Parliamentary Bicameralism (Discussion Open)

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I oppose this proposal.

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As it stands, Smid is correct in that delegates did not vote for the Bicameral Nonparliamentary model.

I'm not saying to shut down this proposal, before you jump on my statement aggressively like you did on Smid's.

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So in effect the lower house is a series of committees with no power and most of the time only two of them will get to have any say on a bill. It would only meet, in full if two committee members split. We would be halfing the number of Senate members and abolishing regional government for a committee?

I cannot see, with the greatest of respect why I would wish to replace the current system with this one. Why should a lower house 'wait' for legislation? Both upper and lower houses should be able to propose legislation.

On that note,

Nay.

I strongly agree with Afleitch's opposition, in this post and in other posts.

I don't like that this is, in effect, a slightly more democratic French Second Empire. I don't think that's what Atlasia needs.

I fail to see the point of a tiny upper house that only proposes stuff. That chamber would effectively become a sleeping chamber. Then I fail to see the point of a lower house that can't propose legislation and is reduced to a game of parliamentary committees with a effectively irrelevant Prime Minister.

I see this being advertised as a "compromise" to universalists. Apart from a much altered and much weaker model of bicameralism, I fail to see how this is a compromise to universalists.

I guess I'll vote Aye for discussions' sake, but I strongly doubt that this can be changed enough to be remotely acceptable to me.

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I'm drifting more and more to the idea that a 'compromise' is impossible. Most Universalists will not compromise to a system with Universalism, and many of the rest of us won't compromise to a system that has Universalism.

As I've said today, I am more than willing to compromise. But I don't feel this is a compromise. This scenario, as it stands now, has a ton of problems which have been mentioned. I cannot and will not support a powerless lower house, a upper house which will probably be a sleeping chamber and a Prime Minister that has little power. If those issues can be fixed, that requires lots of work from both sides, then this could be remotely acceptable. But you need to fix a whole lot of things, but I'm willing to continue consideration of this plan if changed to become more parliamentary, larger and better.

Here is my plan to make this more acceptable:

A bicameral system, like most European bicameral systems have.
5 or 10 member Senate. 5 could be acceptable. The Senate can propose legislation, and must approve laws passed by the lower house for them to come into effect.
15 member House. The House can propose legislation. It must approve laws introduced in the Senate. Afleitch effectively took my thoughts in his preceding post. I entirely agree with him, no questions asked.
A Prime Minister that is elected, preferably in a way which I proposed for the universal system. This elected Prime Minister should then present his governments' agenda and cabinet and the House will be able to vote confidence.
The Prime Minister names his cabinet from wherever he wants. PiT's proposed committees could become these cabinet ministries, at best. Alternatively, merge a few of them into one to have a limited number to match the limited membership of Atlasia.
I still want parliamentary responsibility. And the opportunity for any house to vote a NCM at any time, which should then be approved by the other house.

If something along the lines of my and Afleitch's proposal could be accepted by the opponents of universalism, I feel that we have at our hands the key to a perfect compromise!

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I second Hashemites proposals.

As I've touched on before, we need to look at what sort of people we have in Atlasia. I think the lower house should be the arena for career politicians, party politics and promises, where in order to be re-elected the governing party has to propose legislation some good some bad. The Senate should be proposing legislation but also looking at how much it costs, whether it's constitutional what international effect it has etc and looking at lower house legislation in a similar fashion. That reflects how people are in this game - I for one would be more at home in the Senate with a calculator than in the House withpushing through legislation and making sure my party get's elected. Other posters would love that side of things however.

The Senate should be, even though it's an archaic term and applied to the Canadian Senate, a chamber of sober second thought. I fully agree with you.

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Ok, if everyone can agree on a summation of what you're all talking about, should I remove the current motion and propose this compromise that is being discussed?

Tell me if I have it right so far:
Small Senate (5ish) with power to originate amend legislation
Relatively large Parliament (15ish) with power to originate legislation
PM elected by both houses, presents agenda, followed by NC vote
PM appoints Cabinet members (either office holders or not)
Possible committees in the Parliament, with chairmen and some form of markup?
President with power to dissolve Parliament, but not Senate (I threw this in. It sorta gives the Senate that more regal feel as well)

Would you all compromise with something like that? If I get some sort of consensus of agreement I will drop the current motion and get this up for a vote.

I support this. Some small minute details and quibbles to fix, but I agree with the gist.

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Aye.

Though I'd rather get rid of the President or have him with reduced powers. Whatever. Doesn't really matter.

