Israel-Gaza war

[Brittain33]

Just stop, blowing up refugee camps and firing at first aid workers or people trying to surrender doesn’t fall under “tragic urban warfare”

I saw a tweet that Israel is now training animals to rape Palestinian prisoners, too.

Shame on me for incorrectly predicting the result of my posting this tweet here. I forgot for a moment that the Overton window for anti-Semitism in other Anglosphere countries is further out than in the U.S.

[Alcibiades]

Just stop, blowing up refugee camps and firing at first aid workers or people trying to surrender doesn’t fall under “tragic urban warfare”

I saw a tweet that Israel is now training animals to rape Palestinian prisoners, too.

What’s happening in Gaza is the terrible and tragic consequence of Hamas embedding itself with a civilian population, flooding the territory with ammunition and weapons, and willfully fighting to the last Gazan. Perhaps you have an example of urban warfare that isn’t tragic or destructive to civilians. Better yet, perhaps Hamas could end this all. But they won’t.

I mourn every day for the victims of this war - every day of war is another nail in the coffin of peace. The people who want to preserve Hamas’s ability to resist, who see the hostages as too valuable to the cause to surrender, are prolonging the suffering and death.

What is this even supposed to mean? That because some crackpots on Twitter have made stuff up about Israel, none of the numerous, well-attested, incontrovertible atrocities committed by the IDF actually happened?

Hindsight’s post was completely correct — these are not the tragic, unavoidable consequences of urban warfare, but the result of a repeated pattern of disregard for civilian life and welfare which has frequently been suggestive of the motive of collective punishment of the Gazan people. Why this would remotely surprise anyone given the ideological composition of the present Israeli government, I do not know.

Yes, much of the suffering could be alleviated if Hamas laid down their arms (although likely not all of it — just today we have got the latest story of some extremely dubious behaviour by the IDF in the West Bank) — no one is denying that they are an evil organisation — but at some point, the buck has to stop with Israel. It is not a remotely defensible moral principle that a country is entitled to wage a war until they have totally defeated their enemy, even if that enemy is clearly in the wrong, no matter the human cost — and especially not if that country wants to be regarded, as we are told we ought to regard Israel, as a bastion of democracy and human rights.

[KaiserDave]

Just stop, blowing up refugee camps and firing at first aid workers or people trying to surrender doesn’t fall under “tragic urban warfare”

I saw a tweet that Israel is now training animals to rape Palestinian prisoners, too.

What’s happening in Gaza is the terrible and tragic consequence of Hamas embedding itself with a civilian population, flooding the territory with ammunition and weapons, and willfully fighting to the last Gazan. Perhaps you have an example of urban warfare that isn’t tragic or destructive to civilians. Better yet, perhaps Hamas could end this all. But they won’t.

I mourn every day for the victims of this war - every day of war is another nail in the coffin of peace. The people who want to preserve Hamas’s ability to resist, who see the hostages as too valuable to the cause to surrender, are prolonging the suffering and death.

What is this even supposed to mean? That because some crackpots on Twitter have made stuff up about Israel, none of the numerous, well-attested, incontrovertible atrocities committed by the IDF actually happened?

Hindsight’s post was completely correct — these are not the tragic, unavoidable consequences of urban warfare, but the result of a repeated pattern of disregard for civilian life and welfare which has frequently been suggestive of the motive of collective punishment of the Gazan people. Why this would remotely surprise anyone given the ideological composition of the present Israeli government, I do not know.

Yes, much of the suffering could be alleviated if Hamas laid down their arms (although likely not all of it — just today we have got the latest story of some extremely dubious behaviour by the IDF in the West Bank) — no one is denying that they are an evil organisation — but at some point, the buck has to stop with Israel. It is not a remotely defensible moral principle that a country is entitled to wage a war until they have totally defeated their enemy, even if that enemy is clearly in the wrong, no matter the human cost — and especially not if that country wants to be regarded, as we are told we ought to regard Israel, as a bastion of democracy and human rights.

When will people force Israel to take some goddamn responsibility and stop treating them like they can do no wrong and that any and all objectionable acts they commit are somehow somebody else's (Hamas, Iran, moronic western leftists, etc.) fault? How many more Palestinians need to be shot, blown up, or burned alive before Israel can be criticized?

[Meclazine for Israel]

Former Australian Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, talks about the Iranian regime in the context of the New World Order.

China, Iran and Russia

https://youtu.be/HcDd9gjvoyU?t=1637

Tony talks about influence from Iran moving forward.

