Does Corzine deserve to get re-elected?

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

I supported Forrester in 2005, but I must say I've been pleasantly surprised by the actions of Corzine.

Sure, he's made a number of mistakes, but he's one of the only New Jersey Democrats operating outside of the machine, and he's not afraid to make unpopular decisions (i.e., 7% sales tax) for the good of the state.

Last year's budget was a disaster.  Something HAD to be done, and Assembly Democrats were just going to push a weak-kneed Whitman/McGreevey style budget flub to shift the actual work off to a future administration, or just plain hope it fixed itself.

It wasn't going to fix itself.  There was a genuine budget hole that the state was not going to grow out of.  And he did the right thing: not only did he raise revenue, but he cut expenses across the board.

And though it caused some pain for the state in the short term, his political manuevering to get the Assembly to blink was brilliant.

Like I said, he's definitely made some mistakes: Carla Katz and the whole "monetization" deal (which I personally feel is a bad idea).  But if you think you're going to find a Democrat you like more than Corzine, you're nuts.  He's a bright, intelligent, fiscal whiz, and exactly what New Jersey needs right now.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Given that he'll likely be up against a typical New Jersey Republican - yes, obviously. I can't decide whether he deserves to be primaried... although anyone who could actually beat him in a primary would probably also be worse.

He'll be going up against Christopher Christie, it looks like, and he doesn't exactly qualify as a typical New Jersey Republican.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Given that he'll likely be up against a typical New Jersey Republican - yes, obviously. I can't decide whether he deserves to be primaried... although anyone who could actually beat him in a primary would probably also be worse.

He'll be going up against Christopher Christie, it looks like, and he doesn't exactly qualify as a typical New Jersey Republican.

From a cursory glance at Wiki and a few random links... I fail to see any phrase that might describe him equally well.

How's this for starters: unlike the typical New Jersey Republican, Christopher Christie actually has some accomplishments?

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

I basically noted that he looked posh and was from Morris County. That should be enough to sink him. And then there's his whole involvement into the apparently rather bogus (as far as NJ politicians go. ) corruption charges against Menendez. That's not going to help either.

Oh, I think Christie had good reason to dig into Menendez's past.  The 'Blue Jersey' charge of him being a partisan prosecutor just doesn't add up: don't forget, this is a guy that the Bush administration wanted to axe in 2006.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Here are some of his accomplishments:

Civil Unions, expect gay marriage within a year.
First budget in 6 years with no new taxes, tax increase
$2,300,000,000  in tax relief
20% reduction in property taxes in new budget
Ban on dual office holding
Strongest global warming bill in the country
Government transparency, "christmas tree" gifts (earmarks) available to view online
Stem Cell research referendum
Significant tax cut for low income families, described as "a double tax cut"

The ones in bold are certainly not accomplishments by my standards.  Aside from, the dual office ban has not taken effect, my property taxes are going up 24%, so really he does nothing according to your list

The ones in bold also happen to be supported by the overwhelming majority of New Jerseyans except for gay marriage which is just a majority. Those are only for this year so far. Also the ban on dual office holding was just signed into law or will be before the 30th. As for your property taxes, I doubt they went up 24% and you should expect your tax cut soon.
Since 1996, my property taxes have gone up by 50%, which is ridiculous. So I doubt yours have gone up by 24% in just one year.

I strongly advise you ask someone you know that lives in this area, because my taxes are going up 24%, although I doubt there is an article about it online.

Thats about as likely to be true as you being a libertarian. 

Finally you acknowledge!  However, my property taxes are going up 24%, which I guess is not really a state issue, however, I don't need any new state taxes when my property taxes are like that.  Are the town's reassesment last year we have gone through the roof.  When my parents moved in in the late 80s, the taxes were about $4,000 and next year they will be about $14,000

Dude, your property taxes?  Aren't you sixteen?

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Here are some of his accomplishments:

Civil Unions, expect gay marriage within a year.
First budget in 6 years with no new taxes, tax increase
$2,300,000,000  in tax relief
20% reduction in property taxes in new budget
Ban on dual office holding
Strongest global warming bill in the country
Government transparency, "christmas tree" gifts (earmarks) available to view online
Stem Cell research referendum
Significant tax cut for low income families, described as "a double tax cut"

The ones in bold are certainly not accomplishments by my standards.  Aside from, the dual office ban has not taken effect, my property taxes are going up 24%, so really he does nothing according to your list

The ones in bold also happen to be supported by the overwhelming majority of New Jerseyans except for gay marriage which is just a majority. Those are only for this year so far. Also the ban on dual office holding was just signed into law or will be before the 30th. As for your property taxes, I doubt they went up 24% and you should expect your tax cut soon.
Since 1996, my property taxes have gone up by 50%, which is ridiculous. So I doubt yours have gone up by 24% in just one year.

