A few thoughts from your PO; AMENDMENTS AT VOTE (user search)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 09:59:21 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Elections
  Atlas Fantasy Government
  Constitutional Convention (Moderators: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee, Lumine)
  A few thoughts from your PO; AMENDMENTS AT VOTE (search mode)
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: A few thoughts from your PO; AMENDMENTS AT VOTE  (Read 53799 times)
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« on: June 28, 2009, 09:53:34 PM »

* Abolish regional Senate seats.
* Mandate that all powers not specifically devolved to the Regions (by appropriate legislation and/or constitutional fiat) are the responsibility of the national government.
* Have two month terms for the now all at-large seats.
* Allow for dual officeholding.
* Make the process of amendment easier.
* Allow more flexibility in the responsibilities and composition of the Cabinet.
* (Optional) Expand the size of the Senate and make it so Cabinet members most come from the Senate.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2009, 10:14:19 PM »

* Abolish regional Senate seats.
* Mandate that all powers not specifically devolved to the Regions (by appropriate legislation and/or constitutional fiat) are the responsibility of the national government.
* Have two month terms for the now all at-large seats.
* Allow for dual officeholding.
* Make the process of amendment easier.
* Allow more flexibility in the responsibilities and composition of the Cabinet.
* (Optional) Expand the size of the Senate and make it so Cabinet members most come from the Senate.

So this would shift power away from the regions, centralize and clean up the process to remove the inertia we generally see in Atlasia.

Well, probably not, but as radical reform is no longer an option, might as well do the best we can Wink

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Thankfully, the abstract concepts {region} are not voting on this; it is a decision to be made by individual Atlasians, and I hope individual Atlasians are sensible enough to, at the very least, see the complete inactivity of the regional elections.  Now, as to whether the individual voters of, say, the, quote, "Dirty South" Region would support this, I don't know.  But my views are so constantly censured that I have to presume my ideas are wildly out of the mainstream, so I'd support voting on each one one-by-one.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2009, 10:22:55 PM »

Districts were a terrible idea (as I recall, all the reasons people are using now to attack regional seats were used against them), but just having regional seats has proved to be no better.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Thankfully, the abstract concepts {region} are not voting on this; it is a decision to be made by individual Atlasians, and I hope individual Atlasians are sensible enough to, at the very least, see the complete inactivity of the regional elections.  Now, as to whether the individual voters of, say, the, quote, "Dirty South" Region would support this, I don't know.  But my views are so constantly censured that I have to presume my ideas are wildly out of the mainstream, so I'd support voting on each one one-by-one.

I would like to try regional reform first and see if a Mideast-style region would produce more activity, or if the Mideast is just unusual.

You know as well as I that if they didn't end up working out they would still be kept, as the motivation for reform will have died out.

Besides, I proposed having the Midwest be run more like a parliamentary/legislative system a year or two ago, and it didn't get off the ground.  The Midwest (and, I would argue, all the regions, but the Midwest is still the smallest I think?) is likely too small to sustain a 3-member legislature, but a two-member legislature is just silly when we have a "Governor" and "Lieutenant Governor" already.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2009, 10:49:26 PM »

Like I said, we hardly have enough people in the Midwest to sustain the two positions we have, let alone add three more.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Thankfully, the abstract concepts {region} are not voting on this; it is a decision to be made by individual Atlasians, and I hope individual Atlasians are sensible enough to, at the very least, see the complete inactivity of the regional elections.  Now, as to whether the individual voters of, say, the, quote, "Dirty South" Region would support this, I don't know.  But my views are so constantly censured that I have to presume my ideas are wildly out of the mainstream, so I'd support voting on each one one-by-one.

You know as well as I that the abstract region matters quite a bite in these circumstances. I would like to find something progressive that we can actually pass. No use in spending another two months on something that popular sentiment will thoroughly reject.

