for all Ukrainians that they view Russians as their brothers and sisters? HA! I would challenge you to say that to Crimean Tatar or the family of one of those shot on Kiev for demonstrating against closer ties to Russia.

It's nothing like the Falklands or Gibraltar because they are British Overseas Territories. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, Russia doesn't own it as much as they don't own Latvia or Lithuania. To argue against this would be stupid.

Ethnic Russians can go move to Russia if they are so loved by Mr. Putin. I hardly think a nation wanting to join the EU will be implementing harsh policies against that section of the populace if they actually want to gain accession.

I've never heard so much rubbish in my life, well except from people like Peter Hitchens.

Get your passport go to donetsk, kharkiv and crimea and ask for yourself what these people want.

[Storebought]

This discussion reflects what Merkel meant when she said that Putin was speaking from a different perception of the world. A delusional one...

[THE_TITAN]

I think there is alot of ignorance on here. Ukrainians and Russians view each other as brothers and sisters. They both dont want to fight, they both dont want to shoot bullets at each other.

However, the DISPUTE is the ukrainians occupying kiev. These are from the austria-hungarian empire part of ukraine that have been bought up for generations hating russians. The media is not doing a good job at explaining this.

Donetsk, Kharkiv and Crimea want russian troops in  the country. Its like the falkland islands, gibraltor for the British. If the russians went back, the ethnic russians would feel terrified.

This is a situation created by american money funding fascists in ukraine to remove a democratically elected leader. Its completely unacceptable and this is why putin will not stand down. He will protect the ethnic russians like britain would defend the falkland islands.

What a load of old tosh. You speak for all Ukrainians that they view Russians as their brothers and sisters? HA! I would challenge you to say that to Crimean Tatar or the family of one of those shot on Kiev for demonstrating against closer ties to Russia.

It's nothing like the Falklands or Gibraltar because they are British Overseas Territories. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, Russia doesn't own it as much as they don't own Latvia or Lithuania. To argue against this would be stupid.

Ethnic Russians can go move to Russia if they are so loved by Mr. Putin. I hardly think a nation wanting to join the EU will be implementing harsh policies against that section of the populace if they actually want to gain accession.

I've never heard so much rubbish in my life, well except from people like Peter Hitchens.

Get your passport go to donetsk, kharkiv and crimea and ask for yourselves what these people want.

You're going off on a complete tangent where your argument is based on emotion (which cannot be verified) and isolated incidences in other countries. And quite frankly it depends what person you ask in those regions, I think the majority would just want peace and those that do not would have significantly differing views e.g. the ethnic Russians and Crimean Tatars in Crimea. Stop basing your argument on historical disputes and personal experiences and start realizing that this issue is much bigger. It's an issue of the respect of sovereignty and the invasion of a nation by an external power.

[User157088589849]

So a little under 12 hours to war then?  The only question appears to be whether Russia fires first or is able to successfully spook Ukraine into doing so.

Personally, I think the Ukrainians may well surrrender. It's the sensible thing to do now; there are too many Russian forces in Crimea.

Agreed, the should surrender for the moment. But let's not forget that Ukraine doesn't have some mickey mouse armed forces, their army is pretty strong and well-resourced. Russia would be foolish to enter into conflict.

Russians in Donetsk, Kharkiv dont want this fascist ukrainian government.

Plus there are rumblings in Riga, Vilnius with the ethnic russians.

If they are Russians then they should move back to Russia. Who are they to tell the Ukrainian people what to do? Ukrainian people have rallied in Kiev for a pro-European government, yes it takes the form of a (mainly) centre-right coalition, but it hardly makes them fascists as you put it. If anyone is acting like a fascist it is Mr. Putin for not respecting sovereign territory and invading for expansionist purposes.

You have no understanding of russia or its former states. The bigotry towards ethnic russians has been going on since 1991.

Donetsk Kharkiv are completely different to Lviv and Kiev. Donetsk and Kharkiv view russians and ukrainians as brothers and sisters. They speak the same language, religion and celebrate the same customs. Lviv and Kiev dont. Lviv is a former state of the austrian-hungarian empire. The have hated russians for generations.

