Kerry : Tora Bora reference

[The Duke]

I favor full enforcement of immigration laws.  Every time I see a step in that direction, it pleases me.  I have every right to favor the detainment of all suspected Visa violators and every right to favor the detainment of only certain groups of Visa violators, seeing as that partial detainment is a step towards the full goal.  I also have every right to understand that the government must prioritize its suspects, and not spend the bulk of its resources chasiung Mexican day laborers when the threat is from Arab and Muslim foreigners who (like many of the hijackers on 9/11) had violated their Visas.  What would the reaction be from this country if the government had allowed thousands of people who are here illegally in violation of their Visas to continue about their day and as a result even one of them launches a terrorist attack?

Millions of people all over the country are wrongfully arrested.  They are given due process and set free, just as these Visa violators were.

Every sane person supports racial prfiling at this point.  Anyone who doesn't has some kind of suicide complex.

[Donovan]

I favor full enforcement of immigration laws.  Every time I see a step in that direction, it pleases me.  I have every right to favor the detainment of all suspected Visa violators and every right to favor the detainment of only certain groups of Visa violators, seeing as that partial detainment is a step towards the full goal.  I also have every right to understand that the government must prioritize its suspects, and not spend the bulk of its resources chasiung Mexican day laborers when the threat is from Arab and Muslim foreigners who (like many of the hijackers on 9/11) had violated their Visas.  What would the reaction be from this country if the government had allowed thousands of people who are here illegally in violation of their Visas to continue about their day and as a result even one of them launches a terrorist attack?

Millions of people all over the country are wrongfully arrested.  They are given due process and set free, just as these Visa violators were.

Every sane person supports racial prfiling at this point.  Anyone who doesn't has some kind of suicide complex.

Well, first let me point out the hijackers of 9/11 were not in violation of their Visas.

Second, now that you proudly admit your bigotry I think I have made my case; That you have to be a bigot to support Bush in this policy. You have made my case very clear.

Sanity is not being parinoid about all Arab Americans, that is called Stupidity. Just like the idiots that killed Arabs and Indians on 9/12/01.

I am fine with you thinking that illegal detainment and abuse of power by Government Officials is OK so long as it is done to people based on race only and not your and family.

You have every right to be a bigot and think that Arabs are all a threat to Americans and planning to kill you. I just wanted people on this forum to see that is the way you think that basis for your reasoning. Thanks for making my case.

Now let us not hope that a White Guy kills a bunch of people in terorist attack, oh wait, what about Timothy McVeigh?

[The Duke]

I favor full enforcement of immigration laws.  Every time I see a step in that direction, it pleases me.  I have every right to favor the detainment of all suspected Visa violators and every right to favor the detainment of only certain groups of Visa violators, seeing as that partial detainment is a step towards the full goal.  I also have every right to understand that the government must prioritize its suspects, and not spend the bulk of its resources chasiung Mexican day laborers when the threat is from Arab and Muslim foreigners who (like many of the hijackers on 9/11) had violated their Visas.  What would the reaction be from this country if the government had allowed thousands of people who are here illegally in violation of their Visas to continue about their day and as a result even one of them launches a terrorist attack?

Millions of people all over the country are wrongfully arrested.  They are given due process and set free, just as these Visa violators were.

Every sane person supports racial prfiling at this point.  Anyone who doesn't has some kind of suicide complex.

Well, first let me point out the hijackers of 9/11 were not in violation of their Visas.

Second, now that you proudly admit your bigotry I think I have made my case; That you have to be a bigot to support Bush in this policy. You have made my case very clear.

Sanity is not being parinoid about all Arab Americans, that is called Stupidity. Just like the idiots that killed Arabs and Indians on 9/12/01.

I am fine with you thinking that illegal detainment and abuse of power by Government Officials is OK so long as it is done to people based on race only and not your and family.

You have every right to be a bigot and think that Arabs are all a threat to Americans and planning to kill you. I just wanted people on this forum to see that is the way you think that basis for your reasoning. Thanks for making my case.

Now let us not hope that a White Guy kills a bunch of people in terorist attack, oh wait, what about Timothy McVeigh?

