Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[Silent Hunter]

Well I agree, the West was completely asleep at the wheel on Russia before 2022. But now that's changed. If you want Ukraine in NATO (or any other defensive treaty with the US/European countries), the first step is getting an indefinite cease-fire.

I wouldn't say completely - they did implement some sanctions and provide training to Ukraine before the invasion.

[Hindsight was 2020]

“wHy DOesn’T UKRaine nEgoTIate?!”
https://twitter.com/faytuks/status/1801561892546085240?s=12
https://twitter.com/SvMorenets/status/1801567950320681202

[Woody]

“wHy DOesn’T UKRaine nEgoTIate?!”
https://x.com/faytuks/status/1801561892546085240?s=12
https://x.com/SvMorenets/status/1801567950320681202

This seems very reasonable.

[Biden Stans Are Cringelords]

Is he still demanding demilitarization?

[Hindsight was 2020]

Is he still demanding demilitarization?

Yep

[Hindsight was 2020]

“wHy DOesn’T UKRaine nEgoTIate?!”
https://x.com/faytuks/status/1801561892546085240?s=12
https://x.com/SvMorenets/status/1801567950320681202

This seems very reasonable.

Reasonable is you doing the right thing and leaving for a year, demanding Ukraine withdraw from oblasts they have majority control over isn’t

[KaiserDave]

Sir Woodbury is obviously an idiot, but I’d just like to raise the point that this proposal would require Ukraine to doom thousands of people in the liberated zone to Russian oppression.

[Red Velvet]

“wHy DOesn’T UKRaine nEgoTIate?!”
https://x.com/faytuks/status/1801561892546085240?s=12
https://x.com/SvMorenets/status/1801567950320681202

This seems very reasonable.

Not really, they are not reasonable, but neither are Ukraine demands based on how the conflict stands.

Both Russia and Ukraine need to be put inside the negotiation table for a middle-ground solution where both accept they cannot get everything they want, whatever they say now should be seen as their initial demands where they get everything and that’s simply impossible.

The war being prolonged isn’t good for ANY of the sides, so eventually they will be pushed to negotiate.

Ukraine can be divided in a West vs East logic where the East gets absorbed by Russia but the Western part of Ukraine gets to be COMPLETELY free to join NATO and the EU. USA and Europe should be in the discussion table to ensure that really happens right after peace is declared.

The leader of Western Ukraine also gets to be fully independent and aligned with the West. Ukraine survives (partially) and joins every institution it wants, getting to have a “victory” claim for resisting Russians who wanted to take over. Eastern Ukraine becomes part of Russia and the claim of “victory” for the Russian government domestically to justify the war.

That is the true “middle ground” solution which HAS to mean that neither side gets completely happy but also both get their own “victory” claims.

However, the first step is putting these two stubborn kids in the SAME table to shout at each other and then finally talk more pragmatically, both Putin and Zelenskyy.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Sir Woodbury is obviously an idiot, but I’d just like to raise the point that this proposal would require Ukraine to doom thousands of people in the liberated zone to Russian oppression.

Of course and it’s the prospects people like Lula who seems more concerned with shaming Ukraine for not curtailing to a nation that wants to genocide them never want to address but god knows when it comes to Gaza he doesn’t have that issue

[Red Velvet]

Sir Woodbury is obviously an idiot, but I’d just like to raise the point that this proposal would require Ukraine to doom thousands of people in the liberated zone to Russian oppression.

Of course and it’s the prospects people like Lula who seems more concerned with shaming Ukraine for not curtailing to a nation that wants to genocide them never want to address but god knows when it comes to Gaza he doesn’t have that issue

Lula is a peace enthusiast and he wants peace for BOTH conflicts while ensuring every side still get to exist.

What you’re defending in Russia/Ukraine is the “all-or-nothing” approach that could maybe result in a “nothing” result where Ukraine gets fully absorbed by Russia, as Ukraine has less numbers in its favor for a war that lasts a decade or more.

