Ireland bans handguns

[Bono]

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/ahern-signs-new-gun-control-act-into-law-419908.html

Ahern signs new gun control act into law
24/07/2009 - 11:29:00

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern has signed new gun control legislation into law.

The act bans handguns in Ireland and also introduces a requirement for referees, background medical checks and standards for the safe keeping of guns in the home for all firearms licence applicants.

It also makes it an offence to brandish a realistic imitation firearm in public.

Mr Ahern says the legislation is designed to halt the emergence of a gun culture in Ireland.

Oh noes a gun culture!

Tbh I thought they were already banned. Guess Northern Ireland remains the sole holdout in the British Isles. Kind of ironic if you think about it.

[Mechaman]

In regards to Ireland headed towards a neofacistic state.

As of this moment I would like to disown my Irish heritage once and forever. From now on St. Patrick's Day will be known as "Statist Douchebag Day".

[Хahar 🤔]

In regards to Ireland headed towards a neofacistic state.

As of this moment I would like to disown my Irish heritage once and forever. From now on St. Patrick's Day will be known as "Statist Douchebag Day".

lolz, really?

[Platypus]

In regards to Ireland headed towards a neofacistic state.

As of this moment I would like to disown my Irish heritage once and forever. From now on St. Patrick's Day will be known as "Statist Douchebag Day".

I facepalm your usage of facepalm.

[Mechaman]

In regards to Ireland headed towards a neofacistic state.

As of this moment I would like to disown my Irish heritage once and forever. From now on St. Patrick's Day will be known as "Statist Douchebag Day".

lolz, really?

Yes really.
If there is anything that pisses me off more than moralf****try it's statef****try. People aren't cattle whose only purpose is to eternally serve the evil collectivist state.

[Хahar 🤔]

In regards to Ireland headed towards a neofacistic state.

As of this moment I would like to disown my Irish heritage once and forever. From now on St. Patrick's Day will be known as "Statist Douchebag Day".

lolz, really?

Yes really.
If there is anything that pisses me off more than moralf****try it's statef****try. People aren't cattle whose only purpose is to eternally serve the evil collectivist state.

Nice threadjack.

Let's return to the subject of the thread.

[Mechaman]

In regards to Ireland headed towards a neofacistic state.

As of this moment I would like to disown my Irish heritage once and forever. From now on St. Patrick's Day will be known as "Statist Douchebag Day".

lolz, really?

Yes really.
If there is anything that pisses me off more than moralf****try it's statef****try. People aren't cattle whose only purpose is to eternally serve the evil collectivist state.

Nice threadjack.

Let's return to the subject of the thread.

Threadjack?
I think Ireland taking guns away from their populace and not even allowing them to have toy guns relates pretty well with statism. If they had done it "to reduce crime" or whatever I would just say "bad move". However, the sole purpose of what they did was to prevent the development of "a gun culture" which IMO is nothing but statist. When the government of any nation thinks people shouldn't have the right to defend their own lives that nation no longer cares about individual rights, it only cares about the self preservation of the state.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Joke country.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Good job.

Actually we're at an epoch in which if a state wanna control its population they have far more means than fire weapons, this is old fashioned, US should wake up about it. Or it should be more logical, all the weapons that are in the army should be authorized in the population in order to defend themselves against the state. Eh, that would be cool in TV games, instead of a car you could be THE LUCKY WINNER OF THAT WONDERFUUUL TAAANNNK! No, actually today there are other means to control a population and/or to impose a regime, this is really old fashioned. No matter if a population has weapons or not, the coming and the imposition of a fascist state is always possible, it depends of other criteria.

Banning guns on the other hand contributes to make a less violent society.

[Mechaman]

Good job.

Actually we're at an epoch in which if a state wanna control its population they have far more means than fire weapons, this is old fashioned, US should wake up about it. Or it should be more logical, all the weapons that are in the army should be authorized in the population in order to defend themselves against the state. Eh, that would be cool in TV games, instead of a car you could be THE LUCKY WINNER OF THAT WONDERFUUUL TAAANNNK! No, actually today there are other means to control a population and/or to impose a regime, this is really old fashioned. No matter if a population has weapons or not, the coming and the imposition of a fascist state is always possible, it depends of other criteria.