First of all, the FBI already does profiling of people it thinks might be skinhead wackjobs, and I support this profiling as well.  Still think the government and I are just out to get Arabs?  Suspect profiling is not racism, its good police work.  Any one with a brain knows that you do profiles of suspects, and the suspect profile for an Al-Qaeda memebr probably includes being Moslem.

As foir the 9/11 hijackers, actually they did violate their Visas.  In fact, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Satam al-Suqami were guilty of the EXACT violation all those Arabs were rounded up for post-9/11.  Get your facts traight.

[Donovan]

There actually is a difference beween violating a Visa and violating  "some aspect of immigration U.S. laws".

You also would not be able to even obtain that information if Bush had his way because he opposed the 9/11 commission.

Second, comparing all Arabs to the same catagory as "Wacko Skinheads" is another example of your narrow minded bigoted way of thinking.

Third, find me ONE immigrant that has not violated at least ONE of the thousands of immigration laws and Visa regualtions?

Finally, if it truly is that the Visa violators are indeed the terrorists, then they should be arresting them, not people that didn't have Visa violations and just happen to be Arab like they did with the Arabs in my Community.

How would you feel if the government terrorized your family, locked you up and accused you of 12 crimes they KNEW were a lie, and keep you locked up for some silly law for 16 months until you confessed to a major crime you didn't commit? How would you feel if your wife and children were not given food, clothing, shelter, and support while you were detained?

Does at least, in your warped sense of Justice, the 3 year-old boy that is as much a US citizen as you and I deserve the right to food, clothing, and shelter while his dad is locked up for two years on pending charges?

What part of "Equality for All" are you unclear about?

[The Duke]

There actually is a difference beween violating a Visa and violating  "some aspect of immigration U.S. laws".

Yes, and the two who overstayed their Visas were, duh, in violation of their Visas.

You also would not be able to even obtain that information if Bush had his way because he opposed the 9/11 commission.

So what?  If you want to argue with Bush, write him a letter.  For now, you’re arguing with me.

Second, comparing all Arabs to the same catagory as "Wacko Skinheads" is another example of your narrow minded bigoted way of thinging.

I didn’t say all Arabs are equal to skinhead nutjobs.  Here is what was actually said:

Now let us not hope that a White Guy kills a bunch of people in terorist attack, oh wait, what about Timothy McVeigh?

First of all, the FBI already does profiling of people it thinks might be skinhead wackjobs.

You wondered aloud what the FBI would do to catch white terrorists, implying that they didn’t profile white terrorists and this was a sign of racism.  I pointed out that you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.

As for your new line of attack, that I compared Arabs to skinheads, wrong.  The whole point of profiling is to narrow a target population down to increase the likelihood of catching a terrorist.  Knowing someone’s ethnicity is Arab is important for profiling Al Qaeda.  It is necessary but not sufficient.  Knowing that someone has a buzzed head is necessary, but not sufficient, for profiling the McVeigh’s of the world.

Third, find me ONE immigrant that has not violated at least ONE of the thousands of immigration laws and Visa regualtions?

Most immigrants do not violate their Visas, but that isn’t relevant to the conversation.  We rounded up a string of Visa violators, well within our rights as a country, and detained them for perfectly legitimate questioning.

Finally, if it truly is that the Visa violators are indeed the terrorists, then they should be arresting them, not people that didn't have Visa violations and just happen to be Arab like they did with the Arabs in my Community.

Visa violators are not necessarily terrorists, nor are terrorists necessarily Visa violators, but if you have a fake or expired Visa from a high risk Middle Eastern country, you are a likely individual to be profiled and you should be.

Second, the trouble with terrorism is that this one crime you can’t wait on.  Once some one sets off a dirty bomb or suitcase nuke it’s a little late to press charges.  It would be laughable for the FBI to have pressed charges posthumously against Mohammed Atta.

How would you feel if the government terrorized your family, locked you up and accused you of 12 crimes they KNEW were a lie, and keep you locked up for some silly law for 16 months until you confessed to a major crime you didn't commit? How would you feel if your wife and children were not given food, clothing, shelter, and support while you were detained?

If I was in violation of federal immigration laws, what room would I have to complain?

Does at least, in your warped sense of Justice, the 3 year-old boy that is as much a US citizen as you and I deserve the right to food, clothing, and shelter while his dad is locked up for two years on pending charges?

