Is Iraq about to turn into Iran 2.0?

[Smash255]

Um, Chalabi is HEAVILY linked to Iran. He was passing info to them. Why do you think the US raided his house awhile ago?

Evidence, please.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/21/iraq.chalabi/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120535,00.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001935950_iranchalabi22.html
http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=5115
http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/02/1086058913867.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true

Bush completley changed his story on Chalabi.  He started to mention that he only met with Chalabi in passing or something of that regard, however Chalabi sat DIRECTLY behind Laura Bush at the 2004 SOTU.  Interesting that someone who you barley know sits right behind your wife at a major speech...

[The Duke]

Um, Chalabi is HEAVILY linked to Iran. He was passing info to them. Why do you think the US raided his house awhile ago?

Evidence, please.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/21/iraq.chalabi/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120535,00.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001935950_iranchalabi22.html
http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=5115
http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/02/1086058913867.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true

Bush completley changed his story on Chalabi.  He started to mention that he only met with Chalabi in passing or something of that regard, however Chalabi sat DIRECTLY behind Laura Bush at the 2004 SOTU.  Interesting that someone who you barley know sits right behind your wife at a major speech...

There's no evidence in those stoires!  Repeatedly, they claim to have "rock solid" evidence, but they never produce it.  Don't show me claims that someone says they have evidence, show me the actual evidence itself.

If I said that someone was guilty of murder, and ad rock solid evidence, would you assume I had that evidence, bypass any actual investigation, and put the person in jail?  Of course not.  You'd want the actual evidence.  Yet here, you provide not one iota of evidence!

[Smash255]

Um, Chalabi is HEAVILY linked to Iran. He was passing info to them. Why do you think the US raided his house awhile ago?

Evidence, please.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/21/iraq.chalabi/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120535,00.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001935950_iranchalabi22.html
http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=5115
http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/02/1086058913867.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true

Bush completley changed his story on Chalabi.  He started to mention that he only met with Chalabi in passing or something of that regard, however Chalabi sat DIRECTLY behind Laura Bush at the 2004 SOTU.  Interesting that someone who you barley know sits right behind your wife at a major speech...

There's no evidence in those stoires!  Repeatedly, they claim to have "rock solid" evidence, but they never produce it.  Don't show me claims that someone says they have evidence, show me the actual evidence itself.

If I said that someone was guilty of murder, and ad rock solid evidence, would you assume I had that evidence, bypass any actual investigation, and put the person in jail?  Of course not.  You'd want the actual evidence.  Yet here, you provide not one iota of evidence!

Then why did Bush backpeddle like a mad man in regards to his relationship with Chalabi

[The Duke]

Probably because someone told him that Chalabi was dirty, emphatically claimed to have evidence, and Bush believed him without asking any mroe questions.

[2952-0-0]

We elft Iraq two days ahead of schedule?  Someone better tell the 130,000 Marines and Army that.

I'd like you to dig up the thread where I endorsed apartheid.  I'd be happy to bring up the thread where I called DeKlerk one of the greatest African leaders ever, though.  I have said, and do believe that black voters in South Africa keep voting ANC out of bitterness towards the whites, and it has been to their own detriment.  It is a bad decision and their country is worse off than it should and could be, but I've never endorsed apartheid and I challenge you to find where I did.

Yes, remember? On June 28 when everyone said it was going to be on June 30.

The ANC has turned South Africa into a rathole.

They are the single most destructive force in any Demcoratic country in the world right now.

The only reason they win is because the blacks in South Africa are too pissed off to think straight.

Still pining for Apartheid? eh? eh?

Hardly.  But remember that it was DeKlerk, not the ANC, that dismantled apartheid.

What bothers me is that because of Nelson Mandela's incompetence, a generation of children in South Africa will grow up too illiterate to read this message.

I guess that spells it out. Yes, you never really said apartheid was good but still...you imply that blacks are too dumb to rule themselves.