Look at a map of europe before ww1 and see that ukraine is a mixture of empires and this is why there are massive cultural differences.

You cant tell the people of Donetsk and Kharkiv that they are ukrainian when the majority live in total fear.

Your sounding a lot like Milosevic. "Ethnic Russians", historical disputes etc. etc. I hardly think the people of Donetsk are living in fear, their city has received significant investment over the last decade, look at their football team for example.

your telling people of crimea, kharkiv and donestsk that they have to live with these thugs in kiev who hate russians.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

For all the map fantasists, I repeat my challenge of earlier:



This is 1913. Draw a series of 'rational' ethnic boundaries. While keeping in mind that these majorities in many places were frequently waver thin... (and that cities were frequently inhabited by very different ethnic groups to the surrounding countryside... and also in many cases had large Jewish populations...).

Btw, I'm now ignoring 4 people thanks to this thread.

[THE_TITAN]

So a little under 12 hours to war then?  The only question appears to be whether Russia fires first or is able to successfully spook Ukraine into doing so.

Personally, I think the Ukrainians may well surrrender. It's the sensible thing to do now; there are too many Russian forces in Crimea.

Agreed, the should surrender for the moment. But let's not forget that Ukraine doesn't have some mickey mouse armed forces, their army is pretty strong and well-resourced. Russia would be foolish to enter into conflict.

Russians in Donetsk, Kharkiv dont want this fascist ukrainian government.

Plus there are rumblings in Riga, Vilnius with the ethnic russians.

If they are Russians then they should move back to Russia. Who are they to tell the Ukrainian people what to do? Ukrainian people have rallied in Kiev for a pro-European government, yes it takes the form of a (mainly) centre-right coalition, but it hardly makes them fascists as you put it. If anyone is acting like a fascist it is Mr. Putin for not respecting sovereign territory and invading for expansionist purposes.

You have no understanding of russia or its former states. The bigotry towards ethnic russians has been going on since 1991.

Donetsk Kharkiv are completely different to Lviv and Kiev. Donetsk and Kharkiv view russians and ukrainians as brothers and sisters. They speak the same language, religion and celebrate the same customs. Lviv and Kiev dont. Lviv is a former state of the austrian-hungarian empire. The have hated russians for generations.

Look at a map of europe before ww1 and see that ukraine is a mixture of empires and this is why there are massive cultural differences.

You cant tell the people of Donetsk and Kharkiv that they are ukrainian when the majority live in total fear.

Your sounding a lot like Milosevic. "Ethnic Russians", historical disputes etc. etc. I hardly think the people of Donetsk are living in fear, their city has received significant investment over the last decade, look at their football team for example.

your telling people of crimea, kharkiv and donestsk that they have to live with these thugs in kiev who hate russians.

Last I checked those places were in Ukraine, if they love Russia so much why don't they move there? If they are so scared why don't they move?!?! Your argument is baseless and reminiscent of those Milosevic put forward on the Kosovo crisis.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Btw, I'm now ignoring 4 people thanks to this thread.

Just 2 for me. For now.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Btw, I'm now ignoring 4 people thanks to this thread.

Just 2 for me. For now.

Well tbf I'd be meaning to put Snowstalker on it for ages but I was lazy until I saw his sage attempts here...

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Btw, I'm now ignoring 4 people thanks to this thread.

Just 2 for me. For now.

Well tbf I'd be meaning to put Snowstalker on it for ages but I was lazy until I saw his sage attempts here...

And that's how Snowstalker became an un-person for us.

At least I did something productive today.

[windjammer]

Maybe we should give the Veto power to an another country from the ex soviet Union?

Who are "we" and how do you propose "we" should do that exactly ?

-Oh hey Vladou, mind if we strip you of your veto in the UNSC ?
-Not at all, West, go ahead, see if I care !
-Oh and you wouldn't be a permanent member either...
-No worries, mate. Who are you getting in ?
-Well, we thought about Estonia. Nothing sure yet.
-Good, good.
-See ya !

