Mideast Assembly Thread

[Junkie]

Just checking in.  If nobody would object I will take a stab at the DUI bill.

[Junkie]

Here is my draft of a new DUI bill:


MIDEAST DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF AN INTOXICANT OR OTHER DRUG ACT

1.)   Definitions:

a.   In this act:

i.    "Drive" means the exercise of physical control over the speed and direction of a motor vehicle while it is in motion.

ii.    "Operate" means the physical manipulation or activation of any of the controls of a motor vehicle necessary to put it in motion.

iii.   “Motor Vehicle” means any self-propelled means of transportation, including but not limited to automobiles, motorcycles, snowmobiles, airplanes, motorboats, scooters, trucks, or any other self-propelled vehicle capable of operating on regional highways

2.)   No person may drive or operate a motor vehicle while:

a.   Under the influence of an intoxicant, a controlled substance, a controlled substance analog or any combination of an intoxicant, a controlled substance and a controlled substance analog, under the influence of any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or under the combined influence of an intoxicant and any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving; or

b.   The person has a prohibited alcohol concentration.

c.    A person may be charged with and a prosecutor may proceed upon a complaint based upon a violation of any combination of  Section (2) paragraph (a),  or (b) for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence. If the person is charged with violating any combination of Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b),  the offenses shall be joined. If the person is found guilty of any combination of Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b)  for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence, there shall be a single conviction for purposes of sentencing and for purposes of counting convictions under this statute. Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b)  each require proof of a fact for conviction which the others do not require.

d.    Penalties for violation of Section (2)

i.   For a first offense, shall forfeit not less than $150 nor more than $300 and a suspension of a driver’s license for not more than six months.

ii.   Shall be fined not less than $350 nor more than $1,100 and imprisoned for not more than 6 months if the number of convictions previous to the date of the current offense within a 10-year period, equals 2, and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than nine months.

iii.   Shall be fined not less than $600 nor more than $2,000 and imprisoned for not more than 12 months if the number of convictions previous to the date of the current offense within a 10-year period, equals 3 or 4 , and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 12 months.

iv.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $3,000 and imprisoned for not more than 3 years if the number of convictions previous to the date of the current offense within a 10-year period, equals 5 or more, and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 18 months.

3.)    It is unlawful for any person to cause injury to another person by the operation of a vehicle while:

a.    Under the influence of an intoxicant, a controlled substance, a controlled substance analog or any combination of an intoxicant, a controlled substance and a controlled substance analog, under the influence of any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or under the combined influence of an intoxicant and any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving; or

b.    The person has a prohibited alcohol concentration.

c.   A person may be charged with and a prosecutor may proceed upon a complaint based upon a violation of any combination of  Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b), for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence. If the person is charged with violating any combination of Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b),  the offenses shall be joined. If the person is found guilty of any combination of Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b)  for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence, there shall be a single conviction for purposes of sentencing and for purposes of counting convictions under this statute. Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b),  each require proof of a fact for conviction which the others do not require.

d.   In an action under this subsection, the defendant has a defense if he or she proves by a preponderance of the evidence that the injury would have occurred even if he or she had been exercising due care and he or she had not been under the influence of an intoxicant, a controlled substance, a controlled substance analog or a combination thereof, under the influence of any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or under the combined influence of an intoxicant and any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or did not have a prohibited alcohol concentration described under Section (3) Paragraph (b).

e.    Penalties for violation of Section (3)

i.   Shall be fined not less than $600 nor more than $2,000 and imprisoned for not more than 12 months if the number of convictions, previous to the date of the current offense within a 10-year period, equals 3 or  less , and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 12 months.

ii.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $3,000 and imprisoned for not more than 3 years if the number of convictions previous to the date of the current offense within a 10-year period, equals 4 or more, and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 18 months.

[Junkie]

4.)    If a person has not attained the legal drinking age of 18, the person may not drive or operate a motor vehicle while he or she has an alcohol concentration of more than 0.0 but not more than 0.08. One penalty for violation of this subsection is suspension of a person's operating privilege for a period of six months. If a person arrested for a violation of this subsection refuses to take a breathalyzer test, the refusal is a separate violation and the person is subject to revocation of the person's operating privilege for a period of six months.