The child receives AFDC benefits under US law..

What part of "Equality for All" are you unclear about?

Why is that in quotes?

[Donovan]

Sorry you are completely wrong.

In my community, here is what happened.

Sammi Omar was sitting at his apartment at the when the Government one early morning barged into his house, scaring his children and wife. They took him away, 300 miles to Boise. They put him in tiny cell isolated with a tiny window.

The government spent $140,000 on the planning and operation of the arrest. They made up Visa violation charges to hold him. While they held him, they created numerous other charges against him. Including knowing and contacting terrorist Usama Bin Laudin. The President of the University condemned him. The media reported as face that he violated his Visa, and conspired with Bin Laudin.

What was their evidence? Little, they had a phone call and pictures on the internet the government said. The Pictures were on his computer of the Twin Towers that were downloaded when he visited a newspaper site about what happened. The phone call was of his wife saying how she felt it odd that they would have sandals with the American Flag, and that walking on the Flag was disgraceful to the flag.

His family was not given financial support, as you state, it was not given. The boys survived on the goodwill of the surrounding Arab community.

After 2 years, he was able to go to trial. He was found NOT GUILTY, by a jury of his peers in the second most conservative state in the Union, Idaho, and Home of the Aryan Nations.

He was found NOT guilty on all counts of VISA violations and on all terror related charges.

This is not some story I read, this happened in my community. I know that the boys were not given US aid, because I was there, I talked to them, saw them, held them. I know this guy was not guilty. Nevertheless, the Government spent over $250,000 to try to nail a good member of the community, which not only vocally condemned the 9/11 attacks but organized the community and raised thousands to go the victims of 9/11. This was man that did NOTHING wrong, violated NO law, and Federal Government knew that the whole time.

And after all this did they let the poor man go back and be with his family? HELL NO! They revoked his families Visas, send them back across the ocean, and made up more charges of VISA fraud and kept him in jail even longer.

I know this not from reading, I know this because it happened in my community in an area I was elected to represent.  What I later found out was this same thing was happening all over the country, everywhere against Muslims and Arabs. Visa laws are not black and white rules. They are very subjective, and you can twist the wording all you want enough to use that an excuse to detain them, and detain them for a long time.

This man didn't deserve this. Moreover, even if someone did violate some minor VISA regulation, it is not justification for 2 years of harassment, imprisonment, and emotional torture, anymore than person deserves to be bashed in the back of the head for spitting on the sidewalk.

The punishment should fit the crime.

Holding and detaining someone because they are Arab is a crime. Why aren't you asking for justice against this?

Again, what part of "Equality for All" do you not understand?

[The Duke]

No one was detained for being Arab.  They were held on Visa violations.  Simply because the charge is not borne out does not mean it was a falsified charge.  People of all races are wrongfully arrested everyday.

I didn't say AFDC benefits were recieved, I said the children were entitled to benefits.  If no AFDC benefits were recieved, then the behavior of the government was not in line with the law.

Again, why is "Equality for All" in qutoes?

[Donovan]

No one was detained for being Arab.  

Well, you go right ahead and believe that in your fantasy world Mr. Ford. Discrimination doesn't exist in the United States. People are not detained for being Arab. People are not killed for being Black. And Gays are not denied marriage. What a wonderful world you live in. Must be nice to be a white, heterosexual, rich, male huh?

Take Care.

[The Duke]

No one was detained for being Arab.  

Well, you go right ahead and believe that in your fantasy world Mr. Ford. Discrimination doesn't exist in the United States. People are not detained for being Arab. People are not killed for being Black. And Gays are not denied marriage. What a wonderful world you live in. Must be nice to be a white, heterosexual, rich, male huh?

Take Care.

When did I disclose my ethnicity, gender, or income in this debate?

This is so typical of the left to claim racism, classism, or sexism any tinme they lose an argument, building upm their little straw men instead of accepting reality.  You have been caught in close to a dozen falsehoods and outright lies in thei debate by both me and others, and now you can't stand the heat.