No, I agree that issues of regionalism will make a matter to the outcome.  I'm just saying that your statement seems to question whether regions will endorse this plan, whereas I was saying that it doesn't matter whether "regions" endorse this plan, but whether the citizens of each region think it's a good idea.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2009, 10:52:36 PM »

I'm opposed to a bicameral, non-universalist system; weren't a lot of objections raised to universalism because it would create too much bureaucratic nonsense?

If we persist in forcing regional Senate seats on Atlasia (even if they're called "Governors"), let's put them on equal footing with normal seats, not cripple them even more.  If regional Senate seats aren't competitive (and they aren't) then I don't think taking power away will help that any Tongue

A Midwest Assembly is great on paper, but would probably be a failure in practice. It simply isn't viable with the amount of citizens in the region.

More later, I'm tired.

Which is why we need redistricting, to make sure regions are adequately populated.

So regions would be like the old districts but with a different name and more power? Tongue

The whole point of regions was originally to have distinct regional flavors, akin to states IRL, to contrast with districts, which would help ensure equal representation for all.  Regions with district-like shifting boundaries would essentially render regions even more carbon-copy-like than they are now.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2009, 11:18:52 PM »

Jee... thanks, Vepres Huh

I'm opposed to a bicameral, non-universalist system; weren't a lot of objections raised to universalism because it would create too much bureaucratic nonsense?

If we persist in forcing regional Senate seats on Atlasia (even if they're called "Governors"), let's put them on equal footing with normal seats, not cripple them even more.  If regional Senate seats aren't competitive (and they aren't) then I don't think taking power away will help that any Tongue

A Midwest Assembly is great on paper, but would probably be a failure in practice. It simply isn't viable with the amount of citizens in the region.

More later, I'm tired.

Which is why we need redistricting, to make sure regions are adequately populated.

So regions would be like the old districts but with a different name and more power? Tongue

The whole point of regions was originally to have distinct regional flavors, akin to states IRL, to contrast with districts, which would help ensure equal representation for all.  Regions with district-like shifting boundaries would essentially render regions even more carbon-copy-like than they are now.

We won't be crippling regional Senate seats or forcing them on Atlasia. We will be removing them altogether, thus making governor elections more competitive. And the CoG will be on equal footing with the national Senate seats.

I'm glad you agree there is an overabundance of regional positions, but I'm not sure this is the solution to the problem.  The functions of the Governors would then become, under your plan:

* The role of a Senator.
* The role of a Governor (which nobody really cares about).

So you tell me what would be running for... the responsibilities of national governance, or the responsibilities of... Huh Wink

If we do end up keeping regional Senate seats (and I hope we don't), I would support consolidation of those seats and the position of Governor.  That makes more sense than the system we have now.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm not sure number of members is a great metric for this, though.  Back in my day, sonny boy, the Midwest was one of the most active regions, despite being the smallest, as measured by things like turnout rates and number of regional initiatives. (Again, in my estimation, it's not the size, government style, etc. of the different regions that determines activity, but the characteristics of the individuals involved)

How about some level of self-determination by individual states?  Perhaps if the members were allowed to choose which region they were a part of (and have some mechanism to make that change that's easier than it is now), they would be more likely to be active simply as a result of having invested something in choosing the region they were a part of.  Or we could see something akin to "birds of a feather flock together"; so you who want regional legislatures could have your own region, I could have a little fiefdom, and so on Wink
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2009, 11:49:58 PM »

Jee... thanks, Vepres Huh  Vepres, you're absolutely right, as usual. I should listen to you more often. ilikeverin youlikeverin wealllikeverin hughughug
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2009, 07:28:29 PM »

Look, "coulda would shoulda" don't matter.  We are having a debate here about what is, not what would be if everything worked perfectly.  I have presented empirical evidence that regional Senate contests are significantly less competitive than national ones:

Number of regions with competitive Senate elections (defined as ones that went past the first round)

Feb 2008: 1
June 2008: 2
Oct 2008: 1 (though "spoiled ballots" almost beat than all other candidates combined in this one)
Feb 2009: 2
June 2009: 1

(updated to take into account Midwest Senate which went into a second round)

In each of these elections, if only people were more active, they would've been competitive.  But the problem is that people aren't, and we have to admit this fact.