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Nope

Do you reject changing this into something different from the original intent or you reject outright the universalist/anti-universalist compromise?

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Nope

Do you reject changing this into something different from the original intent or you reject outright the universalist/anti-universalist compromise?

Both; the so-called "compromise" is ridiculous.  It's not universalist at all.

If we include universalism in said compromise, then it's not a compromise anymore in that it will not appeal to non-universalists. We need to unite, find common ground and flesh out a compromise that both sides can accept. There's been a clear division between both sides that is very marked. With the idea of universalism losing popular support, a strong division into two sides, and the general need to get something done here, people need to be able to compromise instead of blocking everything and anything.

Universalists must make compromises, but non-universalists must also make compromises. This is just a general intent at a compromise. No details have been fleshed out. I urge you to vote Aye to not shut down all debate, even if you may not agree with the idea as it stands now.

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There also happens to already be a Universalism proposal, so that can be developed at the same time as this compromise. But universalism and absolute non-universalism shouldn't be the only options on the table. Can't hurt to have a compromise going as well.

Exactly!

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The attitude of many delegates and the ConCon in general towards this proposal (which isn't even final yet, for the love of God) is extremely disappointing.

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I don't see how there can exist a category that's "kind of universalist".

It's more universal than the other non-universalism.

You can have a universalism proposal, but no reason to block a compromise proposal from being discussed as well.

That attitude is precisely why I'm voting no; as the proposal is one of "wishy-washy moderatism", it will naturally be selected in the end, no matter the other proposals.  I'm not saying it isn't necessarily meritorious... but the thought that it would pass based simply on its merits rather than its "compromise" status is laughable.

Nobody is preventing discussion of pure universalism and unicameral non-universalism from continuing, quite the contrary. I'm just attempting to open a sort of idea to work out a deal between the two factions which are very, very divided in support of either one or the other. This is a vote to continue debate on the compromise model, not a final vote! It seems as if some people simply can't understand that.

I don't like the attitude of inevitability as an excuse either. Because that simply isn't true.

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I'll post more later after I finish an History IA on Weimar. But I want a true bicameral system, with a up-down movement for legislation so that it is passed by both houses and so that both houses can vote/amend/propose stuff.

I want a PM elected by either LH or both houses, optimally in a way similar to the way I proposed in the universalist system.

I want the PM to name cabinet and agenda, then the LH votes confidence in his government and it gets down to business. I'm not sure about committees.

Not sure about the need for a President, but I wouldn't oppose it. Have him elected by the people but a ceremonial role. Similar to the President of Macedonia or Slovakia. Elected directly, but limited role. Even more limited in that he doesn't name the PM. Maybe just have him get a veto (that can be override by legislature), name military/ambassadors, and dissolve LH but not UH.

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Nay ftr

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Fixed regional boundaries.
Regions choose whatever gov't they want, Assembly or lack thereof.

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1. Any person who registered as a citizen of Atlasia, has more then two hundred posts and doesn't hold any other office in Atlasia shall eligible to run for a Senate Seat in Atlasia.

?!? You can't even run if you hold another office? Jesus Christ.

1. Any person who is registered as a citizen of Atlasia, has more then one hundred posts and does not hold a fedural or Head of Region office shall be eligible to run for a House Seat in Atlasia.

See above.

3.  The House shall elect a Speaker of the House who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House and managing every day business.
   i. The SoH must be a member of the party who has the most members in the House.

I don't see why a guy that only chairs debate and does day to day procedural stuff should be a partisan position.

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That is great, but are we going to have a VP under this plan?

I imagine so. It seems weird to have a President without a VP. It also extends a sort of check by the President. We could also leave the VP-Senate relationship to the PM, but I would like someone independent of the Senate to have this power. The PM will have his own stuff.

What would be the use of a President, a Vice President, and Prime Minister? The PM is the head of government, the President will probably end up ceremonial, but the VP? Is it really wise to have that many roles in government?

I'll oppose any plan for this setup VP. If you want a VP, vote for presidential parliamentarian.

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That is great, but are we going to have a VP under this plan?

I imagine so. It seems weird to have a President without a VP. It also extends a sort of check by the President. We could also leave the VP-Senate relationship to the PM, but I would like someone independent of the Senate to have this power. The PM will have his own stuff.

What would be the use of a President, a Vice President, and Prime Minister? The PM is the head of government, the President will probably end up ceremonial, but the VP? Is it really wise to have that many roles in government?

I'll oppose any plan for this setup VP. If you want a VP, vote for presidential parliamentarian.

