Sexless love or loveless sex?

[CubOB]

I laughed because it's a position that I personally feel is a "lesser" and so to see someone hold it up as evidence they support gay rights is amusing to me. The laughter comes what I felt was a contradiction, nothing more, and I recognise that somebody who doesnt share my positions wouldn't have found it funny. If you have taken it as me laughing at your position in general then I will apologise for that - apparently my intention wasn't as clear as I'd originally thought (well clearly it wasn't or there wouldn't be all this commotion!)

[Keystone Phil]

I laughed because it's a position that I personally feel is a "lesser" and so to see someone hold it up as evidence they support gay rights

I said it was proof that I don't hate/have a problem with gays but I don't see how that isn't generally supportive of gay rights just because it doesn't completely fit your position.

[CubOB]

I don't think we're going to change each other's minds here, do you?

[Marokai Backbeat]

Well hello there.

[Keystone Phil]

I don't think we're going to change each other's minds here, do you?

No but I'm making it clear that it's totally unfair to say that someone doesn't support gay rights because they oppose marriage (but support full civil unions). And laughing off my position as nothing more than supporting second class citizenship is unfair and flat out rude, too.

Well hello there.

@ anyone that thinks this is even close to being the same. Unreal.

By the way, if civil unions are "second class," what are gay citizens today?

[CubOB]

I've already explained myself, and offered an apology since it seemed to me that a lack of context on my part led to you getting the wrong end of the stick.

[JSojourner]

I am all-too-familiar with option one and it's nothing I enjoy.  But let me offer this to anyone thinking about marriage and "falling in love".

Falling in love -- that walking on air feeling -- is amazing and wonderful.  But it doesn't last, not even in the best of marriages.  Because it's the kind of love that is a feeling.

Screwing your brains out is amazing.  Especially in marriage.  But sometimes, due to medication or illness, it just doesn't happen.

So what do you really want out of love and life?  This is me being much too vulnerable or open in a public forum.

I had surgery some years ago that, for a brief recovery period, rendered me unable to -- errr --- clean myself after going to the bathroom.  What could this possibly have to do with love or marriage?  Well...someone had to do it.  My wife, who I grumble and complain about too much, showed me what REAL love is.  If you laugh or scoff -- you just don't get it.

When you're dating and you think you're in love...even if you're sexually active and you are loving every minute of it...ask yourself these questions --- 

"Is this someone who will take care of me in the most personal, embarrassing situations...and do so in such a way as to wash away any anxiety or guilt I feel about it?"

"Is this someone I can sit on a park bench and hold hands with after 60 years of marriage?"

"Does this person know that love is a behavior, not a feeling or an emotion?"

That's why I voted for sexless love.  I won't lie or whitewash it.  I wish we had the love and were screwing like minxes.  We're not ready to be set adrift on any ice floes just yet so maybe, when medical and physical circumstances change, we can resume the frenetic pace of shagging that once caused much loss of sleep and occasional backaches!

But if not, I think I am pretty okay with that.  Because someone loves me in the most sacrificial and amazing way.

(Though I confess, I wish she had bought soda and booze at the store this evening.  What the hell?)

[Torie]

Phil, I was not characterizing your positions. I was raising generic questions. If you favor the same rights and duties, including federal benefits, then more power to you. That position is usual for those who want to "protect" the exclusivity of the moniker for heteros.

I still don't quite know why you think the moniker is important exactly, but that is OK.

Addendum: Phil I have never posted, and don't believe, and reject, the notion that you are a homophobe or have any particular animus to gays.  I want to make that as clear as I humanly can.

[Keystone Phil]

Addendum: Phil I have never posted, and don't believe, and reject, the notion that you are a homophobe or have any particular animus to gays.  I want to make that as clear as I humanly can.

That's all I ask. The discussion of why I don't support gay marriage was not the topic here and since I've gone on, at length, in the past with that type of stuff, I'd rather not go into it again.

[RI]

I am all-too-familiar with option one and it's nothing I enjoy.  But let me offer this to anyone thinking about marriage and "falling in love".

Falling in love -- that walking on air feeling -- is amazing and wonderful.  But it doesn't last, not even in the best of marriages.  Because it's the kind of love that is a feeling.

Screwing your brains out is amazing.  Especially in marriage.  But sometimes, due to medication or illness, it just doesn't happen.

So what do you really want out of love and life?  This is me being much too vulnerable or open in a public forum.

I had surgery some years ago that, for a brief recovery period, rendered me unable to -- errr --- clean myself after going to the bathroom.  What could this possibly have to do with love or marriage?  Well...someone had to do it.  My wife, who I grumble and complain about too much, showed me what REAL love is.  If you laugh or scoff -- you just don't get it.

When you're dating and you think you're in love...even if you're sexually active and you are loving every minute of it...ask yourself these questions --- 

"Is this someone who will take care of me in the most personal, embarrassing situations...and do so in such a way as to wash away any anxiety or guilt I feel about it?"

"Is this someone I can sit on a park bench and hold hands with after 60 years of marriage?"

"Does this person know that love is a behavior, not a feeling or an emotion?"

That's why I voted for sexless love.  I won't lie or whitewash it.  I wish we had the love and were screwing like minxes.  We're not ready to be set adrift on any ice floes just yet so maybe, when medical and physical circumstances change, we can resume the frenetic pace of shagging that once caused much loss of sleep and occasional backaches!

But if not, I think I am pretty okay with that.  Because someone loves me in the most sacrificial and amazing way.

(Though I confess, I wish she had bought soda and booze at the store this evening.  What the hell?)

I applaude you, JSojourner. You have a great, mature perspective on this.

[Platypus]

FWIW, Marriage is a carry-over of patriachal hegemony forcing heteronormativity down society's throats through the organs of authority from birth. Queers should be fighting for the destruction of the religious, dominant, unequal and aggressive 'tradition' of marriage, not seeking to meekly follow the perceived superior system of marriage.

*Must...fight....inner...socialist!*

[CubOB]

Well yes - if that was a realistic choice then I'd support that too. As far as I'm concerned everyone should have a marriage, OR everyone should get a civil union.

[TeePee4Prez]

I must say the question was VERY ambiguous.  Of course I want love.  But I enjoy sex and sometimes going through a lot of motions can be a pain in the ass.

[Gustaf]

Einzige returns, I see.

I hope for your own sake that you will realize your mistakes at some point. For the time being, I will restrict myself to pointing out that drugging some weirdo-girl and posting pictures of it on the internet isn't really impressive. Get a real life...