5.)    No person may drive or operate or be on duty time with respect to a commercial motor vehicle under any of the following circumstances:

a.   Under the influence of an intoxicant, a controlled substance, a controlled substance analog or any combination of an intoxicant, a controlled substance and a controlled substance analog, under the influence of any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or under the combined influence of an intoxicant and any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving; or

b.   While having an alcohol concentration above 0.0. or

c.    Within 4 hours of having consumed or having been under the influence of an intoxicating beverage, regardless of its alcohol content, or

d.    While possessing an intoxicating beverage, regardless of its alcohol content. This
subdivision does not apply to possession of an intoxicating beverage if the beverage is unopened and is manifested and transported as part of a shipment.

e.    A person may be charged with and a prosecutor may proceed upon a complaint based upon a violation of any combination of  Section (5) paragraph (a), or (b), for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence. If the person is charged with violating any combination of Section (5) paragraph (a), or (b),  the offenses shall be joined. If the person is found guilty of any combination of Section (5) paragraph (a), or (b)  for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence, there shall be a single conviction for purposes of sentencing and for purposes of counting convictions under this statute. Section (5) paragraph (a), or (b),  each require proof of a fact for conviction which the others do not require.

f.   Penalties for violation of Section (5)

i.   Shall be fined not less than $600 nor more than $2,000 and imprisoned for not more than 12 months if the number of convictions, previous to the date of the current offense within a 10-year period, equals 3 or  less , and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 12 months.

ii.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $3,000 and imprisoned for not more than 3 years if the number of convictions previous to the date of the current offense within a 10-year period, equals 4 or more, and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 18 months.

6.)    No person may cause injury to another person by the operation of a commercial motor vehicle under any of the following circumstances:

a.   Under the influence of an intoxicant, a controlled substance, a controlled substance analog or any combination of an intoxicant, a controlled substance and a controlled substance analog, under the influence of any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or under the combined influence of an intoxicant and any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving; or

b.   While having an alcohol concentration above 0.0. or

c.    Within 4 hours of having consumed or having been under the influence of an intoxicating beverage, regardless of its alcohol content, or

d.    While possessing an intoxicating beverage, regardless of its alcohol content. This subdivision does not apply to possession of an intoxicating beverage if the beverage is unopened and is manifested and transported as part of a shipment.

e.   Penalties for violation of Section (6)

i.   Shall be fined not less than $600 nor more than $2,000 and imprisoned for not more than 12 months if the number of convictions, previous to the date of the current offense within a 10-year period, equals 3 or  less , and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 12 months.

ii.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $3,000 and imprisoned for not more than 3 years if the number of convictions previous to the date of the current offense within a 10-year period, equals 4 or more, and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 18 months.

f.    A person may be charged with and a prosecutor may proceed upon a complaint based upon a violation of any combination of  Section (6) paragraph (a), or (b), for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence. If the person is charged with violating any combination of Section (6) paragraph (a), or (b),  the offenses shall be joined. If the person is found guilty of any combination of Section (6) paragraph (a), or (b)  for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence, there shall be a single conviction for purposes of sentencing and for purposes of counting convictions under this statute. Section (6) paragraph (a), or (b),  each require proof of a fact for conviction which the others do not require.

7.)    If there was a minor passenger under 16 years of age in the motor vehicle at the time of the violation that gave rise to the conviction under Sections (2), Paragraph (d) subparagraph
(i)  the person shall be fined not less than $350 nor more than $1,100 and imprisoned for not less than 5 days nor more than 6 months.

8.)    If there was a minor passenger under 16 years of age in the motor vehicle at the time of the violation that gave rise to the conviction under all other sections besides Section (2), Paragraph (d), subparagraph (i)  the applicable minimum and maximum fines and imprisonment  for the conviction are doubled.

[Junkie]

Thanks Badger.  I based it somewhat on Wisconsin and also on the second DUI Mideastern statute that I believe you helped write.

