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  Talk Elections
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  Constitutional Convention (Moderators: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee, Lumine)
  Presidential Parliamentarian (Discussion Open) (search mode)
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Author Topic: Presidential Parliamentarian (Discussion Open)  (Read 32221 times)
Purple State
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« on: April 02, 2009, 11:18:17 pm »
« edited: June 24, 2009, 09:27:33 pm by Senator Purple State »

This thread is for the development of a Presidential Parliamentarian system of government. Please propose ideas for individual pieces of construction, rather than entire proposals. I would prefer no more than one Article (e.g. Executive, Judicial, etc.) per post maximum. I will include all pieces that have been approved in this first post as they are passed through votes.

As a reminder, the Rules of Order state that, "All elections and votes required by this law shall require the participation of 50% of all delegates, as determined by the sign in thread, at the start of the election or vote to be valid, unless otherwise stated [in the RoO]."

Please keep debate and discussion friendly.

The following is a brief outline of this system: An unicameral legislature, like the one we have currently, expanded slightly, that elects a Prime Minister (Head of Government) who selects his cabinet. This could also include a President (Head of State) that is elected through a nationwide popular vote



The Constitution

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Purple State
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 01:36:41 pm »

I think, before working on minute details about regions (which can be left until almost the very end), we should focus on developing the Executive Branch, ideas about the legislature, etc.
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Purple State
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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2009, 02:49:23 pm »

We will need to define the role of the PM. It can't just be left to the Parliament or they will saddle the PM with a bunch of responsibilities and no powers. We need to establish a situation in which the PM really runs the show, so that it is a coveted position and requires compromise and party coalitions to get one going.
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Purple State
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 05:09:39 pm »

I don't intend on starting anything immediately. Basically, for now debate is more what's needed to figure out these structures and such. What you are doing is pretty much exactly what I want. There are clearly outlined parts to each form of government, so proposals and ideas (that are clearly delineated, as you did) are perfect for getting discussion going.
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Purple State
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2009, 05:15:10 pm »

Regarding your ideas Lief, I think we need to find some way for Cabinet members to play a real, substantive role in debate. Right now certain positions play almost no role. I would like a Cabinet, not forced to be made of MPs, that has a Secretary for certain issues who can actually play a part, serve a purpose. Otherwise all we need is a SoFA and an AG.
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Purple State
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2009, 09:24:59 am »

I just want to say that I think, as has been mentioned before, the President needs to have some good old fashioned power in this kind of government. A special slot for legislation, some veto capability, appointing the judiciary, etc. A figurehead serves no purpose in Atlasia.

Would anyone like to address how parties will work in this system? I would imagine they are less meaningful in a system like this than in a Universal system, but what would PM elections look like?
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Purple State
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2009, 12:34:58 pm »

Parties would indeed be more meaningful than they currently are, as who the Prime Minister is, as well as his cabinet, would rest largely on the alliances between parties.

But would an expanded Senate of 15 or so members have enough presence to really allow meaningful compromise to occur on this front? It largely rests on the way parties develop. If we see a large center right party and a large center left party develop, there could just be partisan bickering. But if we see small "interest group"-like parties, this could be very interesting.

Perhaps we set a cap for party membership? It would make membership more meaningful, loyalty more important for remaining in the party, party alliances more important, and political oustings a fun addition to the game (albeit controversial). This could lead to the constant formation of new parties, party changing, etc.
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Purple State
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2009, 09:45:15 pm »

I propose that this proposal be renamed Parliamentarian Bicameralism and be replaced with:

"Small Senate (5ish) with power to originate amend legislation
Relatively large Parliament (15ish) with power to originate legislation
PM elected by both houses, presents agenda, followed by NC vote
PM appoints Cabinet members (either office holders or not)
Possible committees in the Parliament, with chairmen and some form of markup?
President with power to dissolve Parliament, but not Senate (I threw this in. It sorta gives the Senate that more regal feel as well)"

That sound kinda good.