And one last thing, that picture of Iraqis waving the US flag on the thread? Yes, it's always true that when there's a regime change people welcome it. Same happened in Germany with Hitler, Russia with Lenin, China with Mao, Cuba with Castro, and...

We didn't leave Iraq two days ahead of schedule, we transferred sovereignty two days ahead of schedule.  Idiot.

And I didn't endorse Apartheid, in fact I specifically said I din't endorse apartheid.  Al sarcastically implied that any opposition to the ANC was equivalent to apartheid, and I pointeed out that this was incorrect.  Idiot.

I guess you once again are La Canadienne.

Well I meant transferring sovereignty, then. Whatever you're doing,squirreling from your problem ahead of time doesn't tell Zarqawi something positive.

Okay, fine. You never really endorsed apartheid but elsewhere...umm...you're also a flip-flopper:

In August you complained that all the Arab countries were not free and wondered what they have against freedom. A few days later I pointed out it was ironic for America to "liberate" a dictatorship from bases in other dictatorships like Qatar, Kuwait, Jordan, etc... And then ou said that these countries "hardly count as dictatorships". Partisanship. Ahh. Gotta love it.

Tell you what, Mexico isn't too far from where you live so why don't you move there and see what people there think of America. Then you know what I mean by "America's reputation is tarnished."

[The Duke]

Squireling away from our problems?  I reiterate, 130,000 Marines beg to differ.

So you admit I never endorsed Apartheid, and in so doing admit that your ad hominem against was totally illegitimate.

A country not being free is different form a country being a dictatorship like Iraq was.  They are not truly free, but they are not dictatorships either.  Kuwait has an elected government, for example.  Jordan has econoomic and political freedoms for citizens.  There is a key difference between the behavior of these ations and Iraq, if you can't see that then there's really nothing anyone can say to help you out.

Your right I do live near Mexico.  Mexicans seem to be quite fond of America since over a million Latin American immigrants come here each year.  You don't immigrate to a country you hate.

[Beet]

No.

[2952-0-0]

Squireling away from our problems?  I reiterate, 130,000 Marines beg to differ.

So you admit I never endorsed Apartheid, and in so doing admit that your ad hominem against was totally illegitimate.

A country not being free is different form a country being a dictatorship like Iraq was.  They are not truly free, but they are not dictatorships either.  Kuwait has an elected government, for example.  Jordan has econoomic and political freedoms for citizens.  There is a key difference between the behavior of these ations and Iraq, if you can't see that then there's really nothing anyone can say to help you out.

Your right I do live near Mexico.  Mexicans seem to be quite fond of America since over a million Latin American immigrants come here each year.  You don't immigrate to a country you hate.

Yes, even if it's just the government. Bush tried to delay the elections until it was too late, and you know what? the results will be announced in three hours time and it won't be a puppet state, I can assure you.

Second, I don't think a regime that doesn't allow women from voting (Kuwait) and practices intimidation of opposition supporters (Jordan) and public beheadings and cutting off the hands off theives (Saudi) is democratic, no? UNless if you change the definition of democracy.

And about Mexico, yes. Go to any village there and they will view their northern neughbour as arrogant and everything. They migate north in droves for money. And they bloody well are aware of, say the ghetto culture of south-central LA. Gotta love Hollywood.

[Jake]

Well, if all the Mexicans hate us, I guess we'll have to put the militia on the border and shot their asses when they stroll across.

[2952-0-0]

Well, if all the Mexicans hate us, I guess we'll have to put the militia on the border and shot their asses when they stroll across.

Legally though. I work. I think my boss is a bit arrogant but I keep my views to myself. How do I pay for education then

[The Duke]

Yes, even if it's just the government. Bush tried to delay the elections until it was too late, and you know what? the results will be announced in three hours time and it won't be a puppet state, I can assure you.

Suddenly the military isn't part of the govenrment?  Bush did not try to delay the elections.  He was urged to by people outside the Administration, but declined, stating it would result in a loss of US credibility not ot follow thorugh on our promise.

