Do you have any respect for anyone involved in the Confederacy?

[12th Doctor]

Of course, Lincoln never blamed the South for slavery at all.  He believed that the Civil War was punishment for America's sins and that both North and South were equally culpable.

That's a very intesting viewpoint; do you have any sources?  I'm not trying to call you out or anything, I'd just be fascinated to see a few quotes because this is a novel concept to me.

The documentaries April 1865, Lincoln, and books like Abraham Lincoln: And Civil War America and the David Donald biography all take this view.  There are many other media that do, but those are things that I have specifically seen and read, and they base their assertions off of known letters, and personal conversations of his, and the idea is contained in many of his speeches, though not explicitly stated. 

[12th Doctor]

His Second Inaugural, in particular, as well as his last speech, were heavy with this theme.

[Earth]

Hell no. Show me a graveyard for Confederate veterarns and I'll show you where I'm taking a piss.

Fuck the Confederacy and everyone single person involved. It was nothing but evil.

I'm sure the Union was a bunch of moral men in a knitting circle. This is the dumbest goddamn thing you've posted. Salut!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Hell no. Show me a graveyard for Confederate veterarns and I'll show you where I'm taking a piss.

Fuck the Confederacy and everyone single person involved. It was nothing but evil.

So, you despise Lee, because he fought for the South, although he never believed in slavery, but you think the Sherman is one of the good guys, because he remained loyal to the Union, but honestly believed there was nothing wrong with slavery?

And you slam others for being blindly patriotic.

It's not so much about being patriotic as really hating the other side. I wouldn't be blindly nationalist if I were a British citizen either but that doesn't mean I wouldn't have loved it when the government killed IRA members.

[SPC]

BRTD, let's suppose your country, which I would assume does actions that you highly disapprove of, is invaded by a foreign power. Do you have respect for those who want to fight the occupiers?

Also, do you have respect for the free black men who fought with the Confederates?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, let's suppose your country, which I would assume does actions that you highly disapprove of, is invaded by a foreign power. Do you have respect for those who want to fight the occupiers?

That's not what happened in the Civil War.

Also, do you have respect for the free black men who fought with the Confederates?

No, traitors.

[JSojourner]

Having owned and/or read hundreds, possibily thousands by now, of letters written by Union and Confederate soldiers (and a modest number of diaries), I can assure you that...

 --  there was no shortage of northern soldiers who hated and detested blacks, slaves and Abraham Lincoln.  Lincoln's "n*gger" war, many of them called it.

--  there were many Confederate soldiers who were basically ambivalent about slavery and who had a deep sense of affection for the slaves.  I do not presume to comment on the peculiar nature of the white-black relationship in the South.  I merely report it.

It should also be noted that...

-- Slavery was hardly a southern institution in this country.  The north benefitted for many years from human slavery.  You may rightly credit us Yankees with "seeing the light" first.  But let's not get too haughty.  The British "saw the light" before any of us.

-- Conditions for blacks in the Union north were only marginally better than for slaves.  This does not excuse the diabolical institution of slavery.  But it should prod us to greater humility in our criticism of our Southern cousins.

-- While I regard the Confederacy as a rebel state that instigated hostilities with us, it would be exceedinly dishonest of me to pretend that all Confederates were brutes, war criminals or monsters.  Likewise, to pretend that Union soldiers and officers were all humane is obscene. You can point to "war crimes" committed by each side.

--  In a related vein, and I have addressed this before here, perhaps the greatest travesty of this period is how prisoners of war were treated.  One always hears of the inhumane and brutal treatment of Union POWs at Andersonville.  Fair enough.  Andersonville was a hell hole of shocking proportions -- and even though the Confederacy lacked the resources to feed these brave men -- arrangements for exchange or even a simple handover of prisoners could have been made.  In the name of humanity.  But before I strut around like a morally superior peacock, I must point out that my beloved Union had the means and the goods to care for the needs to Confederate POWs.  In some places, such as Point Lookout, captured Rebs were treated very well.  In others, conditions were almost as vile as in Andersonville.  Elmira was a pit of despair.  Johnson's Island saw the preventable deaths of many a Confederate officer.  And most disgusting of all -- Camp Douglas in Chicago -- was a swamp where positively nothing was done to stem disease and death.  Little was done to ease the hunger of our Southern brethren.  And perhaps the greatest offense -- Chicago gentry often gathered around the prison on higher ground to gawk at, insult and throw objects at the Confederates there. 

