Pope grovels to Muslims

[Michael Z]

The Pope's remarks were hypocritical. It's not like bad things never happened under Christianity. That aside, the Arabs were providing progress in fields like mathematics and astronomy whilst Europeans were busy disembowling and beheading each other in the middle ages.

[Michael Z]

The Pope's remarks were hypocritical. It's not like bad things never happened under Christianity. That aside, the Arabs were providing progress in fields like mathematics and astronomy whilst Europeans were busy disembowling and beheading each other in the middle ages.

Again, you've focused on the one quote he made in the context of an entire speech

Again? It's the first time I've done it. Unless you're referring to others who've done the same.

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Oooh, I am seeking to silence a man. Lest we forget that he is merely the representative of all Catholics and officially God's representative on Earth. This is not some guy in a bar in downtown Portland we're talking about here.

And I'm not "seeking to silence" him. Don't be ridiculous. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of his words. That's not telling him to shut up. He can say as he please, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't misrepresent my viewpoint just for the sheer sake of putting your own point across.

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No, but then I'm not the Pope, ergo I wouldn't expect my words to be held in high esteem, as well they shouldn't.

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He didn't denounce extremism, he called the founder of Islam essentially uncivilised. That's not one and the same thing.

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Precisely! On both sides, hence what I said. Both religions, Islam and Christianity, are prone to spouting extremist fervour, as they have done in the past (hence my comment).

Frankly, most of the points you're making here bear absolutely no relevance to what I said (in fact, in the above case our viewpoints intertwine without you even noticing), and equally, I don't think you're necessarily in a position to judge my exact and precise understanding of his speech solely on one or two paragraphs I wrote. You're jumping to conclusions, in other words.

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I didn't say that, but then I suspect you're making a more general point here which doesn't necessarily refer to my quoted extract above.

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That's a fair point.

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The problem with the reaction is - how representative a picture are we getting?

[Michael Z]

Fortunately, Christianity has moved beyond the type of fervour that so often grips the Muslim world. Humanity does not have to be self-loathing because of the sins of its past; we evolve, we grow and we move on, recognizing mistakes in our past and warning against them in the future ... ideally, anyway. I personally think it's a shame that a miniscule part of an academic lecture has been blown so far out of proportion and, in the process, making the very point the Pope was trying to make in the first place.

That's a good point. But the trouble I see is that someone as intelligent as Ratzinger/Benedict XVI, and someone who clearky knows his stuff about public relations and the media (bearing in mind that he was, basically, in charge of the Vatican's PR for a considerable amount of time), should have been able to tell that this sort of thing could be taken out of context and be seen as inflammatory. Plus it's a far cry from the decidedly recionciliatory tone chosen by his predecessor, so it was almost bound to attract attention.

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Always difficult to tell; however, I haven't seen any prominent Muslims come forward to denounce the furor that is growing over this. Silence is acquiescence.
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I think it's like Lewis said, sometimes the silence is only there because the media in our countries don't pick up what a lot of Muslims may be saying. It's always easier to show some guy burning an effigy or thrashing an embassy or whatnot (that aside, I think a lot of these people are simply going nuts because they've been living under repressive dictatorships for so long that any outlet is a good outlet, which is virtually what happened in the riots over the Danish cartoons - heck, if I was living under a theocratic/autocratic dictatorship and the government suddenly said "Hey guys, go all out and thrash/burn something!", I probably would) because it plays into our perception of what Islam is all about, but whether it corresponds to reality is another matter entirely.

Oh yeah, and welcome back.   Where the sodding heck have you been?

[Michael Z]

The Pope's remarks were hypocritical. It's not like bad things never happened under Christianity. That aside, the Arabs were providing progress in fields like mathematics and astronomy whilst Europeans were busy disembowling and beheading each other in the middle ages.

So what you're saying is that what happened 500 years ago is more relevant and important than what is happening today?

Not at all. Firstly, it was the Pope who drew the comparison with 500 years ago (bearing in mind he was quoting a Byzantine emperor). Secondly, I merely pointed out that the Pope's comparison was hypocritical because he seemed to insinuate that Mohammed gave the world nothing but "things only evil and inhuman" when at the same time as these words were spoken by Manuel II the Christians were doing some intolerable things to the Jews and anyone who didn't follow their religion.

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I'm not justifying anything here, but I just don't see how the Pope's words can add anything to the current climate but more strife.

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However, most of their problems (and anger) are in one way or another related to Western policies, and I'm not just speaking of the colonial era of yore, but what's happening right now in Iraq, Lebanon, etc.