Parliamentary Bicameralism (Discussion Open)

[Purple State]

I oppose it, as I've made clear earlier.

You still haven't explained how, if we allow dual office-holding, regions will serve as a drain on activity. At its lowest levels it serves simply as training grounds for new members. At its highest it can be a place of increased activity.

What's the issue? Even if they are dead it wouldn't hurt the federal level or the general game.

[Purple State]

We're not going to allow dual office holding though. It's pretty clear that that's incredibly unpopular.

Is it? I haven't heard an uproar of dissent on it. The Amendment in the Senate didn't pass, but this is rethinking the entire system. With increased seats in the federal government dual office holding on some level will likely be necessary.

[Purple State]

Fair enough. I bring the following motion to a vote of the Convention. Please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain. The vote shall be open for 48 hours, at precisely 9:15pm EST on Wednesday, April 15th. I will be away at that time for the end of Passover, but certification will not include any votes after that time.

Article _ (to be numbered appropriately later on)

Section 1: Regional Boundaries

1. The Republic of Atlasia shall be made up of three Regions.
2. The Senate and Parliament will hold a joint conference each June to redraw the boundaries of the Regions.
3. After conference, both the Senate and Parliament shall hold separate votes to confirm the new boundaries. Confirmation shall require a simple majority in each house.
4. In the event that a new State joins the Republic of Atlasia, the Senate and Parliament shall hold an emergency conference for the sole purpose of deciding the placement of the new State in the Regions.

Section 2: Regional Government
1. The Regions may elect a Head of State as chief executive officer. No Head of State shall be elected for a term lasting longer than six months.
2. A Region must have an Assembly of no less than three members. The Assembly shall serve as the legislative body of each Region.
3. A Region may establish a judicial body to assist in the maintenance of law and order within its boundaries. So long as no such body has been instituted, the federal Supreme Court shall serve as the arbitrating body in all disputes that arise under regional law.
4. Regions shall stand autonomous of the federal government and may govern themselves as they so choose, except where otherwise provided for in this Constitution.

[Purple State]

Nope (opposition to regions, etc.  don't have a problem with dual office holding)

If you have no problem with dual office holding why are you anti-region?

[Purple State]

Nay.

What is on the table is too specific a proposal. It's not bad and has it's merits, but I can't support it. Regions 'must have an Assembly'..must they? Surely if they are retained, whether as playable entities or not it is up for regional constitutions to determine how they are to be governed?

That's a fair assessment. I was unsure how people would view that, unfortunately no one posts their thoughts. They simply vote and then dissent.

We really need greater participation to get something going here.

[Purple State]

Fair enough. I am going to do what I did last time, stop the current vote on the motion and allow you all to actually discuss things and work it out now.

Work on a compromise, have some substantive discussion, and actually get something done guys. It's impossible to move forward if no one contributes their thoughts until the time comes to vote.

[Purple State]

I think there are merits to both ideas. Could we compromise on a clause that states, "Each region shall form for itself a democratic body best conducive for the service and representation of its citizens."

I would say I am willing to throw in a line stating that, "The federal government shall not encroach upon the sovereign right of regions to apportion federal funding and act independently in matters not involving the common welfare."

Of course, this is all for discussion by you guys.

[Purple State]

I fail to see why the activity of the regions couldn't simply be channeled into an expanded federal government.

What will citizens uninvolved in the federal government directly do with their time? Regions give them a possible outlet for that. Without any possibilities of regional activity it just further removes people from the game. At least regions give the option to get involved on some level, a way to gain a reputation and experience in the game. Otherwise what is there?

[Purple State]

1) What will people not involved in either do with their time? (proponents of regions keep making arguments for universalism! )  The best way to keep people from being removed from the game is ensuring that they can always play a part in it.

I am not arguing against universalism here, nor do I deny it has merits. But we are working with this proposal, not a universalist one, so when you vote in this thread it should be to make this the best proposal it can be. You don't seem to understand that we are supposed to develop all the proposals well, not push one agenda while attempting to stunt the others.

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Noobs would likely be confused or intimidated by the process and veteran members. Not to mention people will inevitably lose elections. What are they to do in the months before elections?

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The purpose of regions is to orient new members, provide an entirely separate outlet for current members, and to simply have the grassroots element of Atlasia thrive. Even if regions aren't active at times, the fact that they are at any time is better than not even giving them the chance. I must have repeated this five times now and then you come back saying I didn't explain my point.

