Parliamentary Bicameralism (Discussion Open)

[Purple State]

I make a motion that we vote to reduce the regions to three and rewrite Article I for three regions, not five. We can work out the details of the regions later on.

I say we move on to the next Article and work out the regions at the end. The best idea is to get all the proposals done, vote which one we want, and then work out the miscellaneous issues that may prove contentious. No reason to go through these fights over and over for each proposal.

[Purple State]

I make a motion that we vote to reduce the regions to three and rewrite Article I for three regions, not five. We can work out the details of the regions later on.

I say we move on to the next Article and work out the regions at the end. The best idea is to get all the proposals done, vote which one we want, and then work out the miscellaneous issues that may prove contentious. No reason to go through these fights over and over for each proposal.

Ok, just trying to get this active. What is the next Article?

I would like to see someone craft an Article on the Prime Minister and on the President. Although I am somewhat questioning the need for a separate one for the PM. His powers have been outlined in Article I. What would be added by an addition article?

[Purple State]

Considering the time spent writing and editing half of this stuff, I don't go searching pages back to find these things. Not to mention the potential for things to change when articles are passed ahead of this one.

Here is the written version of Article II as written by Hashemite and edited by me:

Article 2: The Government

Section 1: Role of the Prime Minister
1. The Head of Government of the Republic of Atlasia shall be a Prime Minister.
2. The Government of Atlasia shall consist of the Prime Minister and his or her chosen Ministers.

Section 2: Election of the Prime Minister
1. The Prime Minister shall be elected by the joint sitting of Congress after every election involving either or both chambers, or in the event of the vacancy of the position.
2. No Person shall be eligible to become a candidate for the office of Prime Minister who has not attained two hundred or more posts, is not a member of Congress, and is not a registered voter in Atlasia.
3. In order to be a candidate, a person must announce their candidacy and receive the endorsement of three other sitting members of Congress.
4. Elections of the Prime Minister shall be through public post in a specially designated thread to be opened and certified by the President of Atlasia.
5. If a candidate has received half plus one of the votes cast, he shall be deemed elected.
6. If no candidate has received half plus one of the votes cast in the first round of voting, the lowest-placed candidate for Prime Minister is eliminated before a second round of voting is held.
7. The conditions in Clause 5 continue until a candidate has received half plus one of the votes cast, at which time he or she shall be deemed elected.
8. Upon the election of a Prime Minister, the Prime Minister-elect, in a speech to the joint sitting of Congress, shall present his government's agenda for the parliamentary term.
9. Upon conclusion of this speech, the members of the joint sitting of Congress shall vote in a confidence vote on the Prime Minister and his agenda, which shall require half plus one of all votes cast to carry. In the event that the motion is lost, the process shall be repeated until a Prime Minister has been chosen and the Congress has carried a confidence motion. Any Prime Minister removed by a loss of a confidence motion shall be ineligible to be a candidate for said position in the same Congress.

Section 3: The Cabinet
1. Upon the carrying of the confidence vote outlined in Section 1, Clause 9, the Prime Minister shall name his appointed Cabinet.
2. No Person shall be eligible to become a Cabinet official who has not attained two hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in Atlasia.
3. A Member of Government shall hold no other paid position in a profession, business or on the executive board of a corporation.
4. The Cabinet posts shall be determined by statute following the adoption of this Constitution, or as needed by the Prime Minister in ad-hoc appointments. All ad-hoc Cabinet members are subject to approval by the Senate.
5. The Government shall be responsible to the chambers of Congress. Any Cabinet member may ask to address the legislature at any time.
6. The Prime Minister may dismiss any Minister at his discretion.

Section 4: Confidence Motions
1. A Member of Congress may move a motion of confidence in the sitting government with the support, through public post, of four other members of Congress.
2. The Member of Congress moving said motion shall have the right to detail the reasons behind his motion before a joint sitting of Congress.
3. The Prime Minister or a Person so delegated by the Prime Minister through public post shall have the right to express opposition to said motion in a speech before the joint sitting of Congress.
4. When the conditions set out in Clauses 2 and 3 have been met, the individual chambers of Congress shall hold separate votes on the motion, in which members may only vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain, where an abstention shall be considered a vote of no confidence.
5. A confidence motion shall last exactly 72 hours and shall require a vote of half plus one of all attending voting members, totaling no less than a quorum, to carry.
6. If the confidence motion is lost in each respective chamber of Congress, the Government and Congress shall be instantly dissolved and new elections held as expressed in Article I, Section 4 of this Constitution.

[Purple State]

Okay, seeing as this Convention looks like a ghost town, I bring Article II to a vote. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain. The vote will last for 48 hours.

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[Purple State]

Aye, but I have a question about Sec. 3 Clause 3, how would this affect people who run newspapers? I value alot of the newspapers existing in Atlasia and I wouldn't like to see them affected by that.

