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November 26, 2020, 01:47:59 AM
News: 2020 Election day live thread: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=409870.0

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  Parliamentary Bicameralism (Discussion Open)
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Author Topic: Parliamentary Bicameralism (Discussion Open)  (Read 79166 times)
ilikeverin
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« Reply #300 on: May 03, 2009, 05:28:08 PM »

Is it just me, or does it seem needlessly complicated that these proposals have two legislative bodies, with presiding officers over both, a President, and possibly regions?
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Purple State
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« Reply #301 on: May 03, 2009, 05:47:42 PM »

Is it just me, or does it seem needlessly complicated that these proposals have two legislative bodies, with presiding officers over both, a President, and possibly regions?

They address the President peripherally, have one presiding officer over both legislative bodies, and don't mention regions at all. It may just be you...
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #302 on: May 03, 2009, 05:55:17 PM »

Is it just me, or does it seem needlessly complicated that these proposals have two legislative bodies, with presiding officers over both, a President, and possibly regions?

They address the President peripherally, have one presiding officer over both legislative bodies, and don't mention regions at all. It may just be you...

I was talking more in terms of overall development of this proposal; the Articles given are more symptomatic of the complication than specifically problematic.
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Purple State
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« Reply #303 on: May 03, 2009, 05:59:58 PM »

Is it just me, or does it seem needlessly complicated that these proposals have two legislative bodies, with presiding officers over both, a President, and possibly regions?

They address the President peripherally, have one presiding officer over both legislative bodies, and don't mention regions at all. It may just be you...

I was talking more in terms of overall development of this proposal; the Articles given are more symptomatic of the complication than specifically problematic.

It doesn't seem any more muddled than the universalism proposal or our current system at this point. Government is complicated, but understanding it can be fun.
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Purple State
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« Reply #304 on: May 03, 2009, 10:26:29 PM »

Option 1

Article 1: The Congress of Atlasia

Section 1: Formation of the Senate
1. The Senate shall be composed of five Senators, each with a term of six months. All Senators shall be elected by national public post.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for Senate who has not attained two hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Senator may not hold any other public office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided. In the absence of the President, defined as 72 hours of inaction in Atlasia, the Prime Minister shall serve as interim President of the Senate until his return.

Section 2: Formation of the House
1. The House of Representatives, herein referred to as House, shall be made up of fifteen Representatives, each with a term of two months. All Representatives shall be elected by national public post.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for the House who has not attained one hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Representative may not hold any other federal or executive office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. A joint session of Congress shall be convened for the appointment of a Prime Minister, herein referred to as the Speaker, at the beginning of each session of Congress, or upon the resignation or removal of the current Prime Minister, from among the current members of Congress. The Speaker shall be elected by a simple majority of the joint session and shall serve the role of Speaker of Congress, who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the Senate and House and for managing every day business in the two chambers.
4. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Congress, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote in each respective chamber. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the Prime Minister and sponsors of the Bill or Resolution from each chamber for conference, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of a chamber. Upon resolution of any differences between the separate versions of legislation, the Bill or Resolution shall be returned to both chambers for approval. If passed by both chambers separately, the revised Bill or Resolution shall then be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if each chamber shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Congress by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.

Section 4: Elections to Congress
1. Each term of the Senate shall last no longer than six months from the date that members are eligible to be sworn into office; Each term of the House shall last no longer than two months from the date that members are eligible to be sworn into office.
2. Elections for each chamber shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second Friday following the dissolution of said chamber and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in the House, the Chair of that Representative's Party shall appoint a person to fill the remainder of that term. If the Representative is registered as an independent, he shall be given the power to appoint his successor.
4. If a vacancy shall occur in the Senate, then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacated term within one week of the vacancy occurring; Such special election shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on a Friday and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary.
5. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Congressional elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to Congress shall be by public post.
6. Those elected in ordinary elections to Congress shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate or appointed to the House shall take office as soon as the result of their election or appointment has been formally declared.

Section 5: Dissolution of Congress
1. The power to dissolve Congress shall be divided as follows:
     a. The Speaker shall have the power to dissolve both chambers of Congress simultaneously by his recommendation through public post. He shall be allowed to exercise this power once every six months.
     b. The President of Atlasia shall have the power to dissolve any one chamber of Congress by his recommendation through public post. The President shall be allowed to exercise this power once every three months.
     c. The Congress of Atlasia shall have the power to dissolve both chambers of Congress by loss of a confidence motion on the Speaker. Such a motion shall automatically be brought to a vote upon recommendation, through public post, by five members of Congress. The motion shall require a vote by each chamber of Congress, respectively, to be carried or lost. In the event of a tie the motion shall be considered lost and Congress shall be dissolved. Confidence motions may be brought by the Congress once every two months.
     d. Upon the fulfillment of a chamber's respective term in office, said chamber shall be instantly considered dissolved.

