What lead you guys...

[Alcon]

My belief has no effect on whether God exists, however he, she, it, or they are defined.  I just know that without God, I find few reasons for self-awareness to be an advantage.

Right...but that does not affect the probability of God existing in any way; it does not make the belief rational.

The idea that those can be sufficient in and of themselves is excessively solipsistic to me.  It effectively makes the maximum lifespan of the universe 120 years, less for most people.  They certainly are necessary, but not sufficient.

...If I were framing existence around myself, which like Earth said is not required by anything I say.  For an approachable example, Google "ignosticism" if you're not already familiar with it.  Beyond that, I completely agree with everything that Earth (and Tonberry) said.  I personally find the "worldly purpose" of life much more satisfying, especially in absence of a rational reason I see to believe there is external, objective purpose.  But I'll concede that there is certainly draw and comfort in the latter.  I find the idea that an earthly definition is akin to nihilism...odd.  You must really hate movies.

[Alcon]

Unlike jmfcst, the idea of entering Biblical study under the assumption that the Bible is true seems circular and absurd to me.  

But that's not what my testimony states.  rather I was basically an unbeliever when I entered that bible study.  I simply entered the bible study to determine whether or not my girlfriend's church (which even I could tell was very different than mainstream Christianity) was actually following the bible as they claimed to be.

The only assumption I made was that the only way for me to know whether or not they were following the bible was for me to examine their beliefs against the bible.

My attitude was, "It is time!".  That the moment had come in my life to seek truth.  So, I was actually looking for God, but I had no expectations and no idea what I was in for.

...

But that night in my apartment was different, God was opening my eyes but I didn’t know it yet.  (I only had a HUGE King James bible, one of those hardback types that is like 10” x 15” and four inches thick, they were given these away about four years earlier at a Baptist church I attended for one or two services when I was dating a Baptist girl).  That night I started with the book of Galatians and it just started to click, I could see the writer attempting to make one single simple point by addressing the topic from many different angles and using many different examples, but the point of each example was the same, and the point of the book of Galatians repudiated my girlfriend’s church which had mixed the Law of Moses into their doctrine.

I don’t know how much time reading it took me to come to that conclusion, probably only an hour. I don’t think I even made it into the 4th chapter of Galatians.  (Maybe I did, I don’t remember ).   But once it was clear what Galatians was repeatedly saying, I realized the deception wasn’t being waged for no purpose, that there was something of value at stake to make the deception worthwhile.  And God enabled me to sense the battle going on the spiritual realm.  

Besides "I was looking for God when I picked up the Bible," your testimonial doesn't really mentioned what (besides emotion and desire to find God) convinced you that the Bible is true and, say, the Quran isn't.

The rest is interesting personal narrative, but none of it really addresses the question.  Although if your conversion was honestly just an emotional reaction or a spiritual "putting together of the pieces," that's fine, but you haven't really said.  Or maybe we just don't speak the same language on this.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Besides "I was looking for God when I picked up the Bible," your testimonial doesn't really mentioned what (besides emotion and desire to find God) convinced you that the Bible is true and, say, the Quran isn't.

Well, Alcon, would it had made more sense to pick up a Koran for comparison when my girlfriend's church was claiming to follow the Bible?  Since they were claiming to follow to bible, since that is what they claimed was their measuring rod, that is what I picked to measure them by.

I had previously dated other religions, even an Indian Hindu (sp?).

I became convinced the bible was true when I received the Holy Spirit, and through that Spirit revealed many things to me that I had yet to read in the bible.  All doubt in the bible completely melted away.  IF it is possible to stand in the presence of God and still doubt his word, I surely don't know how.

---

The rest is interesting personal narrative, but none of it really addresses the question.  Although if your conversion was honestly just an emotional reaction or a spiritual "putting together of the pieces," that's fine, but you haven't really said.  Or maybe we just don't speak the same language on this.

I don't understand this question.

[Alcon]

I didn't ask you what caused you to conclude that your girlfriend's church wasn't following the Bible.  It was this I'm going for:

I became convinced the bible was true when I received the Holy Spirit, and through that Spirit revealed many things to me that I had yet to read in the bible.  All doubt in the bible completely melted away.  IF it is possible to stand in the presence of God and still doubt his word, I surely don't know how.