So what is your proposal for President of the Senate? Should we use the Dean, which would be an already elected member?

A President of the Senate elected from the ranks of the Senate that holds that post and no other. Like the President of the French Senate.

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Article 2: The Government

Section 1.
1. The head of government of the Republic of Atlasia shall be a Prime Minister.
2. The Government shall consist of the Prime Minister and Ministers.

Section 2: Election of the Prime Minister
1. The Prime Minister shall be elected by the membership of the (Lower House/Upper House/joint sitting of Congress) after every election to the legislature or after a government has fallen.
2. No Person shall be eligible to become a candidate for the office of Prime Minister who has not attained two hundred (or 150) or more posts, is not a member of Congress, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent.
3. In order to be a candidate, a person must be endorsed by 3 other (MPs only/Senators only/both).
4. The body electing the Prime Minister casts their votes in a public thread.
5. If a candidate has received half plus one of the votes cast, he/she is deemed elected.
6. If no candidate has received half plus one of the votes cast in the first round of voting, the lowest-placed candidate for Prime Minister is eliminated before a second round of voting is held.
7. The conditions in Clause 5 continue until a candidate has received half plus one of the votes cast, at which time he/she is deemed elected.
8. Upon the election of a Prime Minister, the Prime Minister-elect, in a speech to the (Lower House/Upper House/joint sitting of Congress) presents his government's agenda for the parliamentary term.
9. Upon conclusion of this speech, the members of the (Lower House/Upper House/joint sitting of Congress) vote in a confidence vote to the Prime Minister and his agenda, which requires half plus one of all votes cast to pass.

Section 3: The Cabinet
1. Upon a favourable response from the (Lower House/Upper House/joint sitting of Congress) in the confidence vote outlined in Section 1, Clause 8, the Prime Minister names his cabinet [opt: from the ranks of his coalition].
2. No Person shall be eligible to become a cabinet official who has not attained two hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent.
3. A Member of Government shall hold no other paid position in a profession, business or on the executive board of a corporation.
4. The cabinet posts will be determined in an organic law following the adoption of this Constitution.
5. The Government is responsible to Congress. Any cabinet member may ask to address the legislature at any time.
6. The Prime Minister may dismiss any Minister at his discretion.
7. A Member of Government may not engage in any activity the nature whereof contradicts the performance of his office.

Section 4: Motion of No-Confidence
1. A Member of Congress may move a motion of no-confidence in the sitting government.
[optional: 2. No Motions of No-Confidence shall be moved during any Federal Election or one week before the end of the Congress' term.]
2. The Member of Congress or Caucus moving the said motion shall have the right to explain his decision before members of the (LH/UH/Both).
3. The Prime Minister or a Person delegated by the Prime Minister shall have the right to oppose the said motion in a speech before members of the (LH/UH/Both).
4. When the conditions set out in Clauses 2 and 3 have been met, the members of the (LH/UH/Both) shall vote for, against, or abstain the Motion of No-Confidence.
5. A Motion of No-Confidence requires the approval of half plus one of all attending voting members.
6. If the (LH/UH/Both) vote a Motion of No-Confidence in the Government, the Government and the Prime Minister shall resign within twenty-four hours.
7. Upon resignation of the Prime Minister, the (LH/UH/Both) shall elect a Prime Minister from the conditions set out in Article

Article 3: The President

Section 1:
1. The head of state of the Republic of Atlasia shall be a President.

Section 2: Election of the President
1. The President shall be elected by the citizens of the Republic of Atlasia in direct elections by secret ballot for a four-month term. The right to elect the President have the citizens who are eligible to vote in election to the Congress.
2. No person shall be President who has not attained 250 or more posts, and is not a registered voter.

Section 3: Powers of the President (largely stolen from the Slovak Constitution)
1. The President shall represent Atlasia in international relations, negotiate and ratify international agreements; he can delegate the power to the Government or, with the consent of the Government, to individual members of the Government to negotiate those international agreements.
2. The President shall sign and veto laws. His veto may be overturned as described in Article 1, Section 3, Clause 2.
3. The President shall appoint justices to the Supreme Court, with the approve of the (LH/UH/both).
4. The President shall award decorations and honors, unless another authority has been delegated by him to do so.
5. The President shall grant pardons and amnesty, mitigate sentences imposed by criminal courts.
6. The President shall be the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces.
7. The President shall declare a state of emergency by means of a constitutional statute;
8. The President shall announce referendums and Constitutional Conventions.


I don't have the sophisticated constitutional lingo, so feel free to add that in as long as you don't stray from my original intent.