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Russia is considered a successor-state of the Soviet Union as far as international relations are concerned.

Taiwan precedent doesn't really apply. There were two governments (Taipei and Beijing) claiming to be China's sole representation. You can't seriously spin Georgia or Lithuania or Estonia or Kazakhstan as the USSR successor. These countries did secede, Russia did not. Beside, Baltic states does not recognize their time as the Soviet Republic as legitimate.

I know that's unlikely, but what wouldn't it be simply a threat made by the USA?

[RogueBeaver]

UK isn't closing financial centres to Russians or curbing trade with them.

[NewYorkExpress]

http://swampland.time.com/2014/03/03/u-s-to-boycott-sochi-paralympics-in-protest-over-ukraine-incursion

In what might be the most misleading TIME headline ever, the U.S has decided to partially boycott the Winter Paralympics, which like their more watched brethren, are in Sochi, Russia. This apparently doesn't mean that athletes aren't being barred, just there is Presidential delegation attending... In other words, probably the weakest possible move from President Obama.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

We should certainly use this crisis as an excuse to seize the property of oligarchs in London.

[windjammer]

And what's up for Timochenko? I guess she will run for president?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

We should certainly use this crisis as an excuse to seize the property of oligarchs in London.

That would be far more effective tool than talking nonsense as blocking Kaliningrad or setting up NATO bases on the Russian borders.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It would also help to (start to) solve the housing crisis in London, much of which is caused by people such as those using the city as a fycking monopoly board.

[Franknburger]

I have lived in Riga for 6 months and Kharkiv for 2 years.

My partner is Latvian. She was in 1981 in the former ussr. Her father was born in Ukraine and her mother was born in Georgia. They have lived in Riga since 1979. They are russian speakers.

In 2008, they recieved a letter from the latvia home office. They were told by the home office that unless they spoke Latvian they would have there pension stopped. They were told to go on latvian speaking courses. They were both denied latvian passports. These are two people in there 60s.

Protection of the rights of ethno-linguistic minorities in Latvia could definitely be a lot better. The EU is regularly putting out comments, but they tend to go rather un-regarded and un-enforced:
http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/minorities/3_FCNMdocs/PDF_2nd_OP_Latvia_en.pdf

I guess if your parents-in-law had went before the European Court, they would have won the case, but, as you said, two people in their 60s, and probably not fluent in any of the EU's official languages..
In any case, this is another example where "the West" (in this case the EU) hasn't been too good in dealing with legitimate  Russian interests.

your telling people of crimea, kharkiv and donestsk that they have to live with these thugs in kiev who hate russians.

The last things I have heard was some 20 bn USD getting missed from the Ukrainian budget, while the twenty bank accounts of Yanukovich, family & friends that have been frozen in Switzerland and Austria contain some 7 bn USD, the origin of which isn't fully accounted for.

Thugs in Kiev - of course! But the fact that Yanukovich hates Russians is new to me - could you explain this in a little more detail? Also,  why should Klitschko, himself a Russian-speaker with limited command of Ukrainian, hate Russians?  

[Tender Branson]

Russia will invade and occupy Ukraine tomorrow morning it seems.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Russia will invade and occupy Ukraine tomorrow morning it seems.

All of Ukraine? I'm still far from being convinced.

[Franknburger]

Russia will invade and occupy Ukraine tomorrow morning it seems.

All of Ukraine? I'm still far from being convinced.

Considering that Kerry is expected to be in Kiev tomorrow, the timing indeed looks a bit weird.

[RogueBeaver]

Turkey: we won't let this become a TUR-RU issue.

[Mopsus]

For all the map fantasists, I repeat my challenge of earlier:

This is 1913. Draw a series of 'rational' ethnic boundaries. While keeping in mind that these majorities in many places were frequently waver thin... (and that cities were frequently inhabited by very different ethnic groups to the surrounding countryside... and also in many cases had large Jewish populations...).

Done:



G = Germany
H = Hungary
C = Croatia
R = Romania
I = Italy
S = Serbia
U = Reichskommissariat Ukraine