Section 6: Powers of the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 7: Powers denied to the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 8: Powers denied to the Regions (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]
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Purple State
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« Reply #305 on: May 03, 2009, 10:27:40 PM »

Option 2

Article 1: The Congress of Atlasia

Section 1: Formation of the Senate
1. 1. The Senate shall be composed of five Senators, each with a term of six months. All Senators shall be elected national by popular vote.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for Senate who has not attained two hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Senator may not hold any other public office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the President and who shall manage the everyday business of the Senate.
4. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.

Section 2: Formation of the House
1. The House of Representatives, herein referred to as House, shall be made up of fifteen Representatives, each with a term of two months. All Representatives shall be elected by national party vote.
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for the House who has not attained one hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Representative may not hold any other federal or executive office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The House shall elect a Speaker of the House who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House and for managing every day business.

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Congress, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote in each respective chamber. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the PPT, Speaker, and sponsors of the Bill or Resolution from each chamber for conference, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of a chamber. Upon resolution of any differences between the separate versions of legislation, the Bill or Resolution shall be returned to both chambers for approval. If passed by both chambers separately, the revised Bill or Resolution shall then be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if each chamber shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Congress by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.

Section 4: Elections to the Senate
1. Elections for the Senate shall be held in the months of January and July of each year.
2. Elections for each chamber shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the third Friday of the month and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in the Senate, then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacated term within one week of the vacancy occurring; Such special election shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second Friday following the vacancy and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary.
5. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of elections to the Senate and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the Senate shall be by public post.
6. Those elected in ordinary elections to the Senate shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate shall take office as soon as the result of their election or appointment has been formally declared.


Section 5: Elections to the House of Representatives
1. Elections for the House shall be held on every odd numbered month of the year.
2. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second Friday of a given month and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. On the second Friday before elections, each party shall hold an internal, public election to determine a preferential list of members to be seated in the House based on the proportion of votes received by each party and the ordered preference of members.
4. The ballot for House elections shall consist of those parties officially recognized in Atlasia, as well as a list of independent candidates. Upon the conclusion of the election, the percentage of the vote received by each party and independent candidate shall be determined and reported by the Commissioner of Elections in public post. Seats shall be apportioned by the following formula: Total percentage of votes received divided by [100 divided by the total number of offices in the election]. Resulting numbers that are not integers shall be rounded to the nearest integer. If evenly split, the party with the greatest proportion of votes between those split shall receive the seat.
5. If a vacancy shall occur in the House, the Chair of that Representative's Party shall appoint a person to fill the remainder of that term. If the Representative is registered as an independent, he shall be given the power to appoint his successor.
6. The House shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of elections to the House and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the House shall be by public post.
7. Those elected in ordinary elections to the House shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those appointed to vacancies in the House shall take office as soon as their appointment has been formally declared.
8. Each party shall have necessary power to determine regulations, procedure, and the form of internal elections. A party shall be considered a candidate for House elections upon fulfillment of all requirements outlined by this Constitution and the appropriate statute.

Section 6: Powers of the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 7: Powers denied to the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 8: Powers denied to the Regions (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]
[/quote]
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Purple State
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« Reply #306 on: May 03, 2009, 10:30:07 PM »

I bring the following motion to a vote by the Convention delegates:

The current Article I shall be replaced by:

[] Option 1 (2 posts up)
[] Option 2 (1 post up)
[] NOTA (no change)

Please choose only one of the above choices. Voting shall be open for 48 hours.

~Presiding Officer Purple State
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #307 on: May 04, 2009, 12:27:45 AM »

[X] Option 1
[  ] Option 2
[  ] NOTA (no change)
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Hashemite
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« Reply #308 on: May 04, 2009, 06:47:06 AM »

  • Option 1 (2 posts up)
[] Option 2 (1 post up)
[] NOTA (no change)

Though I have some rather important issues with it.
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Devilman88
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« Reply #309 on: May 04, 2009, 08:01:53 AM »

[X] Option 1
[  ] Option 2
[  ] NOTA (no change)
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #310 on: May 04, 2009, 08:49:52 AM »

  • Option 1
[  ] Option 2
[  ] NOTA
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Lief 🐋
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« Reply #311 on: May 04, 2009, 10:52:56 AM »

Option 1
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #312 on: May 04, 2009, 12:51:11 PM »

Option 1
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afleitch
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« Reply #313 on: May 04, 2009, 12:59:22 PM »

Option 1
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Daniel Adams
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« Reply #314 on: May 04, 2009, 03:23:36 PM »

Option 1.
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Hashemite
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« Reply #315 on: May 04, 2009, 03:43:37 PM »

I really like Smid's proposals that he outlined in the universalism thread. I hope we could work out something similar here.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #316 on: May 04, 2009, 04:21:29 PM »

I really like Smid's proposals that he outlined in the universalism thread. I hope we could work out something similar here.