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Article 2: The Government

Section 1.
1. The head of government of the Republic of Atlasia shall be a Prime Minister.
2. The Government shall consist of the Prime Minister and Ministers.

Section 2: Election of the Prime Minister
1. The Prime Minister shall be elected by the membership of the (Lower House/Upper House/joint sitting of Congress) after every election to the legislature or after a government has fallen.
2. No Person shall be eligible to become a candidate for the office of Prime Minister who has not attained two hundred (or 150) or more posts, is not a member of Congress, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent.
3. In order to be a candidate, a person must be endorsed by 3 other (MPs only/Senators only/both).
4. The body electing the Prime Minister casts their votes in a public thread.
5. If a candidate has received half plus one of the votes cast, he/she is deemed elected.
6. If no candidate has received half plus one of the votes cast in the first round of voting, the lowest-placed candidate for Prime Minister is eliminated before a second round of voting is held.
7. The conditions in Clause 5 continue until a candidate has received half plus one of the votes cast, at which time he/she is deemed elected.
8. Upon the election of a Prime Minister, the Prime Minister-elect, in a speech to the (Lower House/Upper House/joint sitting of Congress) presents his government's agenda for the parliamentary term.
9. Upon conclusion of this speech, the members of the (Lower House/Upper House/joint sitting of Congress) vote in a confidence vote to the Prime Minister and his agenda, which requires half plus one of all votes cast to pass.

Section 3: The Cabinet
1. Upon a favourable response from the (Lower House/Upper House/joint sitting of Congress) in the confidence vote outlined in Section 1, Clause 8, the Prime Minister names his cabinet [opt: from the ranks of his coalition].
2. No Person shall be eligible to become a cabinet official who has not attained two hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent.
3. A Member of Government shall hold no other paid position in a profession, business or on the executive board of a corporation.
4. The cabinet posts will be determined in an organic law following the adoption of this Constitution.
5. The Government is responsible to Congress. Any cabinet member may ask to address the legislature at any time.
6. The Prime Minister may dismiss any Minister at his discretion.
7. A Member of Government may not engage in any activity the nature whereof contradicts the performance of his office.

Section 4: Motion of No-Confidence
1. A Member of Congress may move a motion of no-confidence in the sitting government.
[optional: 2. No Motions of No-Confidence shall be moved during any Federal Election or one week before the end of the Congress' term.]
2. The Member of Congress or Caucus moving the said motion shall have the right to explain his decision before members of the (LH/UH/Both).
3. The Prime Minister or a Person delegated by the Prime Minister shall have the right to oppose the said motion in a speech before members of the (LH/UH/Both).
4. When the conditions set out in Clauses 2 and 3 have been met, the members of the (LH/UH/Both) shall vote for, against, or abstain the Motion of No-Confidence.
5. A Motion of No-Confidence requires the approval of half plus one of all attending voting members.
6. If the (LH/UH/Both) vote a Motion of No-Confidence in the Government, the Government and the Prime Minister shall resign within twenty-four hours.
7. Upon resignation of the Prime Minister, the (LH/UH/Both) shall elect a Prime Minister from the conditions set out in Article

Article 3: The President

Section 1:
1. The head of state of the Republic of Atlasia shall be a President.

Section 2: Election of the President
1. The President shall be elected by the citizens of the Republic of Atlasia in direct elections by secret ballot for a four-month term. The right to elect the President have the citizens who are eligible to vote in election to the Congress.
2. No person shall be President who has not attained 250 or more posts, and is not a registered voter.

Section 3: Powers of the President (largely stolen from the Slovak Constitution)
1. The President shall represent Atlasia in international relations, negotiate and ratify international agreements; he can delegate the power to the Government or, with the consent of the Government, to individual members of the Government to negotiate those international agreements.
2. The President shall sign and veto laws. His veto may be overturned as described in Article 1, Section 3, Clause 2.
3. The President shall appoint justices to the Supreme Court, with the approve of the (LH/UH/both).
4. The President shall award decorations and honors, unless another authority has been delegated by him to do so.
5. The President shall grant pardons and amnesty, mitigate sentences imposed by criminal courts.
6. The President shall be the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces.
7. The President shall declare a state of emergency by means of a constitutional statute;
8. The President shall announce referendums and Constitutional Conventions.


I don't have the sophisticated constitutional lingo, so feel free to add that in as long as you don't stray from my original intent.

The only thing I don't like is the secret ballot. I think it would take away the fun in elections.