"It's an extremely unstable region and it could easily go up in a gruesome conflagration."

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Raad Saad - the Chief of Operations for Hamas’ military wing and the new fourth in command of Hamas’ military wing following Ayman Nofal’s death last year - was killed in an airstrike yesterday.  This is a big deal and arguably the highest level Hamas leader Israel has taken out since Marwan Issa back in March.

[Silent Hunter]

What is this even supposed to mean? That because some crackpots on Twitter have made stuff up about Israel, none of the numerous, well-attested, incontrovertible atrocities committed by the IDF actually happened?

As a general rule, lying about stuff makes it harder for the truth to be believed.

[Alcibiades]

What is this even supposed to mean? That because some crackpots on Twitter have made stuff up about Israel, none of the numerous, well-attested, incontrovertible atrocities committed by the IDF actually happened?

As a general rule, lying about stuff makes it harder for the truth to be believed.

But how is that supposed to be relevant here? You don’t have to rely on random Twitter accounts with watermelon emojis in their usernames to hear about this stuff; you can read about it in any reputable Western mainstream news source of your choice, most of which hardly have some history of outrageous anti-Israel bias.

[KaiserDave]

What is this even supposed to mean? That because some crackpots on Twitter have made stuff up about Israel, none of the numerous, well-attested, incontrovertible atrocities committed by the IDF actually happened?

As a general rule, lying about stuff makes it harder for the truth to be believed.

You're an adult, are you incapable of distinguishing hearsay and fake news on Twitter from legitimate war crimes journalism? This is not an excuse.

[Silent Hunter]

What is this even supposed to mean? That because some crackpots on Twitter have made stuff up about Israel, none of the numerous, well-attested, incontrovertible atrocities committed by the IDF actually happened?

As a general rule, lying about stuff makes it harder for the truth to be believed.

You're an adult, are you incapable of distinguishing hearsay and fake news on Twitter from legitimate war crimes journalism? This is not an excuse.

I would say that can be harder than people think, especially when governments themselves are involved in pushing the fake news, as we've just seen with the US and stuff about the Chinese Covid vaccine.

Indeed, one of the most commonly used texts by antisemites is a Russian secret police forgery.

[KaiserDave]

What is this even supposed to mean? That because some crackpots on Twitter have made stuff up about Israel, none of the numerous, well-attested, incontrovertible atrocities committed by the IDF actually happened?

As a general rule, lying about stuff makes it harder for the truth to be believed.

You're an adult, are you incapable of distinguishing hearsay and fake news on Twitter from legitimate war crimes journalism? This is not an excuse.

I would say that can be harder than people think, especially when governments themselves are involved in pushing the fake news, as we've just seen with the US and stuff about the Chinese Covid vaccine.

Indeed, one of the most commonly used texts by antisemites is a Russian secret police forgery.

Absolutely! That doesn't make Brittain's original post any less absurd, where he suggests that somehow because fake news about Israeli crimes exist that real documented crimes do not also exist. Really quite desperate and sad.

-snip-

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

So Israel and Lebanon are about to go to war. I hate this timeline so much.

US offers assurances to Israel this week in the event of full-blown war with Hezbollah

"Don't you start a regional war, Bibi! I'll give you the full military support of the United States! I'll send the aircraft carriers! Don't do the only thing that could keep you out of prison!"

[Meclazine for Israel]

CBN Jerusalem Dateline

Hezbollah War Fast Approaching

https://youtu.be/zrky8T5E5-w?si=Lyk42tnC2er2htH4

Hezbollah has launched over 19,000 missiles into Israel since October 7.

It's only a matter of time before we witness Israel take action on their northern border.

As one of the least popular countries in the World for foreign investment, Lebanon has a poverty rate of 45%.

Clearly, they cannot afford a war with Israel.

[Silent Hunter]

If they've chucked 19,000 rockets at Israel, that is probably not an insignificant portion of their arsenal. They could probably overwhelm Iron Dome - once. After that, as with Gaza, they'll be getting a very heavy response in return.

[Meclazine for Israel]

If they've chucked 19,000 rockets at Israel, that is probably not an insignificant portion of their arsenal. They could probably overwhelm Iron Dome - once. After that, as with Gaza, they'll be getting a very heavy response in return.

Hezbollah have 150,000 missiles left.

A war will send the Lebanese people into mass poverty.

The first Israeli strikes will be the electricity grid, the water-sewerage systems, the telecommunications networks and the petroleum reserves.