Banning guns on the other hand contributes to make a less violent society.

I agree with your premise that there are more ways to control a society than by banning guns. George W. Bush proved that with the Patriot Act and other fearmongering measures in the past 8 years. However, the idea that by making a law banning guns that some magic fairy will come out of the sky and instantly BOOM, all guns disappear is fucking ridiculous. This is why gun control is failing big time in the US, because not many people subscribe to the idea that if a gun ban were put into place that suddenly criminals would obey the law and hand in their weapons! In fact, such a law would only create a black market flooding with guns, just like what happened with Prohibition and what is happening right now with the War on Drugs. The result? A skyrocketing crime rate due to criminals taking advantage of the law abiding sheeple who decided it was better to be obey the law than have the means to protect themselves and their family, and those who decided to disobey the law and keep their guns or have to resort to buying from this black market would be treated like criminals. Would you really want that?
Before you even begin on who successful gun control works in Europe, let me add that many European nations aren't nearly as guncentric as the US is. There are way too many guns in circulation in the US for any remotely realisitc gun ban to work effectively. Also, tell me why in Switzerland, where every adult male is armed with a friggin assault rifle, the firearm crime rate is the around the same as Germany where they supposedly got rid of guns? This may not prove that armed societys are safer, but it doesn't prove that disarmed ones are safer still. But still, how do you explain this anomaly? Why is Switzerland safer than Great Britain when it comes to crime despite the fact that a large number of people there have friggin assault rifles while in Great Britain it's illegal to own a firearm?

I think Benjamin Franklin put it best:
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Security, deserve neither LIBERTY nor SECURITY."

[Mechaman]

My honest opinion, instead of using excuses of "well the state already uses political correctness, warrantless spying, military drafts, suspensions of habeus corpus, why don't we just go ahead and get rid of guns?" We should be using this "let's restore all civil liberties to the people: the right to privacy, the right to free speech, the right to not join the army, the right to bear arms, instead of subcombing to the slippery slope of statism?"

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I don't know anyone who owns a gun. I can't imagine anyone I know wanting a gun. Apart from the tiny percentage of people who belong(ed) to the military, hunters and a few farmers, who owns a (legal) gun? What gun culture?

I'm just wondering why this is being passed as law now. Great Recession panic?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Truly shameful.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Good job.

Actually we're at an epoch in which if a state wanna control its population they have far more means than fire weapons, this is old fashioned, US should wake up about it. Or it should be more logical, all the weapons that are in the army should be authorized in the population in order to defend themselves against the state. Eh, that would be cool in TV games, instead of a car you could be THE LUCKY WINNER OF THAT WONDERFUUUL TAAANNNK! No, actually today there are other means to control a population and/or to impose a regime, this is really old fashioned. No matter if a population has weapons or not, the coming and the imposition of a fascist state is always possible, it depends of other criteria.

Banning guns on the other hand contributes to make a less violent society.

I agree with your premise that there are more ways to control a society than by banning guns. George W. Bush proved that with the Patriot Act and other fearmongering measures in the past 8 years. However, the idea that by making a law banning guns that some magic fairy will come out of the sky and instantly BOOM, all guns disappear is fucking ridiculous. This is why gun control is failing big time in the US, because not many people subscribe to the idea that if a gun ban were put into place that suddenly criminals would obey the law and hand in their weapons! In fact, such a law would only create a black market flooding with guns, just like what happened with Prohibition and what is happening right now with the War on Drugs. The result? A skyrocketing crime rate due to criminals taking advantage of the law abiding sheeple who decided it was better to be obey the law than have the means to protect themselves and their family, and those who decided to disobey the law and keep their guns or have to resort to buying from this black market would be treated like criminals. Would you really want that?
Before you even begin on who successful gun control works in Europe, let me add that many European nations aren't nearly as guncentric as the US is. There are way too many guns in circulation in the US for any remotely realisitc gun ban to work effectively. Also, tell me why in Switzerland, where every adult male is armed with a friggin assault rifle, the firearm crime rate is the around the same as Germany where they supposedly got rid of guns? This may not prove that armed societys are safer, but it doesn't prove that disarmed ones are safer still. But still, how do you explain this anomaly? Why is Switzerland safer than Great Britain when it comes to crime despite the fact that a large number of people there have friggin assault rifles while in Great Britain it's illegal to own a firearm?