I won't buy one minute's worth of Southern Heritage tripe about how the slaves were well-treated, better off and lucky. I don't, for a second, subscribe to the notion that a state has the right to say "screw you" to the rest of America and simply secede.  But it's categorically wrong to behave as though there were all white hats on the northern side and all black hats on the Southern one.

If the Civil War were only beginning today, I am sure I would fight for the Union and against the institution of slavery.  Not because my Southern neighbors are evil...but because I refuse to live in an America without them.

[Mechaman]

Having owned and/or read hundreds, possibily thousands by now, of letters written by Union and Confederate soldiers (and a modest number of diaries), I can assure you that...

 --  there was no shortage of northern soldiers who hated and detested blacks, slaves and Abraham Lincoln.  Lincoln's "n*gger" war, many of them called it.

--  there were many Confederate soldiers who were basically ambivalent about slavery and who had a deep sense of affection for the slaves.  I do not presume to comment on the peculiar nature of the white-black relationship in the South.  I merely report it.

It should also be noted that...

-- Slavery was hardly a southern institution in this country.  The north benefitted for many years from human slavery.  You may rightly credit us Yankees with "seeing the light" first.  But let's not get too haughty.  The British "saw the light" before any of us.

-- Conditions for blacks in the Union north were only marginally better than for slaves.  This does not excuse the diabolical institution of slavery.  But it should prod us to greater humility in our criticism of our Southern cousins.

-- While I regard the Confederacy as a rebel state that instigated hostilities with us, it would be exceedinly dishonest of me to pretend that all Confederates were brutes, war criminals or monsters.  Likewise, to pretend that Union soldiers and officers were all humane is obscene. You can point to "war crimes" committed by each side.

--  In a related vein, and I have addressed this before here, perhaps the greatest travesty of this period is how prisoners of war were treated.  One always hears of the inhumane and brutal treatment of Union POWs at Andersonville.  Fair enough.  Andersonville was a hell hole of shocking proportions -- and even though the Confederacy lacked the resources to feed these brave men -- arrangements for exchange or even a simple handover of prisoners could have been made.  In the name of humanity.  But before I strut around like a morally superior peacock, I must point out that my beloved Union had the means and the goods to care for the needs to Confederate POWs.  In some places, such as Point Lookout, captured Rebs were treated very well.  In others, conditions were almost as vile as in Andersonville.  Elmira was a pit of despair.  Johnson's Island saw the preventable deaths of many a Confederate officer.  And most disgusting of all -- Camp Douglas in Chicago -- was a swamp where positively nothing was done to stem disease and death.  Little was done to ease the hunger of our Southern brethren.  And perhaps the greatest offense -- Chicago gentry often gathered around the prison on higher ground to gawk at, insult and throw objects at the Confederates there. 

I won't buy one minute's worth of Southern Heritage tripe about how the slaves were well-treated, better off and lucky. I don't, for a second, subscribe to the notion that a state has the right to say "screw you" to the rest of America and simply secede.  But it's categorically wrong to behave as though there were all white hats on the northern side and all black hats on the Southern one.

If the Civil War were only beginning today, I am sure I would fight for the Union and against the institution of slavery.  Not because my Southern neighbors are evil...but because I refuse to live in an America without them.

This post is by far the most goddamn honest post I've read on this subject.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

--  there was no shortage of northern Allied soldiers who hated and detested blacks, slaves and Abraham Lincoln Jews, gypsies and Slavs.  Lincoln's "n*gger" "Churchill/Roosevelt's Kike" war, many of them called it.

Probably also true. BTW they were not "northern" soldiers, they were American soldiers.

--  there were many Confederate soldiers who were basically ambivalent about slavery Jews and who had a deep sense of affection for the slaves Jews.  I do not presume to comment on the peculiar nature of the white-black relationship in the South.  I merely report it.

Also probably true.

It should also be noted that...

-- Slavery was hardly a southern institution in this country.  The north benefitted for many years from human slavery.

As has every country ever in the history of humankind prior to slavery's abolishment.

You may rightly credit us Yankees with "seeing the light" first.  But let's not get too haughty.  The British "saw the light" before any of us.

-- Conditions for blacks in the Union north were only marginally better than for slaves.  This does not excuse the diabolical institution of slavery.  But it should prod us to greater humility in our criticism of our Southern cousins.

Marginally? Not quite. Also note we are compare de facto and de jure conditions. There's still plenty of de facto segregated towns, are they no better than the in the time of segregation.