As far as sixth offenses, I have no problem with more than 18 months.  I actually believe in more than that, but since the current Mideastern law only had a fine, I thought I should keep it lower to see how people react.

In Wisconsin, we do not have jail for first offenses.  I agree with this.  Most first offenses are fairly minor and I do believe in giving most first time offenders a break.

As far as minimum jail or driver's license suspension.  I did not include that because I do not believe in mandatory minimums.  I believe it takes the discretion away from prosecutors and judges who are employed to exercise discretion.  They are few and far between, but I believe there are cases when jail is not appropriate.

The aggravating situations for a first offense that might require jail (accident, commercial driver, minor in the vehicle) I believe are appropriately addressed in those areas of the statute.

Also, refusals would count against in terms of future offenses, but you are right, they do not include jail time.

If people believe that the statute could be better, I am more than open to suggestions in how to write it better.  It is my first attempt.

[Junkie]

That's a lot to read.... lol.  I'll read that later.

I agree.  It grew as I tried to deal with all the issues.  I apparently haven't gotten them all...just look at Badger's comments.  One of the reasons I love him is that he is often right.

I agree with the refusal comment.  We should comply with Federal law.  Either of the two approaches will work.

The points as to increasing penalties is also sound.  Maybe we should change "10 years" to "lifetime" after the second offense.

In terms of the first offense, in Wisconsin it is a municipal violation, not a crime, and their are benefits to that.  We use resumption of the driver's license to enforce compliance with treatment, et. al., instead of probation.  If people don't like it, how about stealing something from Illinois where first offenses are expunged from the record upon successful completion (but still count for future offenses).  In that way, first time offenders don't get saddled with a criminal conviction if they take the treatment they clearly need, but we do not let anyone take advantage of the system and become perpetual drunk drivers.

Let me know what you think.

[Junkie]

I will be making some of the changes we have talked about.  Please give me time, as writing this thing is a little like writing computer code.  I have to go line by line to make sure it still makes sense.  As Badger pointed out, I already missed one area, so I am trying to fix that.

[Junkie]

Agenda:

MIDEAST DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF AN INTOXICANT OR OTHER DRUG ACT
a.   Junkie will introduce the rewritten version after the previous debate over the bill, suggestions, and other comments given.
b.   Debate the final version (or revise again)
c.   Vote

Educational Incentives Act
a.   Bring forward the bill to debate with no objections since debate has ceased for over 48 hours in about two hours (due to Inks’ last comment)
b.   Allow for the modification or amending of the bill
c.   Consider not voting in order to place this in the budget (or specify in the bill that this will not be re-booted in the final version of the budget)

The Budget
a.   Complete spending draft
b.   Complete revenue draft
c.   Debate/Revise/Amend
d.   Vote

Sound good everyone?

Yes.

[Junkie]

As far as the Educational Incentives Act --

Aye

[Junkie]

Guys, I really don't see myself voting for this.  I'm not a solid "NAY", so if you guys want to sway me, give it your best shot.

Me neither, but this legislation in this shape will bankrupt us by funding the educations of wealthy people's kids who don't need regional funding and scholarships. Nobody realizes that, no?

I had the same concerns. However, as the funding comes from a tax on smokes (which as a smoker would cost me more money) it will be a self-contained, self-funded project.  This is of course the intelligent way to increase government spending.  And as one of favorite politicians stated, taxing something you would just as soon have less of is not inviolation of my conservative leanings.

[Junkie]

Okay.  I know everyone has been holding their breath.  Here goes:


MIDEAST DRIVING UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF AN INTOXICANT OR OTHER DRUG ACT

1.)   Definitions:

a.   In this act:

i.    "Drive" means the exercise of physical control over the speed and direction of a motor vehicle while it is in motion.

ii.    "Operate" means the physical manipulation or activation of any of the controls of a motor vehicle necessary to put it in motion.

iii.   “Motor Vehicle” means any self-propelled means of transportation, including but not limited to automobiles, motorcycles, snowmobiles, airplanes, motorboats, scooters, trucks, or any other self-propelled vehicle capable of operating on regional highways