[freedomburns]

Anyway it is nice to be a rich white male heterosexual professional contributing member of the ruling class patriachal elite.  Oh yes.  It feels so nice.  Before I tear down the dominant paradigm and rebuild society for the grassroots up, can I bask in the warm glow of my divine right for a minute?  Just of few glorius seconds more?  Must we rush off to some PC utopia of idealistic moralism and enlighened multiculturalism?  Whats so bad about facing up to our duty to shoulder the burdon of our birthright?  Our duty to show the wogs the way to the promised land of freedom.  The way of carefree plastic consumerism.  The way is clear.  We must educate the poor unwashed masses into a better way.

[The Duke]

Anyway it is nice to be a rich white male heterosexual professional contributing member of the ruling class patriachal elite.  Oh yes.  It feels so nice.  Before I tear down the dominant paradigm and rebuild society for the grassroots up, can I bask in the warm glow of my divine right for a minute?  Just of few glorius seconds more?  Must we rush off to some PC utopia of idealistic moralism and enlighened multiculturalism?  Whats so bad about facing up to our duty to shoulder the burdon of our birthright?  Our duty to show the wogs the way to the promised land of freedom.  The way of carefree plastic consumerism.  The way is clear.  We must educate the poor unwashed masses into a better way.

Feeling uppity today?

I was just pissed at this guy who won't argue his points and just calls people racist if they don't agree with him.  You've always had the guts to defend your beliefs legitimately, freedomburns, I respect that.  Guys like Donovan just tick me off, though.

[freedomburns]

Or maybe he is right and he really just pushed your buttons.  I don't think you are a racist, but we have to be careful how we argue the positions that we hold.  As a person born of some privlege, I feel a duty to not lobby to strongly for those with less privlege to be allowed the loss of civil liberties, detention without access to family or counsel (in some cases), selective questioning by government agents, selective investigation by local law enforcement, harrassement, and any other kind of surveillance or unwanted attention whether government sanctioned or not.  I just know that if we ask them to give up their civil liberties this time, it will be me next time.  The Bill of Rights is like a holy gospel to be revered and upheld.  No illegal detentions, and no harrassment or racial profiling.  It is a fast stride toward facism.  I am notdown with the program.  In Orange County the local police sent out post cards to Arab Americans asking them to call in for voluntary interview and some kind of registration.

freedomburns

[Donovan]

When did I disclose my ethnicity, gender, or income in this debate?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well you did it with you statements. And sorry to say,  I looked you up and researched you on the internet. Not so hard. You are connected to the internet right now.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This is so typical of the left to claim racism, classism, or sexism any tinme they lose an argument, building upm their little straw men instead of accepting reality.  You have been caught in close to a dozen falsehoods and outright lies in thei debate by both me and others, and now you can't stand the heat.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I can take the heat just fine Mr. Ford. I am have no difficulty with it, It is you who have admitted to being frusrated.

The only thing that bothers me is that you are unwilling to accept the fact that the US government has denied due process of law to many Arabs, and been improperly detained by the government. You fail to admit that.

I don't give a crap about Visas, and if the 12 hijackers, or was that 16, or 22, I don't care, violated a Visa regulation.

What I care about is if the government is enforcing the law fairly and not doing racial profiling.

Here you state that anyone that doesn't believe in racism is insane. NO, I am not going to let fly Mr. Ford.

I am not going to let you get away either with statements that it is OK to just go after on group of people based on race.

This is the very definition of bigtry and racism. If you treat one race different than another, that is racism, look it up, it is not just me.

Are you now retracting your previous statement that you think racial profiling is OK by you?

If not, accept the fact that you are racist. Period and Good night.

[The Duke]

This is what I mean.

Donovan, you claimed that I was a lair for saying that some of the 9/11 hijackers had violated their Visas.  Then I prove that some did in fact violate their Visas.  Then you claim "I don't care about Visas".  As soon as you get hammerred on a point, you back away and revert to your default claim of racism.

Profiling is not discrimination.  Suspect profiling is an integral part of police work.  Take a look at what the suspect profile is for a serial killer, and you'll see that the profile is a white male.  If profiling was racism wouldn't it just be some Puerto Rican guy or something?  Of course, but that doesn't fit into your warped victim mentality.  So isntead of dealing honestly with issues, you lie, slander, and distort.