It's the compromise already being voted on in a different thread and an hour away from passing. If ilikeverin would like to cut down the number of proposals to two, the compromise and universalism, I would recommend he motion to dismiss the this proposal. I don't see that flying with the other delegates though.

Rather than pushing this fight further, try to develop the universalism idea and make it the best option.
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Purple State
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2009, 10:28:33 pm »

Okay.

Seeing as there has been no substantive debate for two days, I would like to amend this thread to be titled Presidential Universalism, which constitutes:

  • A President and Vice-President similar to what we have now.
  • An elected Upper House, a Senate, with 15 Senators, elected every two months.
  • A universal Lower House.
  • The abolition of Regions.
  • Cabinet members must be selected from the Senate.

Do you plan on actually developing that proposal? Or do we just get to edit this and let it die? Seriously, I understand you're frustrated, but you need to let it go and put this effort into the universalism proposal that you've been active in. Work to make your proposal of choice better, rather than all the rest worse. You want to outshine the rest, not be the better of the bad.

Come on now, this Convention isn't about petty differences and rivalries. You lost a vote. It's going to happen from time to time. I didn't go kaboom when it seemed like everyone was preparing to shoot down the initial motion in that thread, something I had been on the verge of lobbying behind. Instead I got everyone to work together and forge a compromise. Let it be.
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Purple State
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Posts: 6,713
United States


« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2009, 10:50:41 pm »

Okay.

Seeing as there has been no substantive debate for two days, I would like to amend this thread to be titled Presidential Universalism, which constitutes:

  • A President and Vice-President similar to what we have now.
  • An elected Upper House, a Senate, with 15 Senators, elected every two months.
  • A universal Lower House.
  • The abolition of Regions.
  • Cabinet members must be selected from the Senate.

Those suggestions work work much better if you took it to an already existing proposal for universalism. Stop trying to be difficult.

Then shall we shut this thread down?  If universalism is being "taken to" the universalism thread, so should anti-universalism.

Let my comments be the last word on this. You seem to care a great deal about universalism and its success. So get moving on it.
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Purple State
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Posts: 6,713
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2009, 02:06:33 pm »

If there is no additional substantive discussion on this proposal by Friday at midnight EST I will call for a vote to end discussion and scrap this proposal.

The lack of participation and activity here is unacceptable.

~Presiding Officer Purple State
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Purple State
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 10:32:20 pm »

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I would like to give the power to redraft to the PM, or give the PM some power of intervention in this process, just to extend the checks and balances here.
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Purple State
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2009, 09:52:15 pm »

I would say no on the budget idea. It is too much of a stretch for the game.

Regarding impeachment, can we use the current rules of impeachment (do we have any?). If we don't currently have I see no reason to add. The office switches often enough.
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Purple State
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Posts: 6,713
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2009, 10:02:26 pm »

I don't think it can hurt to keep it in there. It is up to the citizens so that is fine. Just make sure to change it from private poll to private post.
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Purple State
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2009, 12:25:07 pm »
« Edited: April 20, 2009, 12:30:09 pm by Mideast Assembly Speaker Purple State »

This is where is stands now:

Article I. The Parliament

Section 1. Composition and Elections
1. The Parliament of Atlasia shall be composed of 15 Members of Parliament, hereafter referred to as MPs.
2. No Person shall be an MP who has not attained a hundred or more posts and is not a registered voter.
3. All MPs will be elected concurrently, in nationwide proportional elections.
4. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second Friday after the dissolution of Parliament and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later
5. The Parliament shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Parliamentary elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the Parliament shall be by public post.
6. Those elected to the Parliament shall take office as soon as the result of their election has been formally declared.
7. If a vacancy shall occur in the Parliament, the party of the MP who has vacated his seat shall have exactly one week after the creation of the vacancy to appoint a new MP. If the vacated seat belonged to an MP who did not align himself with a party, it shall remain vacant until the next election.