You're not making much sense, and you don't seem to have much of a grasp of the facts.

Second, I don't think a regime that doesn't allow women from voting (Kuwait) and practices intimidation of opposition supporters (Jordan) and public beheadings and cutting off the hands off theives (Saudi) is democratic, no? UNless if you change the definition of democracy.

I didn't say they were democracies, now did I?  I said they weren't dictatorships like Saddam's Iraq, and they're not.  All three are better on human rights, and all three are moving towards democracy at some future date, but I did not describe them as democracies, so don't invent a position, attribute it to me, and then turn around and say my position is wrong, when in fact I never held that position to begin with.

And about Mexico, yes. Go to any village there and they will view their northern neughbour as arrogant and everything. They migate north in droves for money. And they bloody well are aware of, say the ghetto culture of south-central LA. Gotta love Hollywood.

You've failed to connect your point about ghetto culture to this discussion, but anyway.  The point is, people may btich and moan, but the truth is the don't go to a country they hate, and the hispanics I know are often among the most patriotic people in this country.


Lets recap, shall we?

You have made multiple inaccurate statements of fact, accused me of supporting apartheid, slandered the character of Ahmed Chalabi without presenting evidence against him, etc.  After all of these accusation, you have either admitte you were wrong, or have simply dropped the point and acted as if nothing had happenned.  You have made a total and complete fool of yourself in public and if you had any shame, you'd flagellate yourself in repentance.

[2952-0-0]

You have made multiple inaccurate statements of fact, accused me of supporting apartheid, slandered the character of Ahmed Chalabi without presenting evidence against him, etc.  After all of these accusation, you have either admitte you were wrong, or have simply dropped the point and acted as if nothing had happenned.  You have made a total and complete fool of yourself in public and if you had any shame, you'd flagellate yourself in repentance.

You implied that apartheid is better than South Africa of today.

And yes, he was convicted of bank fraud in Jordan. Get over with it. Not to mention how his house was raided for selling secrets to Iran. And now we see Allawi, who did work under Saddam's secret police at one point.

Your second point, umm, yes. They aren't democracies, but that's like saying it's okay to murder one person because there are serial killers out there. Next thing: can I say how human rights groups criticise the Stans, none of which (except Afghanistan, and even that's iffish) are democratic? And how those regimes are backed by western nations? Remember how Bush said in his SOTU speech that he wants to spread freedom abroad? By that, he means the freedom to back regimes that oppress their people, not tthe freedom of those people to live how they want.

Finally, yes Mexicans bitch and moan, but we all have to work now o we? I don't like welfare.

So? What do we get there? Just don't mistake The Onion for a real news source.

[2952-0-0]

You've failed to connect your point about ghetto culture to this discussion, but anyway.  The point is, people may btich and moan, but the truth is the don't go to a country they hate, and the hispanics I know are often among the most patriotic people in this country.

To this, well it's obvious anyone envys the rich. But a nation is a nation and everyone has to get together.



You need help.

[The Duke]

And now we come full circle.

I bring up your abandoned line of attack about Chalabi, in response to which you bring up the same tired anti-Chalabi garbage.  To which I repeat my rebuttal: If the police raid a persons home, does that mean they are guilty?  Of course not, and yet this is exactly what you imply when you say that Chalabi's house being raided proves that he was selling secrets to Iran.

You continue on this nonsense about apartheid.  Yet you have still failed to produce any serious evidence to back up your allegations.  The last time you tried, I got you to admit that your "evidence" was garbage.  Care to go in complete circles on this issue as well?

[2952-0-0]

And now we come full circle.

I bring up your abandoned line of attack about Chalabi, in response to which you bring up the same tired anti-Chalabi garbage.  To which I repeat my rebuttal: If the police raid a persons home, does that mean they are guilty?  Of course not, and yet this is exactly what you imply when you say that Chalabi's house being raided proves that he was selling secrets to Iran.

You continue on this nonsense about apartheid.  Yet you have still failed to produce any serious evidence to back up your allegations.  The last time you tried, I got you to admit that your "evidence" was garbage.  Care to go in complete circles on this issue as well?