Unyielding Nationalism (Russian or Ukrainian) is cancer, yet people here only really add fuel to the Ukrainian one. There needs to be some moderate that says “NO” to both sides and pushes for real peace, which is exactly Lula’s purpose as a peace enthusiast that doesn’t fold to either side. World needs a moderate that pushes for peace instead of more and more war.

Meanwhile, what exactly is Palestine’s cause? They barely even exist, there just needs to be ensured that they have a piece of land to live and administrate. Because Israel’s plan is to absorb just the land and make Palestinians go elsewhere as they aren’t willing to sustain the massive demographic shift by giving those people the same rights of a Israeli IF they really absorb Palestine in its entirety. It’s a full apartheid logic.

It’s way more serious and criminal than what even Russia is doing (though it’s still really bad), absorbing land but also the people living in it as well. The fact you don’t recognize the different natures of these conflicts is yet another proof you and the general Western establishment only really value land implications, giving zero s*h*i*t to the actual human lives involved.

[axiomsofdominion]

Sir Woodbury is obviously an idiot, but I’d just like to raise the point that this proposal would require Ukraine to doom thousands of people in the liberated zone to Russian oppression.

Of course and it’s the prospects people like Lula who seems more concerned with shaming Ukraine for not curtailing to a nation that wants to genocide them never want to address but god knows when it comes to Gaza he doesn’t have that issue

Lula is a peace enthusiast and he wants peace for BOTH conflicts while ensuring every side still get to exist.

What you’re defending in Russia/Ukraine is the “all-or-nothing” approach that could maybe result in a “nothing” result where Ukraine gets fully absorbed by Russia, as Ukraine has less numbers in its favor for a war that lasts a decade or more.

Unyielding Nationalism (Russian or Ukrainian) is cancer, yet people here only really add fuel to the Ukrainian one. There needs to be some moderate that says “NO” to both sides and pushes for real peace, which is exactly Lula’s purpose as a peace enthusiast that doesn’t fold to either side. World needs a moderate that pushes for peace instead of more and more war.

Meanwhile, what exactly is Palestine’s cause? They barely even exist, there just needs to be ensured that they have a piece of land to live and administrate. Because Israel’s plan is to absorb just the land and make Palestinians go elsewhere as they aren’t willing to sustain the massive demographic shift by giving those people the same rights of a Israeli IF they really absorb Palestine in its entirety. It’s a full apartheid logic.

It’s way more serious and criminal than what even Russia is doing (though it’s still really bad), absorbing land but also the people living in it as well. The fact you don’t recognize the different natures of these conflicts is yet another proof you and the general Western establishment only really value land implications, giving zero s*h*i*t to the actual human lives involved.

Personally I support the US allying with Venezuela to conquer northwestern Brazil. Brazilian nationalists will complain but so what? Since Brazil has no hope of resisting the US they'll just have to give up the land. And given the problems Brazil causes to US interests the US is justified in splitting up Brazil. And since the US is less evil than Russia, they won't even keep the land for themselves!

[Hindsight was 2020]

Sir Woodbury is obviously an idiot, but I’d just like to raise the point that this proposal would require Ukraine to doom thousands of people in the liberated zone to Russian oppression.

Of course and it’s the prospects people like Lula who seems more concerned with shaming Ukraine for not curtailing to a nation that wants to genocide them never want to address but god knows when it comes to Gaza he doesn’t have that issue

Lula is a peace enthusiast and he wants peace for BOTH conflicts while ensuring every side still get to exist.

What you’re defending in Russia/Ukraine is the “all-or-nothing” approach that could maybe result in a “nothing” result where Ukraine gets fully absorbed by Russia, as Ukraine has less numbers in its favor for a war that lasts a decade or more.

Unyielding Nationalism (Russian or Ukrainian) is cancer, yet people here only really add fuel to the Ukrainian one. There needs to be some moderate that says “NO” to both sides and pushes for real peace, which is exactly Lula’s purpose as a peace enthusiast that doesn’t fold to either side. World needs a moderate that pushes for peace instead of more and more war.