Thanks for noticing. Secret ballot was a typo, I just copied that stuff from the current constitution, and it looks like it read "secret ballot" for some reason. Sorry for the confusion, I'm no fan of secret ballot either!

I would like to also give the President his own legislation slot and the power to dismiss the Parliament every so often. Perhaps once per term. He also needs to be impeachable and have term limits (of course, I know many disagree with that last one).

I have no qualms with presidential term limits (emphasis on presidential) and impeachment. If we give the Prez dissolution powers, we need to decide if it dissolves the whole Congress or just one house. I recommend that these dissolution powers be significantly guided and scripted to occur only in special circumstances (ministerial crises).

Since this is a parliamentary regime we're proposing, slots for legislation need to be given in priority to the government parties, the opposition, and a few for PMBs. Whatever is left can be given to the Prez.

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Revised.

Article 3: The President

Section 1:
1. The head of state of the Republic of Atlasia shall be a President.

Section 2: Election of the President
1. The President shall be elected by the citizens of the Republic of Atlasia in direct elections by public vote for a four-month term. The right to elect the President have the citizens who are eligible to vote in election to the Congress.
2. No person shall be President who has not attained 250 or more posts, and is not a registered voter.

Section 3: Powers of the President (largely stolen from the Slovak Constitution)
1. The President shall represent Atlasia in international relations, negotiate and ratify international agreements; he can delegate the power to the Government or, with the consent of the Government, to individual members of the Government to negotiate those international agreements.
2. The President shall sign and veto laws. His veto may be overturned as described in Article 1, Section 3, Clause 2.
3. The President shall appoint justices to the Supreme Court, with the approve of the (LH/UH/both).
4. The President shall award decorations and honors, unless another authority has been delegated by him to do so.
5. The President shall grant pardons and amnesty, mitigate sentences imposed by criminal courts.
6. The President shall be the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces.
7. The President shall declare a state of emergency by means of a constitutional statute;
8. The President shall announce referendums and Constitutional Conventions.

Section 4: Vacancy
1. If the Presidency shall ever fall vacant, the President of the Senate shall become President and new elections for President will be held within one month. If the Presidency of the Senate is also vacant, then the Speaker of the House shall become President and new elections for President will be held within one month.

I think stuff on impeachment are better under Article I (Legislature).

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Aye, but an article for impeachment of the President needs to be put in either Article 1 or 3.

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Article 1: The Congress of Atlasia

Section 1: Formation of the Senate
1. The Senate shall be composed of five Senators elected by a popular vote of the citizens of Atlasia, each with a term of six months.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for Senate who has not attained two hundred or more posts. A Senator may not hold any other public office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the President and who shall manage the everyday business of the Senate.
4. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.

Section 2: Formation of the House
1. The House of Representatives, herein referred to as House, shall be made up of sixteen Representatives, each with a term of three months.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for the House who has not attained one hundred or more posts. A Representative may not hold any other federal or executive office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The House shall elect a Speaker of the House who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House and for managing every day business.

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Congress, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote in each respective chamber. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the PPT, Speaker, and sponsors of the Bill or Resolution from each chamber for conference, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of a chamber. Upon resolution of any differences between the separate versions of legislation, the Bill or Resolution shall be returned to both chambers for approval. If passed by both chambers separately, the revised Bill or Resolution shall then be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if each chamber shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Congress by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.

Section 4: Elections to Congress
1. Elections for the Senate shall be held on the 2nd Thursday in the months of January and July.
2. The House election shall be as the following:
    i. The House will be split into groups A, B, C, D, each having four Representatives in each group
   ii. Group A elections are held on the 1st Thursday of Jan, April, July and Oct
   iii. Group B elections are held on the 1st Thursday of Feb, May, Aug and Nov
   iiii. Group C elections are held on the last Thursday of Jan, April, July and Oct
   iiiii. Group D elections are held on the last Thursday of Feb, May, Aug and Nov
2. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in the House or Senate then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacted term within one week of the vacancy occurring; Such special election shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on a Friday and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary
4. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Congressional elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to Congress shall be by public post.
5. Those elected in ordinary elections to Congress shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate or appointed to the House shall take office as soon as the result of their election or appointment has been formally declared.

Section 5: Powers of the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 6: Powers denied to the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 7: Powers denied to the Regions (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]

I would like for this to be replaced with the current Article I.

What?

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I will resist any attempts to turn this into a non-parliamentary system.

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It obviously needs cleaning up, but I like the general idea of PR party-list. However, parties need to construct their lists before hand, or else I'll recommend voting against this.