France 2012: the official thread

[Antonio the Sixth]

I wish DSK would just say whether he's running or not already, as this will-he-or-won't-he speculation is making his poll numbers fall. 

Yeah, I feel the same way of course... I don't know what strategy he's following by constantly delaying his announcement, but it doesn't seem to be working.

[Antonio the Sixth]

So yeah, I'm kind of shocked and I must say this affair will probably ruin my holidays that begin just today.

Anyways, he is innocent until proven guilty. I have serious reasons to believe he has nothing to do with these accusations, especially because I've seen nothing that would indicate he'd be able to do such a thing (no, cheating has absolutely nothing to do with raping). And then, why in the world would he do that ? You can't say what you want about DSK, but certainly not that he is an idiot who didn't realize the consequences of such an act.

You know I'm not fond of conspiracy theories, but you won't deny that this scandal comes extremely opportunely for some people.

Anyways, I trust the justice and I know that if he's innocent, he will be acquitted.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I don't want to be bigoted but what is rape in NY might not be considered rape by a French bigshot.

As the saying goes, a lady who says no means maybe, a lady who says maybe means yes and a lady who says yes isn't a lady. I'm sure our charming resident sexists can add on similar ideas.

My high school French teacher worked as an au pair in France and the dad of that family tried to force himself on her. It was no biggie in his eyes.

(and, I can mention Zuma to prove you wrong)

Thank you Gustaf for providing your usual stereotypes. And no, your now famous French teacher isn't an evidence of anything.

If you're interested in discussing about facts, let us know.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Thank you Fab, I'm glad to see we are in agreement there.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Meh, yeah, I don't know what to think too. It could be a conspiracy, it could be true, it could be anything... But in these situations you are always presumed guilty.

What I feel the most shameful is those who say "even if he's innoncent, it's over for him". That might be factually true (one month left for primary candidacies), but it strikes me as horrendously cynical.

If it's a lie, I can only pray for it to be discovered quickly. If he is rehabilitated, he should have no reason to abandon the race. But sadly that doesn't seem to be happening.

Disgusting in any case.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Sorry if I don't apreciate people who deem an entire people sexist because of a few things he heard. You have no clue what the heck you are talking about, but you say it as if it were an evidence. This is called bigotry, and I find it interesting it comes from someone who usually points out bigotry in everybody.

[Antonio the Sixth]

NYPD now changing its version...

Could he be acquitted before the deadline for primary candidacies ? Of course I know the chances are tiny, but I need to believe in it.

I must have missed the part where I called an entire people sexist. A country having a sexist culture isn't the same as everyone in it being sexist. I would have thought that rather obvious.

And while I realize you may be blind to it, being French and all, France is known to be a pretty sexist nation. Not as bad as most non-industrialized nations of course, but still.

That sounds pretty much like I've nothing against Arabs as people, but... you know, their culture bla bla. You strike me as a guy who knows nothing about a place and still makes bold statements like this :

I don't want to be bigoted but what is rape in NY might not be considered rape by a French bigshot.

You are judging a guy you know nothing about, based only upon the fact he is French. Classy.

[Antonio the Sixth]

What's different about NYPD's story now?

Apparently he didn't "left the hotel precipitously" as it has been said. He even went to a restaurant before embarking in the plane.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Fab, I tried to compile your tracker's results on excel and noticed that some of them (the Aubry one last week, Aubry and DSK today) add up to 100.27%. That's not a big deal, but maybe there's something to fix.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Updated the numbers : all works, except last week's Aubry, which now lacks 0.1 points.


That's looking bleaker and bleaker. I still think he is innocent, and the justice will recognize it. But the voters never will... But honestly, part of myself wishes he is guilty, because if he isn't what's happening to him (and to France) is really horrible.

LOL@ Bernard Debré, what a bastard.

[Antonio the Sixth]

1. The essentially deferential (certainly from a British point of view) that the French media takes towards the private lives of powerful men in France means this sort of thing should not, perhaps, come as a total shock. Why? Because if you know that you can do (almost) anything that you want and get away with it, then there's a good chance that you will. Of course some powerful men will act terribly in their private lives regardless of the threat level, but the line is in a different place.

2. I think I read somewhere that this was a $3,000-a-night suite. First off, that's insane. Secondly... well... there is a certain sort of man who would probably consider that a right to mess with female staff members comes with the a price tag that absurd.

3. It's actually quite unusual for women to make up stories like this about powerful men. Now that goes against what we assume, but it's where the evidence is. For what that's worth.

4. Although DSK seems like a big loss politically speaking, he probably isn't. Why? Because if he is capable of errors in judgment on this titanic scale in his private life (and no matter whether the charges are true - though they probably are - he has certainly made huge errors of judgment along the way) then he would probably have found a way of cocking up the election anyway. He was probably never the candidate that everyone assumed that he was. Maybe the PS - and those of us who hope to see Sarkozy defeated - have been spared.

5. I don't think all attention should be in this thread; DSK was the head of the IMF as well. At the very least there ought to be something on the economics board (perhaps there is - I've not checked).