Meanwhile, what exactly is Palestine’s cause? They barely even exist, there just needs to be ensured that they have a piece of land to live and administrate. Because Israel’s plan is to absorb just the land and make Palestinians go elsewhere as they aren’t willing to sustain the massive demographic shift by giving those people the same rights of a Israeli IF they really absorb Palestine in its entirety. It’s a full apartheid logic.

It’s way more serious and criminal than what even Russia is doing (though it’s still really bad), absorbing land but also the people living in it as well. The fact you don’t recognize the different natures of these conflicts is yet another proof you and the general Western establishment only really value land implications, giving zero s*h*i*t to the actual human lives involved.

The fact you think Ukraine having its sovereignty respected is “nationalism” and “caring about land more than people” yet think Palestinians wanting the same thing is a noble struggle for survival shows what a massive hypocrite you are and it’s been incredibly clear the only reason you don’t view the conflicts in the same way is because one victim has Western backing

Edit: Also if Lula was such a peace enthusiast why doesn’t he try to leverage the economic and geopolitical Brazil has with Russia to get them to drop their insane ceasefire demands? Because so far the closest he’s done to push back on Russia was not giving them weapons which congrats for doing the bare minimum to keep up the appearance of neutrality

[Beet]

The Russian "proposal" is facetious and ridiculous on face.

But that is precisely why the Ukrainian counter-offer should be willingness to begin immediate cease-fire negotiations based on the current front lines. If the Russians accept that, then it represents a climbdown from their current position. If they refuse, then they look like they are sabotaging the peace talks. It is a win-win situation for Ukraine, there. It's also the humanitarian position, and the only one that makes any sense given the current situation where both sides are losing from the war going on.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

Gentle reminder that Russian authorities cannot actually decide on what the boundaries of the provinces they claim are. Different officials have claimed at times that:
- The provinces, and only the provinces, were Russia
- Only the parts included in the fake referendums, rather than the whole provinces, were Russia (according to some of their claims, Melitopol is now the capital of Zaporizhzhia, rather than…Zaporizhzhia)
- A part of Mykolaiv they used to occupy “joined” Kherson
- Kharkiv:

[Storr]

Gentle reminder that Russian authorities cannot actually decide on what the boundaries of the provinces they claim are. Different officials have claimed at times that:
- The provinces, and only the provinces, were Russia
- Only the parts included in the fake referendums, rather than the whole provinces, were Russia (according to some of their claims, Melitopol is now the capital of Zaporizhzhia, rather than…Zaporizhzhia)
- A part of Mykolaiv they used to occupy “joined” Kherson
- Kharkiv:

I feel like in Putin's mind this is a perfectly reasonable proposal: Ukraine gives up land to Russia, the stronger side which is currently gaining territory on the battlefield, in exchange for a ceasefire. Then you negotiate all the other stuff ("denazification", neutral status, demilitarization, etc.) after the fighting stops.

I agree with Konstantin Sonin, this ceasefire proposal simply shows how delusional Putin is.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It's so ing surreal that Western leftists are whining that "we should negotiate with Putin!!!1!1" when Putin's negotiating position is "I want everything".

[Storr]

Sir Woodbury is obviously an idiot, but I’d just like to raise the point that this proposal would require Ukraine to doom thousands of people in the liberated zone to Russian oppression.

Not to mention the fact it would give Russia a foothold on the right bank of the Dnipro (Kherson city and its surroundings) from which it could launch future offensives.

[axiomsofdominion]

It's so ing surreal that Western leftists are whining that "we should negotiate with Putin!!!1!1" when Putin's negotiating position is "I want everything".

Well it is identical to their position on Palestine. Since Ukraine and Israel have US support they must be bad and their enemies should get everything they want.

[Woody]

"There are nearly 700 thousand Russian military personnel in the area of the Special Military Operation"

"Russia is forced to push back the front line in the direction of Kharkov to reduce terrorist attacks on Belgorod"

- Putin

[Red Velvet]

It's so ing surreal that Western leftists are whining that "we should negotiate with Putin!!!1!1" when Putin's negotiating position is "I want everything".