I strongly advise you ask someone you know that lives in this area, because my taxes are going up 24%, although I doubt there is an article about it online.

Thats about as likely to be true as you being a libertarian. 

Finally you acknowledge!  However, my property taxes are going up 24%, which I guess is not really a state issue, however, I don't need any new state taxes when my property taxes are like that.  Are the town's reassesment last year we have gone through the roof.  When my parents moved in in the late 80s, the taxes were about $4,000 and next year they will be about $14,000

Dude, your property taxes?  Aren't you sixteen?

Yeah, so?  How much disposable income my family has effects things like what kind of car I will get next year when I drive and what things I can afford to buy without having to get a job. 

If you're so into getting money for nothing, why aren't you a Democrat?

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

For most families, home appreciation is a mere paper gain that they won't be able to tap into until well into retirement.  It's unfair to say that a family could well afford a tripling of the tax rate because of a quadrupling of their home's value.

I do feel for Bergen County families right now: every dollar that goes to Ferriero's cronies (and there's lots of money changing hands -- Ferriero wouldn't be powerful if there weren't) comes straight from the taxpayers.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

I'll say that he does deserve re-election, as I am more than willing to give people second chances.  He made a horrible mistake, but he apologized, and I'm taking his word for it and giving him the benefit of the doubt.

That just means we don't run him out of the state, it doesn't mean we give him another term.  That's like if you are given the choice between a good human being a murderer who has apoligized.  You don't have to pick the murderer just because he has made good.

For the record, if Corzine is found guilty of murder, I will officially endorse his Republican opponent in 2009.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

1.  If they are paying $14,000 in property taxes the home is worth close to $1,000,000 if not more

Not necessarily.  My parents pay slightly less in property taxes ($12k+), and have a home valued at slightly more than $500,000.

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Doug Forrester was attacked in 2002 and 2005 for a similar single year tax hike when he was mayor of West Windsor -- it had to do with an emergency capital expense.  Agreed: 24% tax increases (and that's a MASSIVE increase) are almost exclusively caused by major -- and urgent -- issues where the township's hands are often tied.

Though honestly, through my research, I can't find a Bergen County town whose property taxes have jumped 24% in the last year.

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Being rich through home appreciation is not really being rich.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

When Kerry Healey (essentially) suggested such a thing, she was run out of town on a rail.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

I agree: ownership of a $800,000 to 1,000,000 house, regardless of location in New Jersey, puts you firmly in the upper class.  Once you dip down closer to $500,000 or $600,000, you're now talking middle class—often upper middle class—because a lot of families just got to that point through decades of appreciation.

If a family got to $1,000,000 through decades of appreciation, well—they were rich to get that house in the first place.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Want to see what $750,000 buys you in Rutherford?

http://homes.realtor.com/prop/1082424562

That same place would probably go for $250,000 where I used to live in Pennsylvania.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

I agree: ownership of a $800,000 to 1,000,000 house, regardless of location in New Jersey, puts you firmly in the upper class.  Once you dip down closer to $500,000 or $600,000, you're now talking middle class—often upper middle class—because a lot of families just got to that point through decades of appreciation.

If a family got to $1,000,000 through decades of appreciation, well—they were rich to get that house in the first place.

How much you're house has become worth has nothing to do with how much a family makes. How much your house is worth doesnt determine your class either. There are tons of homes in NJ that you'd be surprised such a piece of crap was worth so much money. Your last point doesnt make sense either.  My cousin, who lives in an upperclass neighborhood in northern Bergen county in the Saddle River area, not saying which town for privacy reasons, paid a little over $100,000 for their home in the late 80s. Today the home is worth 1.25 million.They were not rich to begin with. However if someone bought a home where I live for $100,000 in 1989 or whatever, that house would probably be worth around $300,000.

I will grant that there are exceptions to every rule.  Regardless, for the vast majority of cases, my point holds true.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

I agree: ownership of a $800,000 to 1,000,000 house, regardless of location in New Jersey, puts you firmly in the upper class.  Once you dip down closer to $500,000 or $600,000, you're now talking middle class—often upper middle class—because a lot of families just got to that point through decades of appreciation.

If a family got to $1,000,000 through decades of appreciation, well—they were rich to get that house in the first place.