2.)   No person may drive or operate a motor vehicle while:

a.   Under the influence of an intoxicant, a controlled substance, a controlled substance analog or any combination of an intoxicant, a controlled substance and a controlled substance analog, under the influence of any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or under the combined influence of an intoxicant and any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving; or

b.   The person has a prohibited alcohol concentration.

c.    A person may be charged with and a prosecutor may proceed upon a complaint based upon a violation of any combination of  Section (2) paragraph (a),  or (b) for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence. If the person is charged with violating any combination of Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b),  the offenses shall be joined. If the person is found guilty of any combination of Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b)  for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence, there shall be a single conviction for purposes of sentencing and for purposes of counting convictions under this statute. Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b)  each require proof of a fact for conviction which the others do not require.

d.    Penalties for violation of Section (2)

i.   For a first offense, shall forfeit not less than $500 nor more than $600, a suspension of a driver’s license for not more than six months, and successfully complete a court appointed alcohol treatment program.  Failure to complete the program within the time period determined by the court will result in imprisonment for not more than 30 days.  Successful completion of the program will result in expungement of the conviction, except that it will remain on the individual’s driving record for purposes of counting under Section (2) paragraph (d).

ii.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $1,500 and imprisoned for not more than 6 months if the number of convictions up to and including to the date of the current offense within a 10-year period, equals 2, and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than nine months.

iii.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $2,000 and imprisoned for not more than 12 months if the number of convictions up to and including to the date of the current offense, equals 3 , and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 12 months.

iv.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $2,000 and imprisoned for not more than 2 years if the number of convictions up to and including to the date of the current offense, equals 4 , and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 24 months.

v.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $2,000 and imprisoned for not more than 5 years if the number of convictions up to and including to the date of the current offense, equals 5 , and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 36 months.

vi.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $2,000 and imprisoned for not more than 10 years if the number of convictions up to and including to the date of the current offense, equals 6 or more , and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 48 months.

3.)    It is unlawful for any person to cause injury to another person by the operation of a vehicle while:

a.    Under the influence of an intoxicant, a controlled substance, a controlled substance analog or any combination of an intoxicant, a controlled substance and a controlled substance analog, under the influence of any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or under the combined influence of an intoxicant and any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving; or

b.    The person has a prohibited alcohol concentration.

c.   A person may be charged with and a prosecutor may proceed upon a complaint based upon a violation of any combination of  Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b), for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence. If the person is charged with violating any combination of Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b),  the offenses shall be joined. If the person is found guilty of any combination of Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b)  for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence, there shall be a single conviction for purposes of sentencing and for purposes of counting convictions under this statute. Section (2) paragraph (a), or (b),  each require proof of a fact for conviction which the others do not require.

d.   In an action under this subsection, the defendant has a defense if he or she proves by a preponderance of the evidence that the injury would have occurred even if he or she had been exercising due care and he or she had not been under the influence of an intoxicant, a controlled substance, a controlled substance analog or a combination thereof, under the influence of any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or under the combined influence of an intoxicant and any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or did not have a prohibited alcohol concentration described under Section (3) Paragraph (b).

e.    Penalties for violation of Section (3)

i.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $2,000 and imprisoned for not more than 3 years if the number of convictions, previous to the date of the current offense, equals 3 or  less , and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 3 years.

ii.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $3,000 and imprisoned for not more than 10 years if the number of convictions previous to the date of the current offense, equals 4 or more, and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 5 years.

[Junkie]

4.)    If a person has not attained the legal drinking age of 18, the person may not drive or operate a motor vehicle while he or she has an alcohol concentration of more than 0.01 but not more than 0.08. One penalty for violation of this subsection is suspension of a person's operating privilege for a period of six months. If a person arrested for a violation of this subsection refuses to take a breathalyzer test, the refusal is a separate violation and the person is subject to revocation of the person's operating privilege for a period of six months.