Section 2. The Government
1. The Government of Atlasia is composed of the Prime Minister and the Cabinet of Atlasia. The Government is to be selected from and responsible to the Parliament of Atlasia.
2. The Prime Minister is nominated, from among the elected MPs, by the President after the official certification of a Parliamentary election. He must then be confirmed by a majority vote from the Parliament. The President may not nominate an MP for the position of Prime Minister whose government's loss of confidence resulted in the most recent dissolution of Parliament.
3. The Prime Minister shall serve as the Head of Government. He shall be responsible for setting the national policy and leading the legislature. He shall also be responsible for nominating members of the Cabinet and filling any vacancies that may occur.
4. Cabinet ministers shall be responsible for certain policy portfolios and the management of their departments. [I hope Smid doesn't mind I stole that word for word Tongue] The composition and selection of the Cabinet and its members shall be at the discretion of the Prime Minister. The powers and responsible of the Cabinet shall be defined at the discretion of the Parliament.
5. Cabinet Ministers are responsible first and foremost to the Prime Minister, and may be dismissed at his/her discretion. Cabinet Ministers may also be dismissed by a majority vote of the parliament.
6. If the office of the Prime Minister shall fall vacant, then the President must nominate a new Prime Minister to be confirmed by a majority vote of the Parliament.

Section 3. Rules and Operation of Parliament

1. The Parliament may establish rules for its own proceedings, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, expel an MP.
2. The Parliament shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum of MPs shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Parliament, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia by the Prime Minister, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Parliament. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Parliament, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Parliament shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Parliament by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.
4. Whensoever the Parliament shall pass a bill, the Prime Minister shall have the option to redraft the bill and return it to the Parliament in redrafted form. The Prime Minister shall have this option once with each particular bill before presenting it to the President. The original sponsor of the bill, as so defined in Parliamentary rules, shall either file a motion to approve the Prime Minister's redraft by a simple majority vote, and send it to the President for his signature or veto, or withdraw the bill from the Parliament. If the Parliament approves the Prime Minister's redraft by a simple majority vote, the redrafted bill shall be sent to the President for his signature or veto. If the Parliament rejects the Prime Minister's redraft, the original sponsor shall either file a motion to send the original draft of the bill directly to the President for his signature or veto, or shall direct the Parliament to resume debate on the bill as originally passed.
5. The Parliament shall be dissolved after either a successful vote of no confidence against the current Government, a majority vote in favor of dissolution at the Prime Minister's discretion or the discretion of the President. If the Parliament is not dissolved through these means by the end of the fourth month after the official certification of the last election, it shall be automatically dissolved.

Section 4. Impeachment
1. In the same manner as the proposition of a Bill, Articles of Impeachment may be proposed against the President of Atlasia or any judicial officer of the federal government.
2. The Parliament will be empanelled as a grand jury to consider these Articles of Impeachment; In considering these Articles, the Chief Justice shall preside, unless it is his own impeachment, in which case the President of the Senate shall preside. A majority vote of the Parliament under quorum rules will be necessary to impeach the Officer.
3. The People shall have sole power to try such impeachments. The Chief Justice shall administer a public poll to try the impeachment, unless it is the Chief Justice who shall have been impeached, in which case the Prime Minister shall administer the public poll. The public poll shall be held for one week and shall require the consent of two-thirds voting to convict. Citizens shall make their vote publicly known in the form of a post.
4. Upon conviction by the People, the officer shall be removed from office immediately. Any person convicted upon impeachment shall be disqualified from holding any office under the Republic of Atlasia for a time period explicitly specified in the Articles of Impeachment.