-- While I regard the Confederacy as a rebel state that instigated hostilities with us, it would be exceedinly dishonest of me to pretend that all Confederates were brutes, war criminals or monsters.  Likewise, to pretend that Union soldiers and officers were all humane is obscene. You can point to "war crimes" committed by each side.

A point which if anyone actually bothers to make beyond the sheer obviousness of is quite Moderate Hero.

--  In a related vein, and I have addressed this before here, perhaps the greatest travesty of this period is how prisoners of war were treated.  One always hears of the inhumane and brutal treatment of Union POWs at Andersonville.  Fair enough.  Andersonville was a hell hole of shocking proportions -- and even though the Confederacy lacked the resources to feed these brave men -- arrangements for exchange or even a simple handover of prisoners could have been made.  In the name of humanity.  But before I strut around like a morally superior peacock, I must point out that my beloved Union had the means and the goods to care for the needs to Confederate POWs.  In some places, such as Point Lookout, captured Rebs were treated very well.  In others, conditions were almost as vile as in Andersonville.  Elmira was a pit of despair.  Johnson's Island saw the preventable deaths of many a Confederate officer.  And most disgusting of all -- Camp Douglas in Chicago -- was a swamp where positively nothing was done to stem disease and death.  Little was done to ease the hunger of our Southern brethren.  And perhaps the greatest offense -- Chicago gentry often gathered around the prison on higher ground to gawk at, insult and throw objects at the Confederates there. 

I probably would've done the same. Like I would've done to any arrested IRA terrorists.

[Rob]

BTW they were not "northern" soldiers, they were American soldiers.

This is particularly relevant, considering that tens of thousands of southerners chose to fight under the United States flag. When Nathan "Grand Dragon" Forrest's troops captured Fort Pillow in Tennessee, for example, they didn't just murder black American troops- they murdered scores of Appalachian whites who fought alongside them.

[12th Doctor]

The #1 reason for the conditions at Andersonville was Grant's order to end all prisoner exchange.  The Confederates didn't want to hold onto the Union prisoners at all, but they had no choice.

Meanwhile, the Union prisoners there were being feed the exact same rations that Confederate soldiers in the field were being feed, and often times more.

By contrast, while Confederate POW's in the North were being feed more on the whole, the Union was routinely violating agreements and established custom, by feeding them considerably less than their own soldiers.

[12th Doctor]

BTW they were not "northern" soldiers, they were American soldiers.

This is particularly relevant, considering that tens of thousands of southerners chose to fight under the United States flag. When Nathan "Grand Dragon" Forrest's troops captured Fort Pillow in Tennessee, for example, they didn't just murder black American troops- they murdered scores of Appalachian whites who fought alongside them.

There will many in the North who expressed Southern sympathies and most of them were thrown in prison.

[??????????]

BTW they were not "northern" soldiers, they were American soldiers.

This is particularly relevant, considering that tens of thousands of southerners chose to fight under the United States flag. When Nathan "Grand Dragon" Forrest's troops captured Fort Pillow in Tennessee, for example, they didn't just murder black American troops- they murdered scores of Appalachian whites who fought alongside them.

Wow, insulting Forrest with a bunch of discredited slanders I see. And the soldiers at Ft Pillow weren't "murdered".

[minionofmidas]

There will many in the North who expressed Southern sympathies

Not nearly as many as the other way round... unless we're using a very expansive definition of the "North" (including all of Eastern Tennessee, say - almost throughout a Union held territory with a Unionist majority population. But certainly not "northern".)

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Uh, no.

[JSojourner]

BTW they were not "northern" soldiers, they were American soldiers.

This is particularly relevant, considering that tens of thousands of southerners chose to fight under the United States flag. When Nathan "Grand Dragon" Forrest's troops captured Fort Pillow in Tennessee, for example, they didn't just murder black American troops- they murdered scores of Appalachian whites who fought alongside them.

Wow, insulting Forrest with a bunch of discredited slanders I see. And the soldiers at Ft Pillow weren't "murdered".

Can you back that up States?  It is my understanding Forrest was absolutely a leader of the fledgling Ku Klux Klan...had pledged himself to "controlling the state's n*ggers" and was present during and permitted the Fort Pillow massacre.