That will mean a lot of Lebanese people living in poverty with no water, electricity, toilets, internet, email and capacity to travel.

[Brittain33]

What is this even supposed to mean? That because some crackpots on Twitter have made stuff up about Israel, none of the numerous, well-attested, incontrovertible atrocities committed by the IDF actually happened?

As a general rule, lying about stuff makes it harder for the truth to be believed.

You're an adult, are you incapable of distinguishing hearsay and fake news on Twitter from legitimate war crimes journalism? This is not an excuse.

Because time and time again, what is quoted as “legitimate war crimes journalism” like “Israel dropped a 2.5 ton bomb on a safe haven area in Rafah to blow up babies” or “Israel bombed a hospital on the first night, killing 500 doctors, women, and children” gets walked back only after it generates outrage and validates everyone’s priors about the IDF. And then days later it emerges that the explosion in Rafah happened because an IDF rocket hit a Hamas ammunition store outside the safe zone which refugees had settled next to causing a massive explosion, or on the first day a failed Hamas rocket hit a parking lot and didn’t cause any number of casualties. It’s not just Twitter, it’s Reddit, it’s Facebook, people routinely believe appalling stories about the IDF and Israelites they would never buy about another country or another people, and defend it with circular reasoning.

And so it turns out that “Israel dropped a 2.5 ton bomb on Rafah just to incinerate refugees” is no better sourced than “Israel rapes Palestinians with dogs.”

Let me make this clear - I would like to hear the example of an urban war which was carried out without the horrors we are seeing. I think you know there isn’t one. I actually agree with many people here - I don’t support Netanyahu, I think the fighting now is counterproductive and he has no plan. But I don’t buy into the hypocrisy from people who have great confidence in their ability to pass judgment on a military’s behavior in war when, from what I’ve seen in Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, and any number of places, the simple fact is war is hell and it makes “war crimes” a meaningless phrase when it costs us the ability to distinguish between urban warfare in Gaza and, for example, a dictator using poison gas against his own people as in Syria or Iraq.

I think you all recognize what’s happening here isn’t an outlier by contemporary war standards, but war is horrible on its own. We can agree on that.

For my Latvian friend, Israel is not a full democracy and it’s not a bastion of human rights. I don’t expect people to believe it is. What I hope for Israel is that it can exist without rockets raining down from Lebanon or Gaza, without invasions that massacre civilians, and without glib leftists in the west hand waving away the lives of 7 million Jews by pretending they can make the state disappear. And until it does, we’re going to continue to see these tragedies.

[Brittain33]

When will people force Israel to take some goddamn responsibility and stop treating them like they can do no wrong and that any and all objectionable acts they commit are somehow somebody else's

This is a straw man.

Israel’s leadership is guilty of a few sins here:
1. Having no serious plan for peace or a two-state solution, and letting the settlers run wild in the West Bank, allowing the general temperature to rise
2. After responding to Hamas’s atrocities, prolonging the current war without any long-term plan and past the point where it’s achieving anything

However - the existence of this war, Israel’s response, is for damn sure Hamas’s fault enabled by clueless allies abroad who indulge a fantasy that with “resistance” they can make Israel disappear, and its extension is enabled by the same people who want to keep Hamas in power and with hostages as assets.

I cheer on Biden and anyone else who tries to force Netanyahu to take responsibility for his messes.

Both sides are doing bad things here. You’re going ham attacking a point of view I did not express and never would.

[Ancestral Republican]

At this point it's very clear that Bibi prefers eternal war to having to contest an election.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/23/middleeast/intense-phase-hamas-war-end-netanyahu-lebanon-intl-latam/index.html

[Brittain33]

. It is not a remotely defensible moral principle that a country is entitled to wage a war until they have totally defeated their enemy, even if that enemy is clearly in the wrong, no matter the human cost — and especially not if that country wants to be regarded, as we are told we ought to regard Israel, as a bastion of democracy and human rights.

I addressed this above, but Israel is a bastion of safety for Jews who survived ethnic cleansing and apartheid in Europe and the Middle East. They will value safety over your respect for them as a moral exemplar, because moral principles in war did absolutely nothing to save Jews in World War 2 or in the Arab countries that expelled them later.  Including the 40,000 Jews of Riga, Latvia - more than the highest estimate that the Hamas Ministry of Health gives for casualties in this terrible war, and this in one minor city - who were killed by their Latvian neighbors and Germans during the Holocaust. And because whatever Israel does or doesn’t do, the dog-raping and baby-sniping stories will circulate regardless.