So, basically, you claim that you were given information about the Bible by God before you'd read it.  OK, that's an answer to the question.

(The second portion you quoted wasn't a question, so I don't know what you mean by not understanding the question.)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

My own innate prejudices whenever they come from and a complete hatred for anyone who thinks they know what they are talking about when they don't. Including myself, I used to be the most self-righteous middle class liberal Atheist one can imagine.

I remember telling a friend when I was six years old that God could not possibly exist. The bible was too much of a child story to me for it to strike me as true. Oscar Wilde was a better writer than those guys. I could believe The Sleeping Giant but The Book of Genesis? Nah.

As for the Bible, the Jesus story really needed a good third act. If the bible was written today Jesus after the resurrection would come back and take horrible revenge on his cruxifiers. Instead he goes to some nondescripit place and hangs out with his father, how lame is that?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I became convinced the bible was true when I received the Holy Spirit, and through that Spirit revealed many things to me that I had yet to read in the bible.  All doubt in the bible completely melted away.  IF it is possible to stand in the presence of God and still doubt his word, I surely don't know how.

So, basically, you claim that you were given information about the Bible by God before you'd read it.  OK, that's an answer to the question.

not exactly...

I read a very small part of bible - 2.5 to 3.5 chapters>>>God opened my eyes to believe>>>>I believed and received the Holy Spirit>>>God gave me many experiences/revelations I had no prior knowledge of>>>>through later reading, I would find examples of those exact same experiences in the bible along with the bible's explanation of them.

Even the fact that those filled with the Holy Spirit can be given experiences and knowledge they have not previously learned is also prophesied:

Isa 52:14 14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him —
       his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
       and his form marred beyond human likeness—
 15 so will he sprinkle many nations,
       and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
       For what they were not told, they will see,
       and what they have not heard, they will understand.

[Coburn In 2012]

JMFCST,

I like your story it is intense and very deep.  I am glad you got to this point because it has obviously made you a better person. Your Christian beleif is not just words but actions and a living style.

But I don't get something.   Can you tell me what you mean by recieving the Holy Spirit?  Is it the same as being born again?  The church I am now at talks alot about recieving the holy Spirit and sometimes they call it baptism and sometimes they call it the Holy Ghost.  I don't understand it very much and some times it is scarey because people go up to the front of the church and some odd things happen like dancing and talking in tounges and that , I just don't get it but I want to .

i am liking this church very much because they are super freindly and they preach values.  We use to go to a Methodist church on Easter and Xmas and maybe a couple times a year also that was pretty bad.  The pastor talked about love all the time which is nice but never talked about other things the bible Taught.  They actually had materials in the lobby from the United Nations!  My folks were with us and thot they would blow a gasket.  I mean what's up with that?

Anyway this church has awesome music.  None of the dumb boring funeral music songs and the pastor preaches about morals and changing the country for the better (and ourselves toO)
I just don't get the other stuff.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Coburn,

I have not spoken in tongues, though I know many who do and have.  And I do believe it still happens even in our day.  But not everyone receives the same gifts.

Holy Spirit = Holy Ghost

baptism in water = baptism in water.  It’s a human act.  A human response pledging a good conscience towards God, identifying with the death and resurrection of Jesus.

having your life transformed = the overall concept of baptism

receiving the Holy Spirit = born again = baptism of the Holy Spirit = baptism by fire. 

Basically, when you receive the Holy Spirit, you become "spirit possessed" (for lack of a better description) by the person of Jesus Christ, except that it doesn't take control of your actions, rather you have control over it, in that you can choose to obey it or not.   Jesus comes to live in your heart.  You become the temple of the Holy Spirit, which replaced the physical Temple in Jerusalem.   It transfers your citizenship from this world and gives you citizenship in Heaven.  It identifies you with Jesus Christ.  It condemns your old life and your flesh, and gives you a new life.

But, I can't give anyone a 12 step plan of how to receive the Holy Spirit.  It is a gift of God which can only be received by faith.  And faith itself is a gift of God.

The purpose of the fire is to consume your flesh so that you can take control of the desires of your flesh and offer your bodies to God as a spiritual sacrifice.  You basically become a living sacrifice whose body has already been consumed by fire.  That was the whole symbolism of the burnt offerings preformed in the old testament.