Well it is identical to their position on Palestine. Since Ukraine and Israel have US support they must be bad and their enemies should get everything they want.

I don’t really think you understand English if that’s what you believe that “negotiation” or “middle-ground solution” means.

It’s either that or trying to create a scarecrow in bad faith in order to prevent peace talks from ever happening. Which is very easy when it’s not you who have to commit.

Just because Putin/Russia comes to the table with a proposal that benefits Russia (obviously) doesn’t mean that THIS will be the final result of negotiations, just like Zelenskyy/Ukraine saying stuff that the war needs to go on until even Crimea is given back doesn’t mean that it will be the end solution just because it’s the end goal of Ukraine.

The point of negotiations is by nature to put the two sides on the table to scream at each other and then after putting everything out of their system to find COMMITMENT where both sides can claim victory but not really a full victory that satisfies the full demands of both.

Ukraine - Needs to ensure that it still gets to exist on some level and stop sacrificing its entire male youth population. And it needs guarantees that what exists of Ukraine isn’t attacked, a protection that only NATO/EU can give.

Russia - Needs a guarantee domestically that it “won” the war (the only thing that will make it end, as its an existential matter for Russia) and achieved their initial goals and ensuring Eastern Ukraine territories become a buffer zone between the West and Russia is the best way to claim that.

Ukrainian government becoming Neutral or Pro-Russia wouldn’t solve anything as there would still be the unstoppable Anti-Russian sentiment from population after Russia invaded it, so best possible solution is for Ukraine to buy their freedom by giving up the territories it already lost UNDER THE CONDITIONS that it becomes a NATO and EU country.

Which is why USA and Europe need to swallow their pride and drive negotiation talks under those terms in order to give Ukraine the safety conditions it needs. So far Ukrainians have only been used as cheap manpower to somewhat waste Russian military resources, but it’s not sustainable for Ukraine for this to go on forever.

You people say the end goal is to get Russia out of Ukraine completely but NEVER are capable of an intellectual argument on HOW you are going to achieve this idealistic scenario whenever reality forces itself.

And even if this WERE possible, you ignore that Russia would never accept that kind of humiliation and would be forced to escalate in a way they do have capabilities of doing. Which would only ADD more tragedy to Ukraine situation. Your whole mindset in this forum is one of escalation when what we need is de-escalation.

There are 2 simultaneous truths regarding this whole conflict:

1. Ukraine needs to keep existing on any possible level.
2. Russia cannot have a humiliation that forces them to escalate this to something larger.

The sooner you accept these two simultaneous truths, the sooner you will drop your toxic “all-or-nothing” pro-war mentality and support direct negotiation talks between Ukraine and Russia.

The Switzerland forum is a complete joke, you NEED to have both Ukraine and Russia talking directly to each other for anything to get done, under mediation of third parties such as USA; China; Brazil and Europe.

[axiomsofdominion]

It's so ing surreal that Western leftists are whining that "we should negotiate with Putin!!!1!1" when Putin's negotiating position is "I want everything".

Well it is identical to their position on Palestine. Since Ukraine and Israel have US support they must be bad and their enemies should get everything they want.

I don’t really think you understand English if that’s what you believe that “negotiation” or “middle-ground solution” means.

It’s either that or trying to create a scarecrow in bad faith in order to prevent peace talks from ever happening. Which is very easy when it’s not you who have to commit.

Just because Putin/Russia comes to the table with a proposal that benefits Russia (obviously) doesn’t mean that THIS will be the final result of negotiations, just like Zelenskyy/Ukraine saying stuff that the war needs to go on until even Crimea is given back doesn’t mean that it will be the end solution just because it’s the end goal of Ukraine.

The point of negotiations is by nature to put the two sides on the table to scream at each other and then after putting everything out of their system to find COMMITMENT where both sides can claim victory but not really a full victory that satisfies the full demands of both.

Ukraine - Needs to ensure that it still gets to exist on some level and stop sacrificing its entire male youth population. And it needs guarantees that what exists of Ukraine isn’t attacked, a protection that only NATO/EU can give.