[shankbear]

Just hunt the damned terrorists down wherever they are and kill every one of them.  Don't discriminate...just kill them. 

[Mr. Fresh]

Feeling uppity today?

I was just pissed at this guy who won't argue his points and just calls people racist if they don't agree with him.  You've always had the guts to defend your beliefs legitimately, freedomburns, I respect that.  Guys like Donovan just tick me off, though.

I know how you feel, he was calling me a racist in another thread.

[Donovan]

Mr. Ford,

You are absoultly correct that I was wrong about the issue of the Terrorists attacking the US on 9/11 had violated their Visas. That was stupid of me not to double check on that one line in my argument. I concede to you that point. I am sure hijacking a plane alone would be a violation of a Visa.

But that is not my argument. There are more facts to the argument that we are discussing.

Denying civil liberties to people because they violated a regulation of their Visa does NOT justify treating them like a terrorist. It does not.

Second "Racial Profiling" is "Racist". As a matter of fact, it has the word Racial in it. Using Racial Profiling is ILLEGAL and immoral Mr. Ford. Further, it doesn't help you capture those responsible.

Third, you completly DENY that people are improperly imprisoned and even EXECUTED in this country because of their race. Go look up the "Innocents Project" on the internet.

The US government did destroy the lives of many Arab familes in this country that did nothing wrong. They improperly detained, charged with bogus crimes, and many were forced to leave the country. They did nothing wrong. They committed no crime. I know this because I saw it happen. It is sad to say the least. For this reason, GW Bush is going to lose the Middle Easterner vote.

What blows my mind is that you fail to see the racism, bigotry and improper treatment of minorties in this country. You will not even acknowledge that it exists. You promote and see nothing wrong with racial profiling. You deny that Blacks, Arabs, Hispanics, Gays and other minorities are treated differently then Whites in the Country. This is not an accusation Mr. Ford. This is something that you admitted to.

It surprises me that you are able to even function in the state of California.

Take Care

[Donovan]

Mr. Fresh,

I don't know if you are racist or not. I just know that your jokes are offense. And letting you know. I sometime accidently say things that are racists or offensive to people, they point it out, and I either choose to correct myself or choose to continue to offend people. I don't fly off the cuff and try to deny I am not a racist.
Everyone is racist, or a bigot in one regard or another. I have a hard time not stereotyping Southerns.

I will give you credit though. You are not arguing that "racial profiling" is not racist. Which in my opinion is a big plus.

[ATFFL]

Donovan,

If the police are searching for a caucasian male suspected of rape and they stop and question me, a white male, should I complain?  I was once detained in such a situation because I looked close to a campus rapist.  They checked into my alibi, namely being in another state for all of the crimes, and let me go.

I was a victim of profiling.  I did nothing wrong, but was treated like a criminal.  I have no complaints because the police were doing their job. 

The people who violated their visas and were detained did commit a crime.  The police arrested them on suspicion of a visa violation and what do you know, they did violate their visa.  Enforcing the law is not criminal, not enforcing it is.

The moral of the story is that if you are arab you should not violate your visa.  SHould the INS round up all visa violators?  Yes.  And they have improved cracking down on all visa violators.  But when theyt started the crackdown should they have focused on Europeans or people from the same nations as teh torrorists?

[??????????]

The guy that was arrested may have been a terrorist. I commend the government for arresting him. Islam is to much of a threat to this world to take lightly. I strongly believe in using profiling and detention as means of stopping terror. Call it racist or whatever you'd like. I call it survival against the 'Religion of Death'.

[Donovan]

Donovan,

If the police are searching for a caucasian male suspected of rape and they stop and question me, a white male, should I complain?  I was once detained in such a situation because I looked close to a campus rapist.  They checked into my alibi, namely being in another state for all of the crimes, and let me go.

I was a victim of profiling.  I did nothing wrong, but was treated like a criminal.  I have no complaints because the police were doing their job. 

The people who violated their visas and were detained did commit a crime.  The police arrested them on suspicion of a visa violation and what do you know, they did violate their visa.  Enforcing the law is not criminal, not enforcing it is.