[Ancestral Republican]

. It is not a remotely defensible moral principle that a country is entitled to wage a war until they have totally defeated their enemy, even if that enemy is clearly in the wrong, no matter the human cost — and especially not if that country wants to be regarded, as we are told we ought to regard Israel, as a bastion of democracy and human rights.

I addressed this above, but Israel is a bastion of safety for Jews who survived ethnic cleansing and apartheid in Europe and the Middle East. They will value safety over your respect for them as a moral exemplar, because moral principles in war did absolutely nothing to save Jews in World War 2 or in the Arab countries that expelled them later.  Including the 40,000 Jews of Riga, Latvia - more than the highest estimate that the Hamas Ministry of Health gives for casualties in this terrible war, and this in one minor city - who were killed by their Latvian neighbors and Germans during the Holocaust.

Invoking the Holocaust to minimize the deaths of Palestinian civilians is not a great look.

[Brittain33]

. It is not a remotely defensible moral principle that a country is entitled to wage a war until they have totally defeated their enemy, even if that enemy is clearly in the wrong, no matter the human cost — and especially not if that country wants to be regarded, as we are told we ought to regard Israel, as a bastion of democracy and human rights.

I addressed this above, but Israel is a bastion of safety for Jews who survived ethnic cleansing and apartheid in Europe and the Middle East. They will value safety over your respect for them as a moral exemplar, because moral principles in war did absolutely nothing to save Jews in World War 2 or in the Arab countries that expelled them later.  Including the 40,000 Jews of Riga, Latvia - more than the highest estimate that the Hamas Ministry of Health gives for casualties in this terrible war, and this in one minor city - who were killed by their Latvian neighbors and Germans during the Holocaust.

Invoking the Holocaust to minimize the deaths of Palestinian civilians is not a great look.

In what twisted moral universe is 40,000 deaths “minimizing” a tragedy? The massacre of the Jews of Riga by Latvian militias and German soldiers was a catastrophe as are the deaths in Gaza. Only an absolute ghoul would look at 40,000 dead and say that’s minimizing the impact.

The fact that the suffering today is a small fraction of what was experienced in the Holocaust, and comparisons are inapt (and revolting), doesn’t make the suffering less immense or it less imperative that peace be made and the suffering and dying end.

[Meclazine for Israel]

The Gaza Strip

Devastation

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8eh9Xex4U_/

[KaiserDave]

There's a lot I disagree with in what you're saying. But firstly I want to respond to one thing in particular.

When will people force Israel to take some goddamn responsibility and stop treating them like they can do no wrong and that any and all objectionable acts they commit are somehow somebody else's

This is a straw man.

A few posts later you're already finding somebody else to blame. That "these tragedies" (which I assume is a reference to the entire conflict and not just Israeli casualties) will continue to happen because of others, when right now the overwhelming majority of the death and destruction we're seeing is Israel's responsibility. You go right ahead and blame the present predicament the people who I said verbatim people are always turning to blame. Hamas, Iran, and western leftists.

What I hope for Israel is that it can exist without rockets raining down from Lebanon or Gaza, without invasions that massacre civilians, and without glib leftists in the west hand waving away the lives of 7 million Jews by pretending they can make the state disappear. And until it does, we’re going to continue to see these tragedies.

I don't feel like my attack that people are unwilling to make Israel take responsibility is a straw man at all. People can't help themselves but make excuses for a state that does not deserve excuses.

Now moving on. First of all, Alcibiades is British, not Latvian. Just wanted to get that out there. Just like I don't actually live in Quebec.

You ask me to produce an urban war that did not involve civilian casualties or terrible tragedies of all sorts. Point taken, there would be no way to prosecute any war in Gaza without civilian casualties on some scale. But this war is hardly cookie-cutter. Consider the political context at least, which is incomparable to Iraq or Syria. You agree that Israel has no defined political objectives and that the current war is achieving nothing, so let's connect the dots here. If that's true, that makes the consequences for civilians in Gaza even worse! If that's true, it indicts the entire campaign starting in October up to now. If there is no positive objective for the conflict, then the suffering and misery we've seen dealt out by Israel (and no matter how you slice it, they're the one with the overwhelming military advantage), has been for nothing. Choosing the engage in urban war that will have tragic consequences can be an acceptable decision if there is a positive end goal, Israel has no positive end goal. I know you agree with my criticisms of Netanyahu's political cynicism, so if you connect the dots, it logically follows that this campaign was a disaster in full. The Israeli state cannot be trusted to wage an urban war of any kind! Israel is run by a coalition of genocidal fascists and cynical political opportunists, they deserve no excuses and no benefit of the doubt whatsoever. The last few months have proven that the Israeli campaign starting in October has been an unmitigated moral catastrophe for everybody involved. Yes, a response to October 7th was justified, yes, Hamas cannot be allowed to "govern" Gaza (very little governing going on), but the present approach has only been a disaster.