Russia - Needs a guarantee domestically that it “won” the war (the only thing that will make it end, as its an existential matter for Russia) and achieved their initial goals and ensuring Eastern Ukraine territories become a buffer zone between the West and Russia is the best way to claim that.

Ukrainian government becoming Neutral or Pro-Russia wouldn’t solve anything as there would still be the unstoppable Anti-Russian sentiment from population after Russia invaded it, so best possible solution is for Ukraine to buy their freedom by giving up the territories it already lost UNDER THE CONDITIONS that it becomes a NATO and EU country.

Which is why USA and Europe need to swallow their pride and drive negotiation talks under those terms in order to give Ukraine the safety conditions it needs. So far Ukrainians have only been used as cheap manpower to somewhat waste Russian military resources, but it’s not sustainable for Ukraine for this to go on forever.

You people say the end goal is to get Russia out of Ukraine completely but NEVER are capable of an intellectual argument on HOW you are going to achieve this idealistic scenario whenever reality forces itself.

And even if this WERE possible, you ignore that Russia would never accept that kind of humiliation and would be forced to escalate in a way they do have capabilities of doing. Which would only ADD more tragedy to Ukraine situation. Your whole mindset in this forum is one of escalation when what we need is de-escalation.

There are 2 simultaneous truths regarding this whole conflict:

1. Ukraine needs to keep existing on any possible level.
2. Russia cannot have a humiliation that forces them to escalate this to something larger.

The sooner you accept these two simultaneous truths, the sooner you will drop your toxic “all-or-nothing” pro-war mentality and support direct negotiation talks between Ukraine and Russia.

The Switzerland forum is a complete joke, you NEED to have both Ukraine and Russia talking directly to each other for anything to get done, under mediation of third parties such as USA; China; Brazil and Europe.

Delusional.

[Storr]

"There are nearly 700 thousand Russian military personnel in the area of the Special Military Operation"

"Russia is forced to push back the front line in the direction of Kharkov to reduce terrorist attacks on Belgorod"

- Putin

Meanwhile, outside of Putin's fantasyland: "Ukrainians from the 3rd Assault Brigade clearing positions in the Kharkiv region. They surrounded the dugout in which the Russians were sitting who confused them with other Russians."

https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1800858873936637953

[Hindsight was 2020]

Oh please Red, Russia demanding Ukraine surrender 5 oblasts to Russia they either partially or majority control as a “condition to start” talks isn’t a hard line it’s a ridiculous demand of a delusional government. Also it’s really telling how much you and Lula demand that Russia’s feelings be respected when you obviously don’t feel that about Israel. In that case you guys want international and economic pressure put on Israel to pull out of Gaza completely something that you not only don’t support for this situation but openly root on your country or South Africa still trading with Russia and enabling their genocide here

[axiomsofdominion]

Oh please Red, Russia demanding Ukraine surrender 5 oblasts to Russia they either partially or majority control as a “condition to start” talks isn’t a hard line it’s a ridiculous demand of a delusional government. Also it’s really telling how much you and Lula demand that Russia’s feelings be respected when you obviously don’t feel that about Israel. In that case you guys want international and economic pressure put on Israel to pull out of Gaza completely something that you not only don’t support for this situation but openly root on your country or South Africa still trading with Russia and enabling their genocide here

I don't know what you expect from Brazil? Business as usual. At least Lula is, somehow, better than Bolsonaro.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Oh please Red, Russia demanding Ukraine surrender 5 oblasts to Russia they either partially or majority control as a “condition to start” talks isn’t a hard line it’s a ridiculous demand of a delusional government. Also it’s really telling how much you and Lula demand that Russia’s feelings be respected when you obviously don’t feel that about Israel. In that case you guys want international and economic pressure put on Israel to pull out of Gaza completely something that you not only don’t support for this situation but openly root on your country or South Africa still trading with Russia and enabling their genocide here

I don't know what you expect from Brazil? Business as usual. At least Lula is, somehow, better than Bolsonaro.

That not fair many Brazilians are based on this issue