The moral of the story is that if you are arab you should not violate your visa.  SHould the INS round up all visa violators?  Yes.  And they have improved cracking down on all visa violators.  But when theyt started the crackdown should they have focused on Europeans or people from the same nations as teh torrorists?

Mr. Tedrick,
In many cases, they did not violate their Visas. It was proven that were innocent. In the case of the man in my Community, he was detained for about 2 years. They would not let him even go home. He didn't commit a crime and was held for two years on bogus charges. Many other Arabs confessed to crimes so that they could get off on lesser sentences because they didn't have the resources to fend off the $250,000 legal assault by the US government.
You as taxpayer should be upset that they are spending $250,000 a person to prosecute people that are not guilty of a crime.


But when they started the crackdown should they have focused on Europeans or people from the same nations as teh torrorists?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Second,
If you are going after people on Visa Charges, you should start with people committing the biggest crimes. We don't stop crime by first harassing all the Blacks, then the Hispanics, then the Asians. No, we start looking for the Murderers, then the abductors, then the Rapists. Start with most serious crimes. Not the color of skin. 

Moreover, you know as well as I do that they are not going to even start after the White Visa violators.

Third,

If you are going to go after people who are terrorists, you should go after people that are able to organize the crime. Instead, the US government goes after young Arabic men 18-35. Sorry, but young Arabic men on college campuses don't have the time, money, or resources to coordinate a terrorist attack on the United States. I will tell you who does. They are wealthy and have diplomatic immunity, and many were flown out of here by the FBI and the President after September 11th.

Harassing and detaining people 18-35 that are Arabs and not bothering anybody only hurts this country. What happens is when you take those Arabs away when they didn't do anything wrong, their wives call and write home to their fathers, uncles, and brothers. They tell them how the government is harassing them, how they one night were swept away. They say how the children won't stop crying and they don't know what to do. They don't know how to get around town, or to get food. They don't know what their rights are or when they will see their husband again.
All these communities in the Middle East get these reports from 10,000's of family members in the United States. They know that their family members are innocent. Therefore, they grow very angry at the United States. Then what happens in is that the entire Middle East finds out about this and decides that they don't like the US and are less likely to assist the United States in helping to fight real terrorists. This places people, like our boys and girls in uniform over there, in grave danger. Terrorists and others that hate the US are emboldened to commit crimes and violent acts against the US and their allies. They feel vindicated the US likes to harass the innocent and victimize children and women.

I suggest if we want to be treated well in Iraq, and elsewhere in the Middle East, that we treat their citizens as innocent until proven guilty. That we not beat them while in prison. That we not assume that all Arabs are evil until proven otherwise. That we give them the respect that we give all others.

If they violate their Visa then punish them according to their crime, or deport them, don't treat them like a terrorist. There is a reason why the Middle East hates the US. I believe part of that reason is the arrogance that we have about others, and the blatant disrespect we give them at times.

Take Care

[ATFFL]

You are clearly correct that they will nto start in on white visa violators.  You cannot start what is already finished.  The INS has mostly cleared its books in visa violators.  They knew they had to buckled down and look good before they all lost their jobs.  WHile there are  certainly still some people here who have violated their visas, they ar efar les sin number now than in a long, long time.

Where is the evidence that most people who were arrested and detained were not in violation of their visa?  This runs counter to the evidence you yourself posted earlier.

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

[The Duke]

You are clearly correct that they will nto start in on white visa violators.  You cannot start what is already finished.  The INS has mostly cleared its books in visa violators.  They knew they had to buckled down and look good before they all lost their jobs.  WHile there are  certainly still some people here who have violated their visas, they ar efar les sin number now than in a long, long time.

Where is the evidence that most people who were arrested and detained were not in violation of their visa?  This runs counter to the evidence you yourself posted earlier.

What is the case with the man in your community?  You have a link to any details?  I would love to read it.

Forget his guy, Tredrick.  He'll just name call and ignore facts.  You could go insane talking to someone like this for too long.

[The Dowager Mod]

When bush gets it right he's the greatest leader since Hannibal.
when he's wrong it's his subordinates fault.

[The Duke]

When bush gets it right he's the greatest leader since Hannibal.
when he's wrong it's his subordinates fault.

Actually, I've done nothing but defend the decisions made at Tora Bora no matter who made them.