If you wish to argue over the metric I used to measure competition, I don't have a problem, but I have a feeling no matter what objectively-measurable criteria you use regional Senate elections are still a good deal less competitive than national ones.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2009, 02:35:37 PM »

What "massive" reform do I advocate now? Because if a CoG and all nationally-elected Senate seats is too "massive" for people, then we might as well shut down the ConCon right now.

Agreed. Seriously the stuff being proposed, if one takes even a slight glance, will clearly help the game. Regional Senate seats are crap. Governors are crap. But by creating a separate chamber, a CoG, and removing regional senators, we can make newly competitive, activity-inducing positions for the game.

I'm supportive of a Council of Governors, but if we eliminate regional senate seats while adding the Governors to the legislature, aren't we basically just eliminating overall offices and giving a new name to regional Senators? I mean, it's essentially just shuffling things around a bit.

Edit: All the while reducing overall participation.

I made the same point earlier, but it's still better than the current system.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2009, 11:59:27 PM »

And I'll try a third argument that I don't think has been used before: I agree with MasterJedi and NC Yankee in that it's possible that despite our best efforts these reforms will not fix anything involving activity in Atlasia.  So why not try to scale the size of the government to match the activity of Atlasia, rather than the other way around?  Having fewer positions will push the few members that we have who are always active into races against each other, and having those positions be national will ensure that all active members will be beneficial to all the nation rather than 1/5.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2009, 10:26:07 AM »

While I am at least sympathetic to the people who want a regional legislature, I can't understand for the life of me why there are regional judiciaries.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2009, 12:17:24 PM »

Yeah.  And there's no reason the Supreme Court would not be able to take up their "caseload", because said caseload does not exist.  That's why the Midwest devolved our judicial branch to the federal level.  It's never been used!

I'm not sure it would make sense to put a clause in the constitution to specifically abolish them, but I would absolutely oppose any attempts to give regional judiciaries any power.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2009, 07:33:29 PM »

While your compromise plan does eliminate elections for regional Senators, it retains the offices.  By your own admission, your total plan results in a net gain of 3-5 positions.  We have too many positions and not enough active players to fill them all, whether elected or appointed.  Granted, making it an appointed position eliminates the need for having an opponent in elections.  But it does nothing to add to the game.

Right.  If anything, it saps even more active players from national elections... exactly the opposite of what is desirable.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2009, 09:24:16 PM »

While your compromise plan does eliminate elections for regional Senators, it retains the offices.  By your own admission, your total plan results in a net gain of 3-5 positions.  We have too many positions and not enough active players to fill them all, whether elected or appointed.  Granted, making it an appointed position eliminates the need for having an opponent in elections.  But it does nothing to add to the game.

Right.  If anything, it saps even more active players from national elections... exactly the opposite of what is desirable.

Absolutely clueless bullsh**t. The people that are not appointed, or lose the Governorship can run Nationally since they rarely if ever coincide. To say it saps players from the national scene is very pressumptious since your plans do the same to the regions and that is in my opinion where the most activity is needed.

How is it presumptuous?  By definition, those players who are appointed will not be running for anything nationally (or regionally, for that matter), unless they want to jeopardize their job security for some reason.  So you'll be removing them from making national elections more competitive.
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2009, 07:14:17 PM »

While others do what I'm sure will be an adequate job of disagreeing with some of the main points of the article, I'll nitpick.

Maybe we could make it so judicial powers have to be devolved specifically to Regions by the national government?
Logged
ilikeverin
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 16,410
Timor-Leste


« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2009, 07:02:54 PM »

There is no compelling reason to provide reverence to the regions, except that we no longer have the power to stop it. I also think the regions provide enough benefit to the game to warrant maintaining them and, yes, empowering them.

In what sense?

Now I'm starting to get really upset that nobody ever answers my questions. Note that my comment wasn't originally directed at you.

Nobody's going to answer our questions in a way that is satisfactory to us; I've just given up on it Tongue
Logged
Pages: [1]  
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.036 seconds with 13 queries.