I think Benjamin Franklin put it best:
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Security, deserve neither LIBERTY nor SECURITY."

Well, like most of people who defend this issue, your arguments are prepared. Ok, you acknowledge that today guns don't matter a lot concerning the possibility of a state to take the control of its population. That's a good point.

Then criminality, violence. Well, you, like a lot of people who defend it, talk about Switzerland. Good point that you have been precise, you cited the fact the weapons every adult males have are some weapons from the army, an assault rifle, so more or less a war weapon I guess, when the average persons have such weapons they may hesitate more to take it with them and use it than if they have that cool and easy handgun.

Anyways, yes, the law on weapons in general, not only this riffle, is more flexible in Switzerland than in other countries of Europe, and, according to you, and I give you my trust for this, criminal rates are less important than in these other European countries. OK. Now, there may be other criteria to analyze. Yes? No? Maybe the fact that Switzerland is a more prosperous, more ethnically homogeneous - let's be clear here I don't mean that there is an ethnic predisposition to weapons and violence, it's just that ethnic minorities use to be discriminated and thus when there is some it creates more tensions in a society, let's continue to be clear, I don't mean here there shouldn't be or there should be less ethnic minorities in a country, at all, I'm just noticing some kinds of "mechanisms" - and a more socially homogeneous country could tend to explain also such things. Oppositely to UK, France, or Germany. To give you a caricature to make this point, you give all the weapons you want to people in Beverly Hills, they may not enjoy themselves by using it... (though, ok, the more you get money the more you have possibilities to being nut, but that's an other debate...)

Anyways again. Seems that Switzerland is not especially enjoying this wonderful status anymore, according to surveys I just watched to on the web, the trend is more and more to the banning. The most recent I've found told that in January 2008 51% of Swiss were favorable to a better control of weapons. Also, still on surveys, some organizations made some showing that the rate of suicide by fire weapon was higher in Switzerland than in other European countries. And in the same time, several other surveys shew that the more you ban easy way to suicide yourself, the more suicide rates decrease. For example a survey shew more precisely that since a better control of fire arms in Austria in 1997 the rates of suicide by fire weapons have decrease, and the rate of suicide by other means haven't increase. All I found was in French, if ever you want links tell me.

Anyways finally. We fall agree that a state doesn't need to ban firearms to control a population, some laws passed by that fake cow-boy that was Bush was effectively a wonderful example of this, and in your second post you seem to be more interested in the principle of freedom overall, but here we're talking about tools of easy and heavy violence, the more you ban them, the more you ban the possibility of expression of easy and heavy violence within a society. When you ban it, less people have it, so less people are afraid of being attacked with, and it's virtuous circle, they are less afraid so they are less tempted to have one, etc. And this contributes to a less violent society. Violence, especially by gun is being made sexy, but actually, it kills.

Then, you tell me about the fact that it would be too hard to set it up in the US because of the current situation. The only thing I can answer is: either you renounce to a principle because it would be too hard, or you keep the principle and try to do the dirty job.

And, to finish, some quotes are really seductive, especially if more of that they come from great people but it doesn't necessarily makes of them some theorems...

[Jens]

I just luuuuv Libertarianz. I apparently live in a hardcore dictatorship, since we have had such gun laws for quite some time.

[Bono]

I just luuuuv Libertarianz. I apparently live in a hardcore dictatorship, since we have had such gun laws for quite some time.

Denmark bans handguns? I thought that the UK (sans Northern Ireland) and now Ireland were the only European countries to have an absolute ban..

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I just luuuuv Libertarianz. I apparently live in a hardcore dictatorship, since we have had such gun laws for quite some time.

Denmark bans handguns? I thought that the UK (sans Northern Ireland) and now Ireland were the only European countries to have an absolute ban..