Those are valid points, if the "affair" had regarded cheating, meeting call-girls or other things like that. Of course a person of his situation can consider he "has the right" to do that (and, to some extent, he indeed has).
However, we are talking about rape here. And we're talking about of a internationally known politician. And we're talking about someone who was preparing a presidential big. And here I have difficulties to immagine such a person couldn't realize what rape could have meant for him. Or that he was ready to take the risk. That doesn't exactly strike me as very credible.

Of course, if this turns out to be true, you're 100% right saying a person like him would be totally unfit as a candidate. But I've still difficulties to believe it.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Caution denied.

Sorry, but I can't help thinking that there's some unusual doggedness from the American institutions in this affair. Imagining that he could flee is just ridiculous. Add this that there are huge unclarities in the police's versions...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Imagining that he could flee is just ridiculous.

Sure...

He has money, he can flee if he wants.
Some people just don't want to go in jail.

It would make him definitely guilty and as popular as Hitler - yes, in France too. If he wants a future, he has no choice but staying.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm sure he is very lucid instead. Not panicked, but downhearted.

[Antonio the Sixth]

What I'm not sure of is exactly where you disagree with me. You've insinuated that I'm racist and not knowledgeable enough on France but that seems a bit irrelevant.

Do you disagree that powerful male politicians are often sexist and that this is more prevalent in sexist cultures and that France is a fairly sexist culture?

I've insinuated that you are prejudiced, and I still think you are.

So to put it clearly :
- I've no idea if "powerful male politicians" tend to be sexist. Overall, a fair number of them probably are. That's still not a reason to call a sexist someone you know nothing about.
- France has a fairly sexist culture ? I've no idea. That's not what I've perceived (and sexism is one of the things that I can't bear, believe me if you want), but I probably lack elements of comparison. The question is : what the hell you exactly know about French culture ? As far as I know, your bold statements seem to be based only on your French teacher and on swedish media. You might be right, but the way you say it makes it ridiculous.

[Antonio the Sixth]

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/16/dominique-strauss-khan-arrest-france

Come oooooon! This is staring us in the face...

That's a strong possibility, yeah. If this turns out to be true, some people need to die in a fire quickly.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Nobody so far has pointed out the horrendous brutality of the way he was treated by the American authorities. A person who is presumed innocent shouldn't be exposed to the media the way he has been. He has the right, as any other person, to privacy.

Of course, for all the media throughout the world, he is already guilty. The American public is ready to lynch him and its elected (what a failure !) judicial officers are following it. It is clear that everybody is jumping on this occasion to humiliate a man because he is rich, "powerful", and maybe also because he is French.

French culture might have its defects, but there is also somehting wrong in the American one.

For French-speakers, listen to Bernard-Henri Lévy and Robert Badinter on France inter. http://sites.radiofrance.fr/franceinter/ev/fiche.php?ev_id=1762

[Antonio the Sixth]

Nobody so far has pointed out the horrendous brutality of the way he was treated by the American authorities.

He's been treated no differently to any other suspect in a sex offence case... actually, that's not true. Some poor black teenager from the projects would certainly be treated in a far more 'brutal' manner in a case with charges like this one. Someone on the news this morning mentioned that while he's in Rikers Island, he's being kept on his own. Most inmates there aren't so lucky.

Basically this side of things is a typical cultural disconnect. In America it is normal to parade suspects in front of cameras in their cuffs; that this has happened to DSK is not evidence of unusually brutal treatment or of an attempt to humiliate France. Americans are a theatrical people, that's all.

Maybe, but it's still something extremely humiliating to do to someone who is still presumed innocent. In France, it is actually illegal, fortunately. And I have still to understand why in the world the caution was denied. All this seems to be made in order to show how ruthless the justice is toward powerful people. Except that this isn't a "fair treatment", because being seen handcuffed is not the sma thing when you are the IMF director than when you're just some random guy. Discretion is perfectly normal in thoses case, it's by no way "favoritism".

[Antonio the Sixth]

I think he's saying that famous people have more right to integrity than non-famous people because they stand to lose so much more - membership at the country club, annual invitation to grand balls and so on.

The sad thing is that you seem to be serious... Since you are so sure about the moral superiority of your position, why do you even bother responding to the obnoxious people who disagree with you ?

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Might be that, yes. It doesn't make it any more legitimate to me.

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That's a good one. He was as likely to flee as I am to become the Pope. And anyways the authorities had all the means to keep him under control. This has been done for only two possible reasons : for the sake of humiliating an evil powerful bastard or for that of showing to the public how the justice doesn't make any favor to an evil powerful bastard. In any case, it goes against justice and decency.

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Except that this isn't equality before the law. Because he is famous, the impact of his being publicly shown handcuffed has nothing to do with what it would be for a random guy. The mediatic impact changes everything. A random guy accused of rape attempt doesn't get dozens of cameras filming him, doesn't get his face portrayed in every newspaper, doesn't get publicly lynched like DSK was. In order to ensure equality, yes, some more discretion is needed. That's something pretty evident to see.