To make it clearer, without regions there is no mechanism to orient new members, no system to provide experience to new members, and nowhere for new members to be introduced to the members and functions of the game in a more informal setting. Sure the regions may not be so active all the time, but the chance that they may, at any point, be active and fulfill some of the roles I believe they can is worth keeping them around.

[Purple State]

You use me, $Dan$, and Marokai as examples. Both myself and $Dan$ were first active on the regional level. My appointment to the Mideast Assembly was the only thing that kept me active and caring. $Dan$ has both an active Mideast and this Convention which is a great opportunity to start, during the actual formation of the process.

I have no problem with no regions for universalist proposals, but regions are clearly beneficial, at some level, for a game where not everyone has a say on the federal level.

[Purple State]

So maybe under this proposal we should give regional offices some check on or involvement in federal power. Of course, that can only be done once we have a provision allowing regions which is why this article was the first proposed.

[Purple State]

I think it would be wise to begin working on this from the offices first, before we move on to holdovers like regions, Bill of Rights, etc.

We can always go back and amend these as things come up, but it would be best to get the real body of the proposal fleshed out. Anyone want to write up an article or two?

[Purple State]

That seems like something we can work with. Needs to be more hashed out, but a good start.

[Purple State]

Just needs more detail. Something like this:

Article 1: The Congress of Atlasia

Section 1: Formation of the Senate
1. The Senate shall be composed of five Senators, each with a term of six months. All Senators shall be elected from the Regions. ( If we have three regions then one from each region and two at-large)
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for Senate who has not attained two hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Senator may not hold any other public office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President and who shall manage the everyday business of the Senate.
4. The Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.

Section 2: Formation of the House
1. The House of Representatives, herein referred to as House, shall be made up of fifteen Represtatives, each with a term of two months. All Representatives shall be elected from the Regions. (If we have three regions then three from each region and six at-large)
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for the House who has not attained one hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Representative may not hold any other federal or executive office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The House shall elect a Speaker of the House who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House and for managing every day business.

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Congress, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote in each respective chamber. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the PPT, Speaker, and sponsors of the Bill or Resolution from each chamber for conference, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of a chamber. Upon resolution of any differences between the separate versions of legislation, the Bill or Resolution shall be returned to both chambers for approval. If passed by both chambers separately, the revised Bill or Resolution shall then be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if each chamber shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Congress by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.

Section 4: Elections to Congress
1. Elections for the Senate shall be held in the months of January and July; Elections for the House shall be held on every odd numbered month of the year.
2. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the third Friday of a given month and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in the House, then the Governor of that Representative's Region shall appoint a person to fill the remainder of that term.
4. If a vacancy shall occur in the Senate, then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacated term within one week of the vacancy occurring; Such special election shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on a Friday and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary.
5. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Congressional elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to Congress shall be by public post.
6. Those elected in ordinary elections to Congress shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate or appointed to the House shall take office as soon as the result of their election or appointment has been formally declared.

Section 5: Powers of the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 6: Powers denied to the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 7: Powers denied to the Regions (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]

[Purple State]

That is great, but are we going to have a VP under this plan?

I imagine so. It seems weird to have a President without a VP. It also extends a sort of check by the President. We could also leave the VP-Senate relationship to the PM, but I would like someone independent of the Senate to have this power. The PM will have his own stuff.

[Purple State]

That is great, but are we going to have a VP under this plan?

I imagine so. It seems weird to have a President without a VP. It also extends a sort of check by the President. We could also leave the VP-Senate relationship to the PM, but I would like someone independent of the Senate to have this power. The PM will have his own stuff.

What would be the use of a President, a Vice President, and Prime Minister? The PM is the head of government, the President will probably end up ceremonial, but the VP? Is it really wise to have that many roles in government?

I'll oppose any plan for this setup VP. If you want a VP, vote for presidential parliamentarian.

So what is your proposal for President of the Senate? Should we use the Dean, which would be an already elected member?

[Purple State]

That is great, but are we going to have a VP under this plan?

I imagine so. It seems weird to have a President without a VP. It also extends a sort of check by the President. We could also leave the VP-Senate relationship to the PM, but I would like someone independent of the Senate to have this power. The PM will have his own stuff.

What would be the use of a President, a Vice President, and Prime Minister? The PM is the head of government, the President will probably end up ceremonial, but the VP? Is it really wise to have that many roles in government?