For your information I just checked politics.ie and found very few threads on the topic, most (possibly all) of which were made by someone in the target shooting community, the very definition of a minority pass time. Most people who posted saw this act as political grandstanding which will achieve little but makes the govt look like they were doing something (which is what I think it is). No-one argued that gun ownership was a 'right' or anything like that, only that it was wrong to discriminate against target shooters. No one argued for a liberal gun regime ala the United States - which was usually seen as the model to avoid. In short, no-one cares. No-one's idea of liberty is to be so scared that gun ownership is perceived to necessary for security (which strikes me as the opposite of liberty, but hey, whatever).

FYI I am actually against this legislation.

[Хahar 🤔]

Why do libertarians have to ѕhit all over every single thread?

[k-onmmunist]

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/ahern-signs-new-gun-control-act-into-law-419908.html

Ahern signs new gun control act into law
24/07/2009 - 11:29:00

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern has signed new gun control legislation into law.

The act bans handguns in Ireland and also introduces a requirement for referees, background medical checks and standards for the safe keeping of guns in the home for all firearms licence applicants.

It also makes it an offence to brandish a realistic imitation firearm in public.

Mr Ahern says the legislation is designed to halt the emergence of a gun culture in Ireland.

Oh noes a gun culture!

Tbh I thought they were already banned. Guess Northern Ireland remains the sole holdout in the British Isles. Kind of ironic if you think about it.

Great news

[Mechaman]

Good job.

Actually we're at an epoch in which if a state wanna control its population they have far more means than fire weapons, this is old fashioned, US should wake up about it. Or it should be more logical, all the weapons that are in the army should be authorized in the population in order to defend themselves against the state. Eh, that would be cool in TV games, instead of a car you could be THE LUCKY WINNER OF THAT WONDERFUUUL TAAANNNK! No, actually today there are other means to control a population and/or to impose a regime, this is really old fashioned. No matter if a population has weapons or not, the coming and the imposition of a fascist state is always possible, it depends of other criteria.

Banning guns on the other hand contributes to make a less violent society.

I agree with your premise that there are more ways to control a society than by banning guns. George W. Bush proved that with the Patriot Act and other fearmongering measures in the past 8 years. However, the idea that by making a law banning guns that some magic fairy will come out of the sky and instantly BOOM, all guns disappear is fucking ridiculous. This is why gun control is failing big time in the US, because not many people subscribe to the idea that if a gun ban were put into place that suddenly criminals would obey the law and hand in their weapons! In fact, such a law would only create a black market flooding with guns, just like what happened with Prohibition and what is happening right now with the War on Drugs. The result? A skyrocketing crime rate due to criminals taking advantage of the law abiding sheeple who decided it was better to be obey the law than have the means to protect themselves and their family, and those who decided to disobey the law and keep their guns or have to resort to buying from this black market would be treated like criminals. Would you really want that?
Before you even begin on who successful gun control works in Europe, let me add that many European nations aren't nearly as guncentric as the US is. There are way too many guns in circulation in the US for any remotely realisitc gun ban to work effectively. Also, tell me why in Switzerland, where every adult male is armed with a friggin assault rifle, the firearm crime rate is the around the same as Germany where they supposedly got rid of guns? This may not prove that armed societys are safer, but it doesn't prove that disarmed ones are safer still. But still, how do you explain this anomaly? Why is Switzerland safer than Great Britain when it comes to crime despite the fact that a large number of people there have friggin assault rifles while in Great Britain it's illegal to own a firearm?

I think Benjamin Franklin put it best:
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Security, deserve neither LIBERTY nor SECURITY."

Well, like most of people who defend this issue, your arguments are prepared. Ok, you acknowledge that today guns don't matter a lot concerning the possibility of a state to take the control of its population. That's a good point.

Then criminality, violence. Well, you, like a lot of people who defend it, talk about Switzerland. Good point that you have been precise, you cited the fact the weapons every adult males have are some weapons from the army, an assault rifle, so more or less a war weapon I guess, when the average persons have such weapons they may hesitate more to take it with them and use it than if they have that cool and easy handgun.