Are you paid for your services as an Atlasian paper? If not, no worries.

[Purple State]

Current Vote Tally
Aye = 8 (Hashemite, Marokai, Dan, PiT, Franzl, Verily, afleitch, Lief)
Nay = 1 (MasterJedi)
Abstain = 0

Quorum: Not yet achieved
Time Remaining: >24 hours

[Purple State]

Final Vote Tally
Aye = 14 (Hashemite, Marokai, Dan, PiT, Franzl, Verily, afleitch, Lief, dead0, Smid, ilikeverin, AndrewCT, Daniel Adams, bullmoose88)
Nay = 2 (MasterJedi, bgwah)
Abstain = 0

Quorum: Achieved
Motion PASSES

[Purple State]

Any proposals for the Judiciary? I believe our current form is pretty good, but does anyone have other thoughts?

[Purple State]

FTR: Yes

The actual system is good.

The only thing who should be discussed is who nominate judges?

And their confirmation. Perhaps another way we can add prestige to the Senate.

[Purple State]

For review and discussion:

Article III: The President of Atlasia
Section 1: The Presidency
1. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall serve as the Head of State of Atlaisa and be elected for a term of approximately four months.
2. No person shall be President who has not attained 250 or more posts, and is not a registered voter.
3. The President shall be Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the Republic of Atlasia.
4. When vacancies shall occur on the Supreme Court, the President shall nominate a replacement with the advice and consent of the Senate.
5. The President shall nominate a neutral and active Game Moderator for the creation of world simulations in Atlasia. The GM shall be appointed with the advice and consent of the Senate. The President or the Senate shall have the ability to dismiss the GM for reasons of inactivity or gross partiality.
6. The President shall serve as the chair of any joint session of Congress, either formally distinguished in this Constitution or otherwise.

Section 2: Election to the Presidency
1. Presidential elections shall be held in the months of February, June and October. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second to last Friday of a given month and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
2. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Presidential elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the Presidency shall be by public post.
3. The President shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the first Friday in the month after their election.

Section 3: Vacancy and Incapacity of the Presidency
1. If the Presidency shall ever fall vacant or temporarily incapacitated, the President shall have the option to recommend a successor for himself, by public post. If the Senate shall concur, by two-thirds vote, with the decision of the President, the successor shall serve the remainder of the President's term.
2. If the Senate does not concur, emergency elections shall be held on the second Friday following the vacancy of the office. The shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Presidential elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections.


Article IV: The Supreme Court of Atlasia

Section 1: The Supreme Court
1. The judicial power of the Republic of Atlasia shall be vested in one Supreme Court.
2. The Supreme Court shall consist of three Justices who shall all be registered voters, one of whom shall be the Chief Justice. Justices shall hold their office during good behavior.
3. The Supreme Court shall be the sole body in the Forum with the authority to nullify or void federal laws. The Supreme Court shall only be able to nullify or void a federal law in the event that the federal law explicitly contradicts this Constitution.
4. The Supreme Court shall have authority to nullify or void regional laws. The Supreme Court shall only be able to nullify or void a regional law in the event that the regional law explicitly contradicts this Constitution.
5. The Supreme Court shall arbitrate in all disputes concerning federal elections.

Section 2: Trials
1. In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the region wherein the crime shall have been committed, which region shall have been previously ascertained by law.
2. If a trial does not occur within one month of the accusation for any reason, no trial shall be held and the accused will be declared innocent of the crime.
3. No person shall be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb.
4. No person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself.
5. The accused shall be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
6. All trials shall be presided over by a Supreme Court Justice, who shall be selected by the Supreme Court itself.
7. A jury shall be selected according to the laws of the Region in which the crime was committed and each juror shall post their verdict publicly.

[Purple State]

The President has enough power. He makes appointments and can dissolve a branch of parliament. The point is that the GM is a position that should not be left to the decision of one man. The office is subject to abuse and inactivity that requires some method to undo.

[Purple State]

The President has enough power. He makes appointments and can dissolve a branch of parliament. The point is that the GM is a position that should not be left to the decision of one man. The office is subject to abuse and inactivity that requires some method to undo.

Just a question. Did you remove my section of Article III dealing with Presidential powers?

I removed the Cabinet (as it is now the PMs), the State of the Forum address (that has never been practiced in my experience), and all references to the VP.

[Purple State]

The President has enough power. He makes appointments and can dissolve a branch of parliament. The point is that the GM is a position that should not be left to the decision of one man. The office is subject to abuse and inactivity that requires some method to undo.

Just a question. Did you remove my section of Article III dealing with Presidential powers?

I removed the Cabinet (as it is now the PMs), the State of the Forum address (that has never been practiced in my experience), and all references to the VP.

I was referring to the Section 3 of my proposed article on the President which is now on the floor.

I hadn't referred to it, but I can throw it in. Some of it seems extraneous to Atlasia.