5.)    No person may drive or operate or be on duty time with respect to a commercial motor vehicle under any of the following circumstances:

a.   Under the influence of an intoxicant, a controlled substance, a controlled substance analog or any combination of an intoxicant, a controlled substance and a controlled substance analog, under the influence of any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or under the combined influence of an intoxicant and any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving; or

b.   While having an alcohol concentration above 0.0. or

c.    Within 4 hours of having consumed or having been under the influence of an intoxicating beverage, regardless of its alcohol content, or

d.    While possessing an intoxicating beverage, regardless of its alcohol content. This subdivision does not apply to possession of an intoxicating beverage if the beverage is unopened and is manifested and transported as part of a shipment.

e.    A person may be charged with and a prosecutor may proceed upon a complaint based upon a violation of any combination of  Section (5) paragraph (a), or (b), for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence. If the person is charged with violating any combination of Section (5) paragraph (a), or (b),  the offenses shall be joined. If the person is found guilty of any combination of Section (5) paragraph (a), or (b)  for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence, there shall be a single conviction for purposes of sentencing and for purposes of counting convictions under this statute. Section (5) paragraph (a), or (b),  each require proof of a fact for conviction which the others do not require.

f.   Penalties for violation of Section (5)

i.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $2,000 and imprisoned for not more than 12 months if the number of convictions, previous to the date of the current offense, equals 3 or  less , and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 18 months.

ii.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $3,000 and imprisoned for not more than 3 years if the number of convictions previous to the date of the current offense, equals 4 or more, and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 10 years.

6.)    No person may cause injury to another person by the operation of a commercial motor vehicle under any of the following circumstances:

a.   Under the influence of an intoxicant, a controlled substance, a controlled substance analog or any combination of an intoxicant, a controlled substance and a controlled substance analog, under the influence of any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or under the combined influence of an intoxicant and any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving; or

b.   While having an alcohol concentration above 0.0. or

c.    Within 4 hours of having consumed or having been under the influence of an intoxicating beverage, regardless of its alcohol content, or

d.    While possessing an intoxicating beverage, regardless of its alcohol content. This subdivision does not apply to possession of an intoxicating beverage if the beverage is unopened and is manifested and transported as part of a shipment.

e.   Penalties for violation of Section (6)

i.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $2,000 and imprisoned for not more than 3 years if the number of convictions, previous to the date of the current offense, equals 3 or  less , and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 3 years.

ii.   Shall be fined not less than $1000 nor more than $3,000 and imprisoned for not more than 10 years if the number of convictions previous to the date of the current offense, equals 4 or more, and a suspension of driver’s license for not more than 5 years.

f.    A person may be charged with and a prosecutor may proceed upon a complaint based upon a violation of any combination of  Section (6) paragraph (a), or (b), for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence. If the person is charged with violating any combination of Section (6) paragraph (a), or (b),  the offenses shall be joined. If the person is found guilty of any combination of Section (6) paragraph (a), or (b)  for acts arising out of the same incident or occurrence, there shall be a single conviction for purposes of sentencing and for purposes of counting convictions under this statute. Section (6) paragraph (a), or (b),  each require proof of a fact for conviction which the others do not require.

7.)    If there was a minor passenger under 16 years of age in the motor vehicle at the time of the violation that gave rise to the conviction under Sections (2), Paragraph (d) subparagraph
(i)  the person shall be fined not less than $350 nor more than $1,100 and imprisoned for not less than 5 days nor more than 6 months.

8.)    If there was a minor passenger under 16 years of age in the motor vehicle at the time of the violation that gave rise to the conviction under all other sections besides Section (2), Paragraph (d), subparagraph (i)  the applicable minimum and maximum fines and imprisonment  for the conviction are doubled.

9.)    After lawful arrest for DUI and proper request by a peace officer pursuant to Mideast law for chemical testing of the arrestee's breath, blood or urine, refusal by the arrestee to submit to chemical testing as requested is punishable by law.

a.   The degree of offense and minimum and maximum penalties for violation of section 9 above shall be equivalent to penalties as they're outlined by section 2 of this bill.

[Junkie]

Here is another bill I would like considered.  Let me know what you think.