The tabernacle worship and arrangement basically symbolizes being born again.  I’m a little rusty to its meaning, but I think this is how it goes:  First, the sacrifice is killed (Jesus Christ), and the body of the sacrifice is then burned with fire (symbolizing being baptized by the spirit and the putting away of your flesh), then the priest (symbolizing the believer becoming a priest, which every spirit filled believer is) washes in the laver (symbolizing water baptism), then he is able to enter into the Holy of Holies (symbolizing reception of the Holy Spirit) and eat the bread (symbolizing being able to consume the word of God) ,with the incense burning (symbolize prayer and praise going up to God), and basking in the light of the candle stick (the truth of God).

Now the priest is also representative of Jesus, but, basically, through receiving Christ, you are able to enter into the presence of God (in the Holy of Holies) without dropping dead due to your sins, since your sins are now covered in the blood of Christ.

The intense feeling of being honored in front of all creation, both physical and spiritual, is also explained:

Ephesians 2:5 “God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus”

[Coburn In 2012]

Thanks.  that is amazing and gives me much to think about.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

Thanks.  that is amazing and gives me much to think about.

^^^^ agreed. just fascinating.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Thanks.  that is amazing and gives me much to think about.

Of course, I left off the main purpose of receiving the Holy Spirit.  It is to expose (circumcise) your heart to God, so that you can serve one another in love. That was forshadowed in physical circumcision of the Old Testament - removing the flesh in order to expose what lies underneath.   And, instead of being inclined toward self-gratification, your inclined towards "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." (Gal 5:23)

[Coburn In 2012]

Physical manifestations of religious beliefs are insane.  It disturbs me that the admission of the experience of these things is accepted as not only within reason but as extraordinary and commendable.  Truly freaky, like Jesus Camp.

bigot

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

Physical manifestations of religious beliefs are insane.  It disturbs me that the admission of the experience of these things is accepted as not only within reason but as extraordinary and commendable.  Truly freaky, like Jesus Camp.

bigot

oh be quiet.
What do people do at those camps?

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

Physical manifestations of religious beliefs are insane.  It disturbs me that the admission of the experience of these things is accepted as not only within reason but as extraordinary and commendable.  Truly freaky, like Jesus Camp.

bigot

oh be quiet.
What do people do at those camps?

Intense brainwashing, like military prison.

Good one, Coburn.  Christians are victims these days, aren't they?  The best way to handle an intellectual challenge is to call it a name and dismiss it.  Way to think independently.  Jesus Camp must have been a really fulfilling experience.

did you go to one?

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

did you go to one?

Did I go to Jesus Camp?  Of course not.  Why?

well how would you know what they do then?

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

did you go to one?

Did I go to Jesus Camp?  Of course not.  Why?

well how would you know what they do then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

oh. that is creepy.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

did you go to one?

Did I go to Jesus Camp?  Of course not.  Why?

well how would you know what they do then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

oh. that is creepy.

and it's NOTHING like my testimony

[Tonberry]

did you go to one?

Did I go to Jesus Camp?  Of course not.  Why?

well how would you know what they do then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

oh. that is creepy.

and it's NOTHING like my testimony

Very true. While Jesus Camp is truly terrifying, it's not a good example of American Christianity. That particular camp is way out there.

[Magic 8-Ball]

This was my response to the thread about what ministers can do to keep people in pews:

Actually, many churches do precisely what you said.  They just mix it heavily with proselytizing.

The thing that pushed me away from Christianity is the insistence that the Earth is somewhere between six and twelve thousand years old, and macro evolution is a crock.  I remember being about 15 or so and arguing with my Youth Minister's wife that Genesis was a metaphor used to bond the Jews together and that the Big Bang and evolution were instruments of an omnipotent god who knew how his project would turn out.  That seems more all-powerful and glorious than a deity who had to constantly go back and tinker with his creation.  I was literally shouted down by her and those around us.

It's this instance that science must be wrong, and that creationism - despite its failure to qualify as science - is absolutely correct and infallible and must be taught in schools, that frustrated me to the point where I left Christianity.