We cannot, as I have state above, disregard the reality that Union troops committed crimes against Southern soldiers and civilians.  And we should condemn those actions.  But to portray Forrest (unless I really don't know my history) as a victim of revisionism is equally unjust.  The man was a great tactician, a superb horseman and an adequate railroad executive.  He was also the man who permitted mass murder of unarmed black soldiers...and who participated in "night rides" throughout Tennessee in the immediate post war years.  That he quit the Klan is a good thing, but I have doubts it was the result of a changed heart and mind with regard to his fellow human beings of darker complexion.

As to my friend BRTD's comments, I do understand.  It's taken me awhile to get to this point so it may take more time before I reach your level of maturity on this issue.  I am a work in progress, after all.  But I think I can speak with at least a modicum of authority on the subjects of both the Civil War and the racist mind.  The latter, because I was once a racist of (at least) Van Der Blubbian proportions.  (And likely, worse.)  The former, because I have owned and read the accounts of those who were there in their own hand.  Your comparision to World War Two is interesting and quite tempting.  But it really only validates my view that, as the Civil War was not fought to end slavery (though that was the happy result), so the "Great Patriotic War" <grin> was not fought for the sake of saving the Jews, Gays and Romany peoples of Europe.  You and I are, I am certain, in total agreement that human slavery based upon race and genocide based upon race, politics, religion or sexual orientation are repugnant. 

But to get to the heart of what I am certain you are driving at:  Yes. I do have respect for some of the people who lived in Germany during the Nazi reign of terror.  Mostly, of course, for dissidents and critics of Hitler.  But also for the average German soldier or sailor who felt obligated to fight Bolshevism or British imperialism or what have you.  It is one thing to stand guard over the ovens at Auschwitz and say, "I am doing my duty".  It is quite another to swab the decks of a U-boat or guard a convoy and say, "I am doing my duty."  If you or I lived in Germany at the time, I am quite sure the both of us would loathe Hitler and the Nazis.  I am less certain either of us would accept the one-way ticket to Dachau that came with openly declaring opposition to the regime.  I view the Confederacy in similar light.  And I want to approach to issue with a semblance of humility, recognizing that being a "man of my time" does not excuse me from immorality or insulate me from responsibility.  Yet it should lend context and subtlety to the discussion that, too often, we liberals fail to employ. 

   Too, we must define what we mean by "respect".  I can, for instance, respect Werner Von Braun's intellect, even though I certainly wish he had refused to work for Hitler.  I can marvel at the genius that was Thomas Jefferson.  But mourn his ownership of other human beings. Does that make sense?  In a less serious vein, it's rather like saying, "I respect Jimi Hendrix's skills with the guitar.  I deplore his abuse of narcotics and other drugs."

[12th Doctor]

There will many in the North who expressed Southern sympathies

Not nearly as many as the other way round... unless we're using a very expansive definition of the "North" (including all of Eastern Tennessee, say - almost throughout a Union held territory with a Unionist majority population. But certainly not "northern".)

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Uh, no.

Ummm... yes, actually, alot of newspaper editors were thrown in prison, and the Radical Republicans (of which Lincoln was not a "member") black listed, assaulted, and silenced a number of other prominent sympathizers.

[12th Doctor]

BTW they were not "northern" soldiers, they were American soldiers.

This is particularly relevant, considering that tens of thousands of southerners chose to fight under the United States flag. When Nathan "Grand Dragon" Forrest's troops captured Fort Pillow in Tennessee, for example, they didn't just murder black American troops- they murdered scores of Appalachian whites who fought alongside them.

Wow, insulting Forrest with a bunch of discredited slanders I see. And the soldiers at Ft Pillow weren't "murdered".

Can you back that up States?  It is my understanding Forrest was absolutely a leader of the fledgling Ku Klux Klan...had pledged himself to "controlling the state's n*ggers" and was present during and permitted the Fort Pillow massacre.

Present... is the key.  There is no evidence that Forrest ordered the massacre, or had any part in it.  In fact, some letters that have surfaced suggest that Forrest tried to order his men to stop, but it was a long and painful war for many people, particularly in the South, and the men were driven to bloodlust revenge.  It was wrong, absolutely.  But looking at it objectively, it is no easier to blame Forrest for Ft. Pillow than it is to blame Henry Werz for Andersonville.

As for Forrest's participation in the Ku Klux Klan, it is an historical fact that Forrest left the organization once it turned to murder, and other forms of violent terrorism against Northern soldiers, carpetbaggers and blacks.

[12th Doctor]

And also, Lewis, even discluding the boarder states Southern sympathy was rampant in the southern parts of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio.  So much so that some people have estimated that there were more people in those areas who supported the South.  And actually, there was some considerable support for the South in Southern New Jersey, believe it or not.