MIDEAST FIREARMS SAFETY ACT

1.)   Definitions:

a.   In this act:

i.    “Firearm” mean any weapon that discharges a projectile by means of gunpowder.  The firearm must not be loaded or operable to be considered a firearm under this statute.

2.)   No person may conceal and carry a firearm on their person in public places unless they have completed a government firearms safety course and have been issued a proper license.  These licenses must be renewed every 10 years.

3.)   Violation of Section 2 is punishable by a fine of not more $10,000 or imprisonment of not more than 3 years or both.

4.)   No person may possess a firearm if they have:

a.   Been convicted of a felony or adjudicated delinquent of a felony in the Mideast Region, or

b.   Been convicted of a felony or adjudicated delinquent of a felony in another Region, or

c.   Been convicted of a felony or adjudicated delinquent of a felony under Federal Law.

5.)   Violation of Section 4 is punishable by a fine of not more than $25,000 or imprisonment of not more than 5 years or both.

6.)   No person may possess a shotgun or rifle with a barrel length of under 16 inches.

7.)   Violation of Section 6 is punishable by a fine of not more than $25,000 or imprisonment of not more than 5 years or both.

8.)   The Second Concealed Carry Statute is hereby repealed.

[Junkie]

The DUI bill has some problems.  First:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Turning the vehicle on is something that is necessary to put the car in motion, but somebody who simply turns a car to on should not be penalized.

Second, you never defined what under the influence means.

Actually, both of those were intended.  The reason "operating" is defined that way is provide for meaningful use of the statute.  If the statute were to read as to only driving, a drunk driver found simply in a running vehicle would never be able to prosecuted.  I can tell you from personal experience that is a far more common situation than catching drivers actually driving.

Second, under the influence then becomes a question for the finder of fact, i.e. the jury or the judge to be proven by the BAC, field sobriety tests, testimony of witnesses, accidents, and such.

[Junkie]

A few things, the drinking age in the Mideast is 18.  Thus it is illegal for anyone under 18 to drink, why would we make it okay for them to drink only so long as they drive.  As far as the mouth wash thing, that would not come up in a blood test so would not be a factor.

As far as when the officers can arrest.  They arrest, as they do in all situations, when they believe they have probable cause to arrest, in this case, if they believe they have probable cause that the individual is operating while intoxicated. 

While I understand why people would want more specific articulations, in my opinion it is better to allow discretion.  Mandatory arrest guidelines are just as bad as minimum sentences.  It prevents people from exercising the discretion we pay to have.  Of course that is my opinion.

[Junkie]

Also, any thought on the gun bill?

[Junkie]

I have been thinking about my answer about mouth wash.  Maybe we should include in the statute an absolute right for the defendant to demand a test other than the one picked by the police.  So if the cops pick breath, he can demand blood and vice versa.  It would preserve evidence and protect people's rights.

[Junkie]

While I understand your arguments in regards to the 0.01 for minors, I still feel that it should remain 0.00.  The drinking age is 18, to have a DUI statute that allows for drinking under that age is ripe for problems.  This law still allows for prosecutor and law enforcement discretion.  If a minor did register after having alcohol for religious purposes (which still would be hard to get to 0.01), proof that it was for a religious ceremony would clearly be taken into account by judges, prosecutors, and even cops.

Now as far as mouth wash, I have seen it successfully proven that it results in positive tests.  The minor would have to stopped right after gurgling for it to register.  At least in my understanding.  However, if people are still questioning that -- a right for a defendant to demand a second test would remedy that. 

With a due respect to Badger, we have the right to demand the second test in Wisconsin and it is not a problem.  If the cop decides on breath, the defendant can then request blood and vice versa.  It is not a burden on law enforcement.  Most of the time, it just reaffirms the prohibited BAC, sometimes even higher.  The few times it cam in lower, it actually showed that the defendant was in a lower category or not even in the prohibited level.  It helps law enforcement and protects a defendants rights.

Those are my feelings.

[Junkie]

How we will be wasting money on courts?  If a minor has a alcohol at a religious ceremony (and all the ones that I have gone to have not involved enough alcohol to really matter in this debate) he would practically have to be pulled over right after leaving the ceremony.  Time does effect things here.  Then you have the police and the prosecutor who can exercise their discretion.  A prosecutor can decide not to bring charges in such a situation based upon a reason of equity.  Only if they are brought does the court come into play.