What in particular?
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bgwah
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« Reply #317 on: May 04, 2009, 04:36:37 PM »

NOTA
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bgwah
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« Reply #318 on: May 04, 2009, 05:37:35 PM »

Since most of you seem to be supporting Option 1, I'll point out some of my problems with it.

Five-member Senate elections every six months? Really? Twice a year?!?! No, this is an elections game and this is unacceptable. And don't think covert attempts to abolish regional Senate seats is going unnoticed.

Perhaps some will counter with the fact that we have Representative elections every two months. But 15 seats? Didn't we only have like, 6 candidates for Senate in December? Maybe 7 or so last April? What makes you people think there will actually be 15 people willing to run? What makes you think they'll be at all active? But more importantly, what makes you think a good number more than 15 will run? We would need at least say, 20 or so candidates every two months to make the elections competitive, fun, and interesting, and I'm telling you right now that I don't think that is going to happen.
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Devilman88
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« Reply #319 on: May 04, 2009, 06:42:05 PM »

Since most of you seem to be supporting Option 1, I'll point out some of my problems with it.

Five-member Senate elections every six months? Really? Twice a year?!?! No, this is an elections game and this is unacceptable. And don't think covert attempts to abolish regional Senate seats is going unnoticed.

Perhaps some will counter with the fact that we have Representative elections every two months. But 15 seats? Didn't we only have like, 6 candidates for Senate in December? Maybe 7 or so last April? What makes you people think there will actually be 15 people willing to run? What makes you think they'll be at all active? But more importantly, what makes you think a good number more than 15 will run? We would need at least say, 20 or so candidates every two months to make the elections competitive, fun, and interesting, and I'm telling you right now that I don't think that is going to happen.

Well, first off, I too think six month is a long time, but whatever. Also in April the parties were only willing to run a few members so that the vote wouldn't split each other. Also Mr. President, how about you give us some good ideas and stop putting down all the ideas. It isn't like you are that active in Atlasia anyways.
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #320 on: May 04, 2009, 07:58:02 PM »

Since most of you seem to be supporting Option 1, I'll point out some of my problems with it.

Five-member Senate elections every six months? Really? Twice a year?!?! No, this is an elections game and this is unacceptable. And don't think covert attempts to abolish regional Senate seats is going unnoticed.

Perhaps some will counter with the fact that we have Representative elections every two months. But 15 seats? Didn't we only have like, 6 candidates for Senate in December? Maybe 7 or so last April? What makes you people think there will actually be 15 people willing to run? What makes you think they'll be at all active? But more importantly, what makes you think a good number more than 15 will run? We would need at least say, 20 or so candidates every two months to make the elections competitive, fun, and interesting, and I'm telling you right now that I don't think that is going to happen.

I agree with you on this, for the most part, but I believe the intent of the vote was whether we wanted a more parliamentary system or a less parliamentary system, and that we would be ironing out such differences at a later date.
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Purple State
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« Reply #321 on: May 04, 2009, 08:56:29 PM »

Since most of you seem to be supporting Option 1, I'll point out some of my problems with it.

Five-member Senate elections every six months? Really? Twice a year?!?! No, this is an elections game and this is unacceptable. And don't think covert attempts to abolish regional Senate seats is going unnoticed.

Perhaps some will counter with the fact that we have Representative elections every two months. But 15 seats? Didn't we only have like, 6 candidates for Senate in December? Maybe 7 or so last April? What makes you people think there will actually be 15 people willing to run? What makes you think they'll be at all active? But more importantly, what makes you think a good number more than 15 will run? We would need at least say, 20 or so candidates every two months to make the elections competitive, fun, and interesting, and I'm telling you right now that I don't think that is going to happen.

First, 6 months is simply to make the Senate more appealing than the House. The houses can be dissolved plenty often so acting like 6 months is the only option is ridiculous.

Second, there is no covert attempt to abolish regions. I support regions myself. But considering when we voted on including an article on regions to this proposal you voted against it, I would save your criticism for someone a little more sympathetic. You can't play both sides and expect to just prance along.

Third, the number of Reps is up for discussion and I wouldn't object to lowering it to 10 or so. Considering you have hardly contributed to the discussion of proposals thus far, I can't say I really get why you come in now with such fire.
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Purple State
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« Reply #322 on: May 04, 2009, 08:58:46 PM »
« Edited: May 04, 2009, 09:35:39 PM by Senator Purple State »

Current Vote Totals
Option 1 = 9 (Marokai, Hashemite, $Dan$, PiT, Lief, ilikeverin, afleitch, Daniel Adams, Verily)
Option 2 = 0
NOTA = 1 (bgwah)

Quorum: Achieved
Time remaining: ~25 hours
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Verily
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« Reply #323 on: May 04, 2009, 09:32:33 PM »

Option 1
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dead0man
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« Reply #324 on: May 05, 2009, 01:10:22 AM »

Option 1
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