Section 5. Powers of the Parliament
[insert the current Article 1, Section 5 here]

Section 6. Powers denied to the Parliament

[insert the current Article 1, Section 6 here]

Section 7. Powers denied to the Regions
[insert the current Article 1, Section 7 here]


How does that look for everyone?
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Purple State
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Posts: 6,713
United States


« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2009, 09:33:41 am »

Seeing as no one wants to discuss it... I bring the following motion to a vote, only including the first half of Article I. The rest shall be crafted and voted on separately.

Article I. The Parliament

Section 1. Composition and Elections
1. The Parliament of Atlasia shall be composed of 15 Members of Parliament, hereafter referred to as MPs.
2. No Person shall be an MP who has not attained a hundred or more posts and is not a registered voter.
3. All MPs will be elected concurrently, in nationwide proportional elections.
4. Elections shall be held from midnight Eastern Standard Time on the second Friday after the dissolution of Parliament and shall conclude exactly 72 hours later
5. The Parliament shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Parliamentary elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the Parliament shall be by public post.
6. Those elected to the Parliament shall take office as soon as the result of their election has been formally declared.
7. If a vacancy shall occur in the Parliament, the party of the MP who has vacated his seat shall have exactly one week after the creation of the vacancy to appoint a new MP. If the vacated seat belonged to an MP who did not align himself with a party, it shall remain vacant until the next election.

Section 2. The Government
1. The Government of Atlasia is composed of the Prime Minister and the Cabinet of Atlasia. The Government is to be selected from and responsible to the Parliament of Atlasia.
2. The Prime Minister is nominated, from among the elected MPs, by the President after the official certification of a Parliamentary election. He must then be confirmed by a majority vote from the Parliament. The President may not nominate an MP for the position of Prime Minister whose government's loss of confidence resulted in the most recent dissolution of Parliament.
3. The Prime Minister shall serve as the Head of Government. He shall be responsible for setting the national policy and leading the legislature. He shall also be responsible for nominating members of the Cabinet and filling any vacancies that may occur.
4. Cabinet ministers shall be responsible for certain policy portfolios and the management of their departments. The composition and selection of the Cabinet and its members shall be at the discretion of the Prime Minister. The powers and responsible of the Cabinet shall be defined at the discretion of the Parliament.
5. Cabinet Ministers are responsible first and foremost to the Prime Minister, and may be dismissed at his/her discretion. Cabinet Ministers may also be dismissed by a majority vote of the parliament.
6. If the office of the Prime Minister shall fall vacant, then the President must nominate a new Prime Minister to be confirmed by a majority vote of the Parliament.

Section 3. Rules and Operation of Parliament

1. The Parliament may establish rules for its own proceedings, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, expel an MP.
2. The Parliament shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum of MPs shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Parliament, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia by the Prime Minister, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Parliament. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Parliament, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Parliament shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Parliament by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.
4. Whensoever the Parliament shall pass a bill, the Prime Minister shall have the option to redraft the bill and return it to the Parliament in redrafted form. The Prime Minister shall have this option once with each particular bill before presenting it to the President. The original sponsor of the bill, as so defined in Parliamentary rules, shall either file a motion to approve the Prime Minister's redraft by a simple majority vote, and send it to the President for his signature or veto, or withdraw the bill from the Parliament. If the Parliament approves the Prime Minister's redraft by a simple majority vote, the redrafted bill shall be sent to the President for his signature or veto. If the Parliament rejects the Prime Minister's redraft, the original sponsor shall either file a motion to send the original draft of the bill directly to the President for his signature or veto, or shall direct the Parliament to resume debate on the bill as originally passed.
5. The Parliament shall be dissolved after either a successful vote of no confidence against the current Government, a majority vote in favor of dissolution at the Prime Minister's discretion or the discretion of the President. If the Parliament is not dissolved through these means by the end of the fourth month after the official certification of the last election, it shall be automatically dissolved.