Here is where I see the issue, our current drinking age is 18.  If we adopt a 0.01 for minors, then we are in essence saying that minors can't drink unless they plan on driving.  Additionally, the amount of times where someone have limited alcohol content from a religious ceremony would pale in comparison to minors who are simply drinking.  Thus I still feel it should be absolute sobriety for anyone under the age of 18.

[Junkie]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  On the other hand, you do have a point as to the limited aspect of this point.  I do not think we need to, but I can see your issue.  So lets raise it to .01.  Rather than post that immense bill again, I will just edit if it if nobody has an objection.

[Junkie]

I really hope not.  I think it is in everyone's best interest to have truck drivers etc. absolutely sober when on the road.

[Junkie]

I really hope not.  I think it is in everyone's best interest to have truck drivers etc. absolutely sober when on the road.

0.01 is basically absolutely sober.  A BAC of 0.01 isn't going to affect ANYBODY.

Someone driving such a large vehicle should really have no alcohol in their body, in my opinion.

You people are acting like a BAC of 0.01 is going to have an effect on people.  If you assume the average trucker weighs 180 pounds (which is probably a good underestimate), we're talking about under half a beer here.  This is not some guy going out and even having a beer.

I agree with Inks. If it's .01, they aren't really drinking to drink and not even close to drunk. If they actually go to the bar for a drink, it will be above .01 and obviously there's a whole nother story.

*sigh* I thought I could have opened the vote tonight for this

My main reasoning is that when you are talking about bus drivers, truck drivers, etc., an absolute sobriety would prevent the attempted calculation of "well i can one beer with dinner as long as I have a full dinner."  Considering the risks, I really hope we can agree to keep this type of driving conduct on an absolute sober basis.  I know I don't want kids being driven by a driver who had even half a beer.

Interesting side note, 15 years ago, cops where I live were allowed to have two beers with lunch.  Many of these guys weigh much more than 180.  Considering the fact they drive, sometimes at high speeds, and of course have guns, thankfully someone realized that was a bad idea.

I think this is in the same realm.

[Junkie]

NAY

[Junkie]

BTW: Not to nag, but there still is that issue of losing federal highway funding unless first time offenders face a minimum $500 fine and repeat offenders at least a $1000 fine. Just reminding....

I have changed it, although I do not agree with mandatory mins for any reason, I do not want to lose federal funding.

[Junkie]

AYE

[Junkie]

I think your proposal for separate threads is a very good idea.  I tried to keep track of our assembly before joining and found it hard to figure out sometimes what was going on.  I am one of those members that has certain windows of time for activity, so this idea would make it easier to get up to speed and conduct business.

As far as the abortion tax bill, I can not support it.  I had indicated earlier that a tax on items you would rather have less of is in line with my philosophy.  Cigarettes are an example. 

However, I do not believe that a tax on the abortion procedure is appropriate.  While tax hikes on smokes may induce someone to give up smoking, taxing a doctor for performing a certain medical procedure will only lead to less safe abortions, not less abortions.  Taxing the doctor will not change the mindset of those seeking an abortion. 

Even if the cost is split, as suggested, I do not feel it will lead to less abortions.  Unlike smokers, who feel the tax every time they buy a pack (an action before the smoking -- which is what you want to discourage), people looking for an abortion will not be confronted with the tax until they are looking for the abortion.  Kind of too late in the process.  Those who cannot afford the tax will just find a way, often times illegal and unsafe, to get what they seek.  Dealing with blackmarket cigs is one thing, dealing with blackmarket abortions is another.

I am more than willing to consider avenues to make abortions rarer, but trying to limit availability is not something I can support.

Oh, and sorry for not posting earlier.  Went away for the weekend.  Thought I would be able to get computer access.  Got enough time to change my fantasy football line up but got caught by the fiance just as I turned over to this and had the labtop shut on my fingers.  Kind of hurt.