[JSojourner]

BTW they were not "northern" soldiers, they were American soldiers.

This is particularly relevant, considering that tens of thousands of southerners chose to fight under the United States flag. When Nathan "Grand Dragon" Forrest's troops captured Fort Pillow in Tennessee, for example, they didn't just murder black American troops- they murdered scores of Appalachian whites who fought alongside them.

Wow, insulting Forrest with a bunch of discredited slanders I see. And the soldiers at Ft Pillow weren't "murdered".

Can you back that up States?  It is my understanding Forrest was absolutely a leader of the fledgling Ku Klux Klan...had pledged himself to "controlling the state's n*ggers" and was present during and permitted the Fort Pillow massacre.

Present... is the key.  There is no evidence that Forrest ordered the massacre, or had any part in it.  In fact, some letters that have surfaced suggest that Forrest tried to order his men to stop, but it was a long and painful war for many people, particularly in the South, and the men were driven to bloodlust revenge.  It was wrong, absolutely.  But looking at it objectively, it is no easier to blame Forrest for Ft. Pillow than it is to blame Henry Werz for Andersonville.

As for Forrest's participation in the Ku Klux Klan, it is an historical fact that Forrest left the organization once it turned to murder, and other forms of violent terrorism against Northern soldiers, carpetbaggers and blacks.

Thanks for the clarification on Fort Pillow, Soulty.

As to the Klan, I am not 100% convinced that Forrest quit the organization out of any objection to the injustice meted out to blacks.  The very purpose of the KKK from its very inception was to keep "uppity free n*ggers" from running roughshod over the decent white women of Tennessee.

Of course, my hope would be that Forrest did "see the light".  People can and do change.  Henry Watterson was a Confederate leader who actually became quite an outspoken propoent of black suffrage and civil rights in Kentucky. There is an expressway named in his honor in Louisville.

[??????????]

JS, Soulty pretty much said what I would have, he beat me to the punch. Actually Forrest ordered the Klan disbanded and burned everything he had in relation to the Klan. Also, a union court convicted Forrest of guilt for war crimes at Ft. Pillow, certainly an unbiased body.

[??????????]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Pillow#Massacre

[big bad fab]

Mister BRTD,

Do you have any respect for German soldiers (I've written "soldiers", not anything else) during WW2 ?
For at least one of them ?

[minionofmidas]

And also, Lewis, even discluding the boarder states Southern sympathy was rampant in the southern parts of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio.  So much so that some people have estimated that there were more people in those areas who supported the South.  And actually, there was some considerable support for the South in Southern New Jersey, believe it or not.

It existed there among a section of the population. That's about it. (Much larger sections in the same places - you forgot to list the far west, btw) sympathized with the Southern "redeemers" in the era soon after, of course.) The reverse statement holds virtually everywhere in the South - even among the Whites.
Take the Blacks into account, and Unionists were a majority of the Confederacy's population and of almost every state in it, of course.

There will many in the North who expressed Southern sympathies

Not nearly as many as the other way round... unless we're using a very expansive definition of the "North" (including all of Eastern Tennessee, say - almost throughout a Union held territory with a Unionist majority population. But certainly not "northern".)

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Uh, no.

Ummm... yes, actually, alot of newspaper editors were thrown in prison.

I know that. Read what you originally wrote, please. You claimed that "most people in the North who expressed Southern sympathies were thrown in prison", a statement that is nothing if not ludicrous - especially if we were to also lend credence to your (not to mention, most early 20th and late 19th century Conservative historians) inflated claims of the extent of Southern sympathizing in the North.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Mister BRTD,

Do you have any respect for German soldiers (I've written "soldiers", not anything else) during WW2 ?
For at least one of them ?

Well von Stauffenberg and his conspirators would certainly apply, so yes.

[big bad fab]

Mister BRTD,

Do you have any respect for German soldiers (I've written "soldiers", not anything else) during WW2 ?
For at least one of them ?

Well von Stauffenberg and his conspirators would certainly apply, so yes.

And so, absolutely no Confederate would apply ??

Do you have any respect for a man who became a forced soldier and was obliged to fight against Russians harshly ?
He's also a human being, he's not a Nazi.

So, do you think there was absolutely no human being, deserving some respect, among Confederates ??

As we say in French, this topic's question is "d'une insondable connerie", that's what I wanted to say.