Section 4. Impeachment
1. In the same manner as the proposition of a Bill, Articles of Impeachment may be proposed against the President of Atlasia or any judicial officer of the federal government.
2. The Parliament will be empanelled as a grand jury to consider these Articles of Impeachment; In considering these Articles, the Chief Justice shall preside, unless it is his own impeachment, in which case the President of the Senate shall preside. A majority vote of the Parliament under quorum rules will be necessary to impeach the Officer.
3. The People shall have sole power to try such impeachments. The Chief Justice shall administer a public poll to try the impeachment, unless it is the Chief Justice who shall have been impeached, in which case the Prime Minister shall administer the public poll. The public poll shall be held for one week and shall require the consent of two-thirds voting to convict. Citizens shall make their vote publicly known in the form of a post.
4. Upon conviction by the People, the officer shall be removed from office immediately. Any person convicted upon impeachment shall be disqualified from holding any office under the Republic of Atlasia for a time period explicitly specified in the Articles of Impeachment.

Voting will last for 48 hours. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.
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Purple State
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Posts: 6,713
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2009, 12:57:19 pm »

     I didn't notice how the MPs were elected before, but we're planning to use party lists for these elections, right?
That would be something specified by statute. Right now it just reads "proportional" so that we can change the system easily to find one that works.

Yeah, it's really up to the first Parliament to decide. Not that I have any idea how we intend on electing that first group.
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Purple State
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2009, 09:17:19 pm »

I'm leery of the mention of the President without establishing anything else about the position. Either remove references to the Presidency from the section or establish what the Presidency would entail first.

Nay, but open to the idea

The nature of the development process makes that a little hard. We don't want to simply establish the whole thing in one shot, so it's necessary to work through the things one at a time. When we get to the article of the presidency that will be when we establish that. I am open to your suggestions regarding that article.
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Purple State
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Posts: 6,713
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2009, 11:06:15 pm »

I'm leery of the mention of the President without establishing anything else about the position. Either remove references to the Presidency from the section or establish what the Presidency would entail first.

Nay, but open to the idea

The nature of the development process makes that a little hard. We don't want to simply establish the whole thing in one shot, so it's necessary to work through the things one at a time. When we get to the article of the presidency that will be when we establish that. I am open to your suggestions regarding that article.

True; I'm just looking for a brief statement regarding what the President is before he gets mentioned elsewhere, not a full Article describing the position.

Also, it's bad form to mention a position in the Constitution before it is established in the Constitution, although not doing so would probably be tough.

Right now it seems the Pres would be a nationally elected figure that has the power to dissolve Parliament, have a legislative slot, and have the power to sign/veto legislation. Any other ideas?
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Purple State
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Posts: 6,713
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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2009, 11:07:59 pm »

Current Tally
Aye = 8
Nay = 2

Quorum: Achieved
Time remaining: ~22 hours
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Purple State
Concerned Citizen
*****
Posts: 6,713
United States


« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2009, 10:50:05 am »

Final Tally
Aye = 10
Nay = 2

Quorum: Achieved
Motion PASSES



Thank you to all those who voted. If anyone would like to propose amendments to Article I please do so. Otherwise I hope to bring up revised versions of Articles II and III for discussion later today.
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Purple State
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Posts: 6,713
United States


« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2009, 04:23:13 pm »

Bump. Can delegates (or anyone really) provide ideas for Article 2 (the PM) and Article 3 (the Judiciary)?
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Purple State
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Posts: 6,713
United States


« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2009, 04:58:52 pm »

     I think I'll go ahead & get started on an article for the PM.

     EDIT: On second thought, I should leave that up to people who know something about a parliamentary system. Embarrassed

I would say your input is just as valuable as anyone else's. If you do not want to craft an entire Article, give ideas regarding a PM or President Article based on the proposal outline and first article. I don't mind doing most of the Article wording and crafting, but I need input and ideas. Eventually these proposals begin to blend together for me and I forget what the goal of each one is.
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Purple State
Concerned Citizen
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Posts: 6,713
United States


« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2009, 05:46:11 pm »

Want to write it up?
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