Well, it's still true that Chalabi was found guilty of bank fraud while he lived in Jordan. And that before the Iraq election the Iraqi justice ministry said they were to catch Chalabi and hand him over to the ICC. Oh and about his house being raided? That at least got Bush to dump this guy and opt for another guy who worked for Saddam's secret police. Way to liberate a country!

[The Duke]

And now we come full circle.

I bring up your abandoned line of attack about Chalabi, in response to which you bring up the same tired anti-Chalabi garbage.  To which I repeat my rebuttal: If the police raid a persons home, does that mean they are guilty?  Of course not, and yet this is exactly what you imply when you say that Chalabi's house being raided proves that he was selling secrets to Iran.

You continue on this nonsense about apartheid.  Yet you have still failed to produce any serious evidence to back up your allegations.  The last time you tried, I got you to admit that your "evidence" was garbage.  Care to go in complete circles on this issue as well?

Well, it's still true that Chalabi was found guilty of bank fraud while he lived in Jordan. And that before the Iraq election the Iraqi justice ministry said they were to catch Chalabi and hand him over to the ICC. Oh and about his house being raided? That at least got Bush to dump this guy and opt for another guy who worked for Saddam's secret police. Way to liberate a country!

You mean the notoriously corrupt Jordanian court system?  The country that just a few posts ago you said had a government that locked people up for their politics?

Allawi a Saddamite?  You mean the guy that tried to lead a CIA coup to overthrow Saddam in 1996?

[2952-0-0]

You mean the notoriously corrupt Jordanian court system?  The country that just a few posts ago you said had a government that locked people up for their politics?

Allawi a Saddamite?  You mean the guy that tried to lead a CIA coup to overthrow Saddam in 1996?

Yes, get over that. Allawi worked for Saddam's secret plice at one point. And about bank fraud, umm, well, why didn't he criticese the Jordanian court system when he lived in London? Is Blair suddenly a dictator?

[The Duke]

And about bank fraud, umm, well, why didn't he criticese the Jordanian court system when he lived in London? Is Blair suddenly a dictator?

Ever since the conviction was handed down, he has criticized the Jordanian court system.

You missed the point, anyway.  The point is you're being unserious in trying to have things both ways.

Either Jordan is a corrupt autocracy that abuses private citizens so Bush is bad for dealing with them -OR- Jordan has a valid system of legal protections for citizens so the Chalabi conviction is unimpeachable.

You can't have it both ways.

[2952-0-0]

I guess you accept that Allawi worked for Saddam's secret police then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyad_Allawi

And that when I posted that he shot six people personally, you said it's okay not for those people to go through a trial. Remember?

[The Duke]

Did I ever say I didn't accept that Allawi was in Saddam's secret police?  All I said was that its dishonest to present only partial pieces of information to people.  To present Allawi as a Ba'athist thug is akin to presenting Rommel as a Nazi stooge.  Rommel was a German general, but he gave his life in a plot to overthrow Hitler.  Just as Allawi risked his life trying to undo what Saddam had done.  Allawi isn't my favorite guy on Earth, but I don't like people presenting only partial pieces of information.

As for shooting six people, treatment of military prisoners is held to a different standard than civilian crime like bank fraud.  It always has been, in every country I know of, including this one.  To pretend that shooting six insurgents is akin to political convictions over bank fraud is self-evidently ludicrous.

You may or may not realize that you still have nothing but invective and innuendo against Chalabi.

[2952-0-0]

Did I ever say I didn't accept that Allawi was in Saddam's secret police?  All I said was that its dishonest to present only partial pieces of information to people.  To present Allawi as a Ba'athist thug is akin to presenting Rommel as a Nazi stooge.  Rommel was a German general, but he gave his life in a plot to overthrow Hitler.  Just as Allawi risked his life trying to undo what Saddam had done.  Allawi isn't my favorite guy on Earth, but I don't like people presenting only partial pieces of information.