As for your paragraph regarding war crimes, I consider it an effort to run away from the facts by tilting at windmills. If you cannot acknowledge that the Israeli military has a problem with the way they treat civilians, I can't convince you. I mean, the United States, which is the most pro-Israel major power in the world, almost sanctioned an IDF battalion. What more do I need to say? I don't want to link spam. Even if you're right and the IDF's conduct is no worse than American conduct in Iraq, American conduct in Iraq was horrid and that war was a terrible crime (but at least we had political goals).

I am criticizing Israel for their lack of positive political objectives and I am criticizing people here for making excuses for them. So in the interest of transparency, here's a humble possible political alternative, it is not one which I realistic, but I do think it could work.

1. The assumption of a new Israeli government led by responsible statesmen and purged of active genocidal elements (while I may have a negative view of Gantz and Lapid, they are at least, responsible actors who will work with the international community).
2. An immediate cease-fire in Gaza, and a comprehensive prisoner exchange for the remaining hostages, a total Israeli military withdrawal from Gaza.
3. The creation of a UN authority for the administration and reconstruction of Gaza, backed by a coalition of nation-states concerned with peace, that in the short-term is primarily concerned with the civilian welfare of the Gazan people and in the long term concerned with the long-term integration of Gaza with the Palestinian Authority.

[Red Velvet]

Here in Brazil the greatest education intelectual we had, Paulo Freire, once said:

“When education is not liberating, the dream of the oppressed is to become the oppressor.”

That’s the exact logic that is applied to some people of Atlas trying to compare tragedies that are incomparable. If something terrible happens to me that gives me a free blank card to do awful stuff to others? That makes no sense.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Here in Brazil the greatest education intelectual we had, Paulo Freire, once said:

“When education is not liberating, the dream of the oppressed is to become the oppressor.”

That’s the exact logic that is applied to some people of Atlas trying to compare tragedies that are incomparable. If something terrible happens to me that gives me a free blank card to do awful stuff to others? That makes no sense.

Israel is in a bad neighbor and you are ironically judging it with western liberal standards that can’t be met in a region like this . The fact is Islamists have always had a problem with a non Islamic state in the region and have tried to wipe out non Islamic religions over and over again for decades .

Israel is justified in what they are doing because what they are doing is self defense regardless of what self righteous western progressives think especially Europeans

[Ancestral Republican]

Israel's lunatic finance minister outlines alleged government plan to essentially illegally annex West Bank.

Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, has described in explicit terms his active effort to annex the West Bank to Israel, days after the Guardian revealed how the pro-settlement politician and his allies had quietly gained significant new legal powers to that end.

Speaking at a meeting of his Religious Zionism party, Smotrich told colleagues that he was “establish[ing] facts on the ground in order to make Judea and Samaria [an Israeli term for the occupied West Bank] an integral part of the state of Israel”.

“We will establish sovereignty … first on the ground and then through legislation. I intend to legalise the young settlements [illegal outposts],” Smotrich said in comments reported by Haaretz. “My life’s mission is to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state.”

Annexation and the acquisition of territory by military conquest is forbidden as one of the founding principles of international law including the UN charter.

The comments by Smotrich echoed recorded remarks he made at a gathering of supporters in the West Bank, first disclosed by the New York Times, in which he appeared to refer to the administrative changes as “mega-dramatic”. He was quoted as saying: “Such changes change a system’s DNA.”

Speaking about his acquisition of new legal powers, he said “[we] created a separate civilian system,” adding that to avoid international criticism the government had kept the defence ministry involved in the process, making it seem as if the military was still the main player in governing the West Bank.

“It will be easier to swallow in the international and legal context,” he said.

As well as serving as finance minister, Smotrich serves as a minister at Israel’s defence ministry, including with responsibility for the Civil Administration, which oversees Israel’s occupation of the West Bank.

Anyone still shilling for Bibi and acting like his government's monstrous activities are necessary for the continued survival of Israel is no longer engaged with reality.