I'll oppose any plan for this setup VP. If you want a VP, vote for presidential parliamentarian.

So what is your proposal for President of the Senate? Should we use the Dean, which would be an already elected member?

Why not the President or PM?

President already has veto power and PM will have been involved in the vote. It's up to how much overlap you are all willing to tolerate.

[Purple State]

I would like to also give the President his own legislation slot and the power to dismiss the Parliament every so often. Perhaps once per term. He also needs to be impeachable and have term limits (of course, I know many disagree with that last one).

[Purple State]

Delegates, I bring the following motion to a vote of the Convention:

Article 1: The Congress of Atlasia

Section 1: Formation of the Senate
1. The Senate shall be composed of five Senators, each with a term of six months. All Senators shall be elected from the Regions. ( If we have three regions then one from each region and two at-large)
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for Senate who has not attained two hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Senator may not hold any other public office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the President and who shall manage the everyday business of the Senate.
4. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.

Section 2: Formation of the House
1. The House of Representatives, herein referred to as House, shall be made up of fifteen Represtatives, each with a term of two months. All Representatives shall be elected from the Regions. (If we have three regions then three from each region and six at-large)
2. No Person shall be eligible to run for the House who has not attained one hundred or more posts, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent. A Representative may not hold any other federal or executive office in Atlasia for the duration of their term.
3. The House shall elect a Speaker of the House who shall be responsible for chairing debate that occurs within the House and for managing every day business.

Section 3: Congressional Rules and Legislation
1. The separate chambers of Congress may establish their own rules of procedure, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, respectively, may expel a member of the same chamber.
2. Each chamber shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum in each chamber shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Congress, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote in each respective chamber. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the PPT, Speaker, and sponsors of the Bill or Resolution from each chamber for conference, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of a chamber. Upon resolution of any differences between the separate versions of legislation, the Bill or Resolution shall be returned to both chambers for approval. If passed by both chambers separately, the revised Bill or Resolution shall then be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Congress, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if each chamber shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Congress by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.

Section 4: Elections to Congress
1. Elections for the Senate shall be held in the months of January and July; Elections for the House shall be held on every odd numbered month of the year.
2. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the third Friday of a given month and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in the House, then the Governor of that Representative's Region shall appoint a person to fill the remainder of that term.
4. If a vacancy shall occur in the Senate, then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacated term within one week of the vacancy occurring; Such special election shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on a Friday and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later. However, if a vacancy shall occur when there is a person due to assume that office within two weeks, then no special election shall be necessary.
5. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Congressional elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to Congress shall be by public post.
6. Those elected in ordinary elections to Congress shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the Friday following their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate or appointed to the House shall take office as soon as the result of their election or appointment has been formally declared.

Section 5: Powers of the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 6: Powers denied to the Congress (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 7: Powers denied to the Regions (with some small edits later)
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]

The motion shall be open for 48 hours or until a clear majority have voted to pass or reject the motion. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.


I want some more time to look at the other two articles and make them more concrete/better worded. I will put them up whenever the vote on this article concludes.

[Purple State]

Aye, but an article for impeachment of the President needs to be put in either Article 1 or 3.

Duly noted. This is why I wanted to look over the other two articles before bringing them to a vote.

[Purple State]

Aye, I guess, though I really think that electing people from the regions is a bad idea. Which elections are currently more exciting and competitive, our national Senate elections or our regional Senate elections? Often we're lucky if more than one person runs for a regional seat.

Things can be edited later on. It's important that we get something no. Clearly no guarantee that regions will even exist.

[Purple State]

Nay. Draft a version without Regions and then add them in later if the Convention supports them. Starting out with Regions in the plan biases it towards the introduction of Regions.

Wouldn't it be unbiased as it maintains the status quo? Rather than a blatant change that shows bias towards the no-region people?

[Purple State]

Final Tally
Aye = 9
Nay = 1

Quorum: Achieved (barely, cmon guys)
Motion PASSES


If someone would like to write up an impeachment section that would be great.

[Purple State]

I think all he did was change the way elections work for the House...

[Purple State]

I mean, I guess I sort of see the reasoning to staggering the elections if you're going to do away with regions, but why not just keep regions and allow dual office holding? There's no harm in that.

Although I do find massive upheaval elections slightly more...exciting. Especially because we forget that this is still a parliamentary government, with dissolution of Parliament, etc. It just has a more Americanized name.