As for shooting six people, treatment of military prisoners is held to a different standard than civilian crime like bank fraud.  It always has been, in every country I know of, including this one.  To pretend that shooting six insurgents is akin to political convictions over bank fraud is self-evidently ludicrous.

You may or may not realize that you still have nothing but invective and innuendo against Chalabi.

You okay with this guy leading a country that was supposedly "liberated"? And besides, the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thought is dangerous. Look at it: the west helped Osama and the taloban in Afghanistan and let'ssee what we have now: it's greast what he did, since that's 3000 dead Democrats, right?

And besides, when you want to be president of a country you should know better than to cook the books, or shoot six people without a trial. Neither of these people are justifiable.

[The Duke]

The US did not train Osama, nro were we the primary sponsor of Saddam's Iraq (that distinction belongs to the USSR and France, the left's two favorite countries).

Taliban is not spelled with an "o".

I am okay with Allawi leading Iraq, just as I am comfortable with Dwight Eisenhower being President of the US.  Killing enemy soldiers doesn't make you a bad person in and of itself.

Who said the enemy of my enemy is my friend?  All I said was that its okay for Allawi to kill terrorists.  I actually appreciate a head of state willing to to some of the killing on his own.

I will presume that the "cooking the books" referenmce is another line against Chalabi, to which I reply that you have still produced no idicting evidence against him.  In fact, you haven't even produced circumstantial evidence against him.

I also reiterate, if you think it is customary for enemy soldiers to get a trial, then you know absolutely nothing about legal history.

[2952-0-0]

The US did not train Osama

Read a history book. The west clearly gave aid to religious extremists in Afghanistan just because they opposed the Russians. And it was reckoned that if the Soviets had access to the Indian Ocean (Afghanistan being just 400km away) the they win the Cold War.

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Again, the entire western world aided this guy. Saying the US didn't help as much as France did is like saying it's okay to murder one person since there are serial killers out there.

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You're a complete dumbass.

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That's a typo

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That kills America's claim that it's for democracy.

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Without trials? Without warrents or anything? The Red Cross says about 70% of Abu Gharib inmates are innocent.

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You're heartless. Let's see George Bush rampaging into prisons and shooting it up, then. In fact, let's round up everyone who disagrees with the Bushies, call them terrorists and kill them. Yeah. Let's make Hitler spin in his grave. Seriously though, Reuters says that some Iraqis were beaten up for making anti-occupation statements.

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I have now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi

And besides, if Bush was thinking Chalabi is innocent why did he dump this guy for PM?

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So the Geneva Convention never existed? Strange. Oh, and the six people werent soldiers; they were insurgents.

And what about this

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/02/iraq.oil.smuggle/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/ wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec29?language=printer

[2952-0-0]

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/047/wash/Pentagon_spending_more_per_sol:.shtml

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=2330

I get that...

[The Duke]

The US did not train Osama[quote/]
Read a history book. The west clearly gave aid to religious extremists in Afghanistan just because they opposed the Russians. And it was reckoned that if the Soviets had access to the Indian Ocean (Afghanistan being just 400km away) the they win the Cold War.

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And that place under the bridge you live is getting crowded. NixonNow, Nomo, Philip. Shira, etc...

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That's a typo

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That kills America's claim that it's for democracy.

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Without trials? Without warrents or anything? The Red Cross says about 70% of Abu Gharib inmates are innocent.

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You're heartless. Let's see George Bush rampaging into prisons and shooting it up, then. In fact, let's round up everyone who disagrees with the Bushies, call them terrorists and kill them. Yeah. Let's make Hitler spin in his grave. Seriously though, Reuters says that some Iraqis were beaten up for making anti-occupation statements.

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I have now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi

And besides, if Bush was thinking Chalabi is innocent why did he dump this guy for PM?

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So the Geneva Convention never existed? Strange. Oh, and the six people werent soldiers; they were insurgents.

[/quote]

Please fix your post if you expect a response.