Anyways, yes, the law on weapons in general, not only this riffle, is more flexible in Switzerland than in other countries of Europe, and, according to you, and I give you my trust for this, criminal rates are less important than in these other European countries. OK. Now, there may be other criteria to analyze. Yes? No? Maybe the fact that Switzerland is a more prosperous, more ethnically homogeneous - let's be clear here I don't mean that there is an ethnic predisposition to weapons and violence, it's just that ethnic minorities use to be discriminated and thus when there is some it creates more tensions in a society, let's continue to be clear, I don't mean here there shouldn't be or there should be less ethnic minorities in a country, at all, I'm just noticing some kinds of "mechanisms" - and a more socially homogeneous country could tend to explain also such things. Oppositely to UK, France, or Germany. To give you a caricature to make this point, you give all the weapons you want to people in Beverly Hills, they may not enjoy themselves by using it... (though, ok, the more you get money the more you have possibilities to being nut, but that's an other debate...)

Anyways again. Seems that Switzerland is not especially enjoying this wonderful status anymore, according to surveys I just watched to on the web, the trend is more and more to the banning. The most recent I've found told that in January 2008 51% of Swiss were favorable to a better control of weapons. Also, still on surveys, some organizations made some showing that the rate of suicide by fire weapon was higher in Switzerland than in other European countries. And in the same time, several other surveys shew that the more you ban easy way to suicide yourself, the more suicide rates decrease. For example a survey shew more precisely that since a better control of fire arms in Austria in 1997 the rates of suicide by fire weapons have decrease, and the rate of suicide by other means haven't increase. All I found was in French, if ever you want links tell me.

Anyways finally. We fall agree that a state doesn't need to ban firearms to control a population, some laws passed by that fake cow-boy that was Bush was effectively a wonderful example of this, and in your second post you seem to be more interested in the principle of freedom overall, but here we're talking about tools of easy and heavy violence, the more you ban them, the more you ban the possibility of expression of easy and heavy violence within a society. When you ban it, less people have it, so less people are afraid of being attacked with, and it's virtuous circle, they are less afraid so they are less tempted to have one, etc. And this contributes to a less violent society. Violence, especially by gun is being made sexy, but actually, it kills.

Then, you tell me about the fact that it would be too hard to set it up in the US because of the current situation. The only thing I can answer is: either you renounce to a principle because it would be too hard, or you keep the principle and try to do the dirty job.

And, to finish, some quotes are really seductive, especially if more of that they come from great people but it doesn't necessarily makes of them some theorems...

That seems to be a more solid reasoning than just "OMG libertarians are so braindead!" that I hear all the time from guys like Xahar.

[Jens]

I just luuuuv Libertarianz. I apparently live in a hardcore dictatorship, since we have had such gun laws for quite some time.

Denmark bans handguns? I thought that the UK (sans Northern Ireland) and now Ireland were the only European countries to have an absolute ban..

The only way for "normal" people to own a handgun is via competitive shooting clubs, and the gun has to be in the club.

[Lief 🗽]

Sounds like pretty common sense legislation to me.

[Bono]

Sounds like pretty common sense legislation to me.

See, this is why no one believes the Brady bunch when they say they only avor "common sense gun regulation".

[Bono]

I just luuuuv Libertarianz. I apparently live in a hardcore dictatorship, since we have had such gun laws for quite some time.

Denmark bans handguns? I thought that the UK (sans Northern Ireland) and now Ireland were the only European countries to have an absolute ban..

For your information I just checked politics.ie and found very few threads on the topic, most (possibly all) of which were made by someone in the target shooting community, the very definition of a minority pass time. Most people who posted saw this act as political grandstanding which will achieve little but makes the govt look like they were doing something (which is what I think it is). No-one argued that gun ownership was a 'right' or anything like that, only that it was wrong to discriminate against target shooters. No one argued for a liberal gun regime ala the United States - which was usually seen as the model to avoid. In short, no-one cares. No-one's idea of liberty is to be so scared that gun ownership is perceived to necessary for security (which strikes me as the opposite of liberty, but hey, whatever).

FYI I am actually against this legislation.

Yea, you are against the legislation, you just happen to think everyone else who is against it is an idiot.

Fundamental rights aren't (or shouldn't be) contingent on popularity.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Sounds like pretty common sense legislation to me.

See, this is why no one believes the Brady bunch when they say they only avor "common sense gun regulation".

     Bear in mind that common sense for a socialist is not the sort of sense we want public policy to be based on.