[Antonio the Sixth]

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Fleeing for him would be like admitting his guiltiness, and thus authomatically becoming one of the most hated person in the world. Wherever he goes, he would almost certainly be extraded, if only due to popular pressure. And even if he weren't, he couldn't in any way "live the high life" anymore, his goods would probably be frozen and all this. If he considers that he has decent chances be acquitted (and he has, independently from his innocence : he can still be acquitted on benefit of the doubt).
And anyways, as I've said, the police still could easily keep him under control outside of jail. Assigning him a residence should have been enough.

And since you're mentioning Polanski, let's say once for all than the two affairs have absolutely nothing in common. One was an artist (not the same kind of "popularity"), the procedure was not at the same point, and his culpability was undoubted. Comparing the two affairs is pretty demagogic.

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Maybe they didn't knew it 3 days ago, now they do. And anyways the same happens in France (even though media seem a bit more measured, for what I've heard) and in the rest of the world.

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If he is innocent, yes, he is the victim of a horrendous slander and of an excessively brutal treatment.

[Antonio the Sixth]

That's an easy question - since I am so sure about the moral superiority of my position I try to convince others of it. On a lot of issues I don't think my position is necessarily any better than anyone else's and then I usually keep my opinion to myself. Why would I bother anyone with an argument if I didn't think it was superior (or at least interesting).

There is a difference between genuinely believing you are right and treating anybody who disagrees with you as if he were Opebo (yes, because I've the impression that you can't abandon your obsession for one second).
 

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Poor DSK will be loathed by the entire world for something that might very well be false. Even if proven 100% innocent, his image will still be damaged for no reason. Poor DSK will have to abandon the IMF where he was doing an amazing job, and poor DSK just went from the status of favorite as next French President to the status of official asshole.
I know you are not one of those evil depraved rich bastards and that you are infinitely superior to him, but just try for one second to imagine how you would feel if you were him and were innocent.
 

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Please tell me what "principles and ideals" I've betrayed. And no, hating rich people has never been a left-wing principle.

[Antonio the Sixth]

He was fleeing the country when he was arrested. I don't see how you think this means he wouldn't try to flee again.

Bullsh*t. He took the plane he had already planned to take. And before doing so, he took the time to have a dinner with his daughter and to call the hotel telling them he had forgotten a mobile phone. Wow, the American medias' presentation seems even more biased than I thought.

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The "disgusting reactions of the French elite" are the normal reactions of people who respect presumption of innocence. Contrary to some other people.

[Antonio the Sixth]

1. How am I treating you badly? I was making a general statement, unrelated to any poster on here, and you immediately jumped on me with ad hominem attacks. At this point they're becoming rather bizarre. How is Opebo related to this?

Maybe I should have said you're arguing against me as if it were against Opebo. Anyways, that's very easy to understand. If you stopped showing so much hate and contempt and didn't consider your contradictor as if he were a hypocritical sh*t, this discussion would be a lot more interesting. You keep putting words in my mouth that aren't mine, and arguing through strawmen instead of answering to my point, because for you every poster who disagrees with you on topics like this are like Opebo.

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No, I'm not a specialist of reputations. It might be true, and if he is really a "sexist bastard" as you say that certainly lowers my opinion of him a lot. But anyways, opinions shouldn't be based on rumours. And even if he is a "sexist bastard" that doesn't make him a rapist.

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Again, the two affairs have really nothing in common. To the points I've made earlier, let me add being an artist isn't the same thing as being a politician, and if Polanski ever ran for an office he wouldn't get half a vote.


And interestingly, I notice you didn't adress my point at all. If you missed it : if he is innocent, how would you feel in his place ? Is it as hard to have a bit of compassion for him ?

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I've made a point, which again you missed totally. A famous person and an unknown one aren't equal before the media. Being shown handcuffed is far more grave if these image are spread thoughout the world. It's a huge prejudice to dignity and to presumption of innocence. So yes, in this case a treatment of favor is necessary just in order to avoid such a public humiliation. Is it so hard to understand ?

But I see you criticize me for not being able to grasp nuances, just after grossly and stupidly caricaturing my argument as "rich people should get special VIP suites in prison".

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I stated my opinion on the affair, ie that I have difficulties to think he could really have attempted to rape a chambermaid. I might very well be wrong. If the justice concludes otherwise, then I'll accept that. I've never said I knew he was innocent so I'd apreciate if you stopped making me say what I did.
I, however, consider the possibility of his innocence. And I realize how horrible is what he is living, if he actually is innocent.

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Discussing about it is the only way to know who is right and who is wrong. Maybe French media are biased, yeah. Or maybe they are right. But since when being more numerous means being more right ?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Gustaf, I'm not arguing with you as long as you keep missing my points and putting words in my mouth (because 90% of your post is based only on that). I might be wrong in my argument, but at least I genuinely try to adress the points you make.

[Antonio the Sixth]

So we're struck with candidate (and if God wants President) Hollande. What a failure.