I think that a lot of people who transitioned from Christianity to Atheism/Agnosticism had similar experiences.  Were ministers to drop this aspect, or at least be open to evolution as a possibility of God's glory, I imagine that "No religion" wouldn't grow so quickly in Pew Research's surveys.

The argument with my Youth Minister's wife set me on my path of agnosticism.  After awhile, I came to the point where I could not logically prove or disprove the existence of God.  I suppose the closest I can come to faith is to reiterate Einstein's belief in Spinoza's god, but even that is a little much for my tastes.

DC_united_16, if you are interested in studying religion, specifically Christianity, I would recommend reading some of the works that John Polkinghorne has published.  In addition to being an Anglican Priest, he is an astrophysicist, and isn't a fundamentalist.  I think he gives some of the most rational reasons for belief in God.  Like I said above, I'm not a Christian, so don't interpret this as proselytizing. 

Good luck with whatever you choose.

[Tonberry]

did you go to one?

Did I go to Jesus Camp?  Of course not.  Why?

well how would you know what they do then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

oh. that is creepy.

and it's NOTHING like my testimony

Very true. While Jesus Camp is truly terrifying, it's not a good example of American Christianity. That particular camp is way out there.

And being supposedly physically affected by your beliefs is...normal?

I didn't say that at all. I personally find it irrational. I wouldn't call it insane, because that's harsh and it's technically possible. Besides, such claims are usually harmless.

I'm mostly concerned with indoctrination.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

And being supposedly physically affected by your beliefs is...normal?

not only is it common, it is expected.

Acts 19:1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

And being supposedly physically affected by your beliefs is...normal?

not only is it common, it is expected.

Acts 19:1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

Which leads me back to my original point.  It is disturbing that this kind of thing not only flies without question, it's expected of people.  Not that that quote even says anything about physical manifestations of these beliefs.  The people you see speaking in tongues are deeply disturbing as well.  These are things people we label insane do yet as long as it is done in the name of the Lord it's totally normal.  It's all monkey see, monkey do and it's scary.

not sure what you are calling "physical manifestations" - the receiving of the Holy Spirit or the gift of tongues, but BOTH were present in that passage:

Acts 19:2They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
 3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
      "John's baptism," they replied.

 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

[Eraserhead]

I was pretty skeptical when I was a kid in CCD and once I found out that Santa Claus was bogus, I figured out that God had nothing to do with reality either. Later on, I found out that my father didn't believe and that neither of my grandfathers believed either. My mother basically abandoned any beliefs that she might have had over the years too, so there isn't much of a religious trip going on around here.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

That quote references it, but regardless it's insanity and a bad case of monkey-see monkey-do.

But, you're forgetting my testimony - that I was NOT aware of any of that before it happened to me.  I was so unaware of it, that I pondered that night if I were the only one in the world.  (So, your "monkey-see monkey-do" argument doesn't hold water!!!)  But what I would find out within a week is that all the things made known to me that night were already written about thousands of years ago!  The bible perfectly described and explained it.  Sometimes, the wording used was verbatim to how I described it:

Jer 20:9 "His word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones."

Lam 1:13 "From on high he sent fire, sent it down into my bones"

Luke 3:16 (John the Baptist speaking of Jesus) "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

It's really irrelevant what the bible says about it since I consider that equally as unlikely as your story

That is NOT what you said.  You said it was a case of "monkey-see-monkey-do."… I can have the forum moderator read your comments back to you if you'd like...  You said, "monkey-see-monkey-do."  I said, "I was NOT aware of any of that before it happened to me." And now you contend that "it's really irrelevant what the bible says"?!

Can you explain that?

If it really is a case of "monkey-see-monkey-do,” then why was there the need for you to ignore the bible?  Why did you see a need to change from “a case of monkey-see-monkey-do” to “it's really irrelevant what the bible says“? 

Can you explain your contradictory opinions?

The truth is there was no "monkey-see-monkey-do”, isn’t that correct?  And when it became clear I had not read those portions of the bible, you cut your "monkey-see-monkey-do” theory loose.  You doctored your opinion and claimed "it's really irrelevant what the bible says".

What happened to me alone in my apartment the moment I believed was exactly, down to each explicit detail, what the bible prophesied God would do for believers.  And you really can not speak intelligently on any of these matters.  You can't handle the truth.  Isn’t that right, fezzyfestoon?!