What does everyone think of Hashemite's list of presidential powers?

For references:

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[Purple State]

I bring the following article on the presidency to the floor for a vote. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain. This shall last for 48 hours.

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I bring the following article on the judiciary to the floor for a vote. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain. This shall last for 48 hours.

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[Purple State]

President Current Vote Tally
Aye = 8
Nay = 3
Abstain = 1

Court Current Vote Tally
Aye = 13
Nay = 0

Quorum: Achieved
Time Remaining: ~15 hours

[Purple State]

President Final Vote Tally
Aye = 8
Nay = 3
Abstain = 1

Court Final Vote Tally
Aye = 13
Nay = 0

Thank you to all those who voted, although I am disappointed by the growing number of delegates that seem to be drifting away from the Convention.

[Purple State]

President Final Vote Tally
Aye = 8
Nay = 3
Abstain = 1

Court Final Vote Tally
Aye = 13
Nay = 0

Thank you to all those who voted, although I am disappointed by the growing number of delegates that seem to be drifting away from the Convention.

That is because this whole Convention is taking way to long.

It should not be a walk in the park. The ease with which a delegate can shape the new Constitution should be enough to garner at least more than 13 votes. Regardless, we will trudge on.

We are up to the easier parts now for this proposal. Less authentic crafting, but stickier topics.

[Purple State]

Aye on the Supreme Court.

Could people explain why they're voting nay on the President section?

Because it makes the Presidency an almost useless position in a parliamentary system if they have no unique-stand-alone powers that can't be overridden by parliament.

The President can dissolve either branch without losing his office. That is plenty of power I think.

[Purple State]

What is next?

Bill of rights, Constitutional amendments, Regions, Candidacy and office holding rules and Continuity of government.

The nuts and bolts.

[Purple State]

I bring the three following articles to a vote. Please vote on each motion individually. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

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[Purple State]

Regions should be abolished.

I still don't understand what harm the regions do. At best they provide a training ground for new members. At worst? They are inactive and boring. You don't gain anything by their abolition.

[Purple State]

Regions should be abolished.

I still don't understand what harm the regions do. At best they provide a training ground for new members. At worst? They are inactive and boring. You don't gain anything by their abolition.

I don't think it's a good idea to have an entire section of the game that is "inactive and boring."

That is worst case. We clearly see that some regions are not inactive and provide a vibrant training ground for new recruits. Look at how the Mideast has continued (despite your grim warnings months ago) to pump out active users. I went from Assembly member to Senator and now Dan or Persepolis will join me on that same track.

[Purple State]

Regions should be abolished.

I still don't understand what harm the regions do. At best they provide a training ground for new members. At worst? They are inactive and boring. You don't gain anything by their abolition.

I don't think it's a good idea to have an entire section of the game that is "inactive and boring."

That is worst case. We clearly see that some regions are not inactive and provide a vibrant training ground for new recruits. Look at how the Mideast has continued (despite your grim warnings months ago) to pump out active users. I went from Assembly member to Senator and now Dan or Persepolis will join me on that same track.

And I continue to insist that you would have been active anyway, especially if we created compensatory positions to deal somewhat with the decrease in positions brought about by the abolition of regions.

But it didn't hurt to have. Worst case we will see the regions are useless and remove them by amendment.

[Purple State]

Regions should be abolished.

I still don't understand what harm the regions do. At best they provide a training ground for new members. At worst? They are inactive and boring. You don't gain anything by their abolition.

I don't think it's a good idea to have an entire section of the game that is "inactive and boring."

That is worst case. We clearly see that some regions are not inactive and provide a vibrant training ground for new recruits. Look at how the Mideast has continued (despite your grim warnings months ago) to pump out active users. I went from Assembly member to Senator and now Dan or Persepolis will join me on that same track.

And I continue to insist that you would have been active anyway, especially if we created compensatory positions to deal somewhat with the decrease in positions brought about by the abolition of regions.

But it didn't hurt to have. Worst case we will see the regions are useless and remove them by amendment.

You know that will never happen

Not true, if I see the need to get rid of the regions, I would put the amendment myself in the senate.

Even if you could get the Amendment through the Senate (and I sincerely doubt you could), it would fail in the Pacific and Southeast regions by at least a 3 to 1 margin.

So how do we expect to pass any Constitution without an article including regions in three quarters of the regions for ratification?

[Purple State]

Current BoR Vote Count
Aye = 7
Nay = 1

Current Alterations Vote Count
Aye = 8
Nay = 0

Current Regions Vote Count
Aye = 6
Nay = 2

Quorum: Not achieved (8 < 10)
Time Remaining: ~23 hours


I will not be available to close this vote until Saturday night. Voting will close for these three articles at exactly 2:51pm and 17 seconds EST on May 29, 2009. If a quorum is not achieved at that time, the vote shall be extended by exactly 24 hours, at which time the vote shall end without exception.