How much you're house has become worth has nothing to do with how much a family makes. How much your house is worth doesnt determine your class either. There are tons of homes in NJ that you'd be surprised such a piece of crap was worth so much money. Your last point doesnt make sense either.  My cousin, who lives in an upperclass neighborhood in northern Bergen county in the Saddle River area, not saying which town for privacy reasons, paid a little over $100,000 for their home in the late 80s. Today the home is worth 1.25 million.They were not rich to begin with. However if someone bought a home where I live for $100,000 in 1989 or whatever, that house would probably be worth around $300,000.

I will grant that there are exceptions to every rule.  Regardless, for the vast majority of cases, my point holds true.

In most cases you are correct. Most people would sell there homes to make the money and be more financially stable at another house.

Again, I strongly disagree with you.  Most people get very attached to their hometowns.  Especially if they've been living there for 30+ years, which would almost have to be the case to have a million dollar home.

There isn't exactly a huge trend towards downsizing, except among retirees, and downsizing is a tradition there, anyway.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Again, I strongly disagree with you.  Most people get very attached to their hometowns.  Especially if they've been living there for 30+ years, which would almost have to be the case to have a million dollar home.

There isn't exactly a huge trend towards downsizing, except among retirees, and downsizing is a tradition there, anyway.

So then you agree that people will have a home that can be worth over a million and yet they can still be lower middle class? Because you just made the case.

No, I really think you're reading a lot more into that than is actually there.

Here's the problem with "lower middle class" families living in a $1,000,000 home: the numbers really don't work out.

First, lower middle class is roughly defined as having a yearly income between $32,500–60,000, with a heavy emphasis on the lower end of the range.  For the purposes of this demonstration, I'll set the income level at $40,000/year.

First, payroll taxes.  Federal/state taxes will be at a minimum thanks to a healthy property tax deduction, but they'll still cost the hypothetical family $2,300/year ($40k income|$15k deduction for property tax|2 withholding allowances).  You can't avoid the flat Social Security/Medicare/NJ Unemployment taxes, and they add up to an additional $3,430/year.

If they're living in a million dollar home, they've had to have been there for at least thirty years, so they probably won't have a mortgage payment at this point.  We'll assume the cost of that is zero.  (Which is good, becuase they wouldn't be able to afford one, as you'll soon see.)

First, property taxes on a place like that would probably be close to $15,000/year.  I'm not going to take into account any NJ Saver Rebates or the like, because they're unreliable to say the least.

Next, you'll need homeowners insurance, and coverage on a $1,000,000 home is pricey.  $4,000/year is not an unreasonable estimate (~0.033% monthly).

Second, maintenance will be a huge factor.  If they've been around the home for 30+ years, it will be in a near constant need for repairs (unless it was recently completely renovated, in which case there'd be a significant recurring loan payment).  In general, the estimate is that you'll spend 1% of the purchase price on repairs/maintenance every year.  That's probably exaggerated here, but still, an aging house will need a new roof, a new furnace, electrical work, painting/siding, etc.  You don't see too many million dollar homes in disrepair.  Let's budget a fourth of the recommended amount for this, $2,500/year.

Oh, and utilities.  Maybe $75/month on electricity; $50/month on cable; $40/month on phone; $2,000/year on gas (heat/hot water); another $400/year on sewer/water.  Hopefully, trash pickup is part of the property taxes for this poor family.  That's $4,380 per year total.

Already, we've eaten up $31,610 (79% of income) in taxes and home expenses alone.  We're not even talking commuting expenses (how many Bergen County residents can walk to work?), food, clothing, doctor's visits/prescription drugs (an increasingly large chunk of change for a family that's old enough to have stayed in one house for 30 years)...

...I'd say that a "lower middle class" family owning a $1,000,000 house is very very VERY rare indeed, even in New Jersey.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

The sad thing is the hypothetical $1,000,000 home we're talking about would likely be a tear down: whomever buys it is paying for the land.

A thirty or forty year old home isn't worth $6,000 a month.  I don't care how nice Saddle River is.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

The sad thing is the hypothetical $1,000,000 home we're talking about would likely be a tear down: whomever buys it is paying for the land.

A thirty or forty year old home isn't worth $6,000 a month.  I don't care how nice Saddle River is.

Speaking of low taxes, Saddle River's are among the lowest.  When you have no schools and a small police and fire force, that's not hard to do.

Eh, my parents live in Alexandria Township, which has no high school and no police station (they rely on State Troopers), and their taxes are well over $10k.