California hopes to close large deficit by cutting taxes for large corporations (user search)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 27, 2024, 07:31:21 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Other Elections - Analysis and Discussion
  Gubernatorial/State Elections (Moderators: Brittain33, GeorgiaModerate, Gass3268, Virginiá, Gracile)
  California hopes to close large deficit by cutting taxes for large corporations (search mode)
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: California hopes to close large deficit by cutting taxes for large corporations  (Read 3802 times)
Beet
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,916


« on: February 16, 2009, 12:21:22 AM »

This is all really just "whistling around the graveyard", regardless of what you think of the plan.

Without huge fundamental changes to California's spending and taxing ways, the state is insolvent and will be insolvent in the future.  This year's stimulus bailout will probably get it through 2009, but I wouldn't be planning on similar such assistance in the future.

In all honesty, I would advise anyone who's presently there to get the hell out, because that is one state where I would not want to be when TSHTF.

So what would you do O great one? Repeal prop 13 immediately? Probably way too late for that.

Repeal Prop 13.  Start slicing and dicing through your massive public employment sector by cutting jobs, salaries, benefits or all of the above (that creation of California during the 1960s nearly bankrupted the state during mere 'recessions').  Cut the various "free" programs (welfare, health care, etc.) that California provides.  Although the business tax cuts proposed here are complete crap, taxes must be dealt with a way that encourages the middle class and businesses to return (I don't know the code that well, but I do know it - if I ran the state, I'd come up with ideas).  Although I won't address it now, California's infrastructure and energy system is a joke - there's definitely something to be tackled there.

This is for starters...

And lastly, it's time to start deporting the illegals.  They are a menace to the state's public assistance network (esp. education) and will likely be one heck of a civil unrest problem in the upcoming years, while adding little of value to the society at large.

Yes, I know.  It's tough.  And tougher than I've ever been in the past with regards to illegals, not to mention the other stuff.  But one of these days, in general, we're going to have to face reexamination of government and what it can and cannot provide (not to mention what it should).  We're trying to punt the question right now. 

I just would prefer not to see us have to answer these questions facing people outside unemployed, starving, angry, and everything that goes with that.

Yes, I know I'm starting to sound like a bit of a kook or something, maybe.  So be it.  The signs are far too clear.

Well I am glad you think prop 13 should be repealed as many of your ideology are too set in their way to admit what a disaster it is. I agree with you that cuts need to be made but taxes need to be raised too, preferably on the insanely rich. And no they won't leave California just because of that, its just way too nice here and they don't choose where they live based on tax rates. And if we have tax cuts it should be for the middle class and small businesses, although I doubt we can afford any. As for illegals, I would remind you that they do a lot of menial labor in California. If those jobs don't exist they will leave, but as long as the jobs are there they will stay. And their kids have just as much a right to an education as anybody else. I wish they were all legal and would pay income and payroll taxes, but honestly it wouldn't add up to much. They already do pay sales taxes so its not fair to say they don't pay anything. Also why would they cause civil unrest? They would just move on to somewhere with jobs, in fact many employed in the construction sector already have. California has many problems but I don't see illegals as being one of them, because somebody needs to do our sh**t work right?

If what Sam says is anything close to right, we could see a re-institution of the draft just to enforce martial law at home. Basically it'll be the end of this country as we know it.
Logged
Beet
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,916


« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 01:23:02 AM »

Huh? That didn't even occur during the great depression..why would we suddenly need that now?

Well it did on a smaller scale, if you look at the Bonus army disaster. But it's true that Americans were awfully quiescent during the Depression-- and maybe we'll be again. There was a good deal of ethnic diversity back then as well, and Californians have been living with each other for a long time-- even the illegals.

Anyway, I'm not predicting that we'll need that, but it seems like Sam is. Especially if he thinks it'd be easier to deport millions of illegals than allow them to stay. The former action itself would practically require a domestic military deployment.
Logged
Beet
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,916


« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 01:26:47 AM »

Huh? That didn't even occur during the great depression..why would we suddenly need that now?

Well it did on a smaller scale, if you look at the Bonus army disaster. But it's true that Americans were awfully quiescent during the Depression-- and maybe we'll be again. There was a good deal of ethnic diversity back then as well, and Californians have been living with each other for a long time-- even the illegals.

Anyway, I'm not predicting that we'll need that, but it seems like Sam is. Especially if he thinks it'd be easier to deport millions of illegals than allow them to stay. The former action itself would practically require a domestic military deployment.

I don't see why illegals would cause problems for no reason. They came to California to work and if there isn't any work, they will leave. It's those people who think society owes them something who are more dangerous.

I would tend to agree.
Logged
Beet
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,916


« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 05:43:47 PM »

Part of the problem in recent years has been this idea that we can fund government based on the backs of the insanely rich.  It can't work long-term and since the long-term is now, it won't work now either.

There is no choice but to fund a huge portion of the budget on the backs of the very rich (depends how you define insanely) depending on the distribution of income. The portion of income taxes paid by the top 1% has always climbed when income inequality has climbed, and vice versa. In reality, taxes can come from whereever income comes from in the economy. In a more egalitarian economy economically, the portion of the tax base composed of the very rich will naturally decline. A larger problem than whether the higher or lower incomes bear a greater tax burden is the share of taxes that are dependent on highly cyclical money streams such as capital gains or property.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Of course, but that does not mean taxes on the very rich could not (or will not) be raised further. It was in 1932 under Hoover that the maximum tax bracket began its upward surge, at first from 25% to 63%. This was one of the largest tax increases in modern history. And it was not repealed by Roosevelt, who had his own budget protection concerns.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, there is a difference between actually moving your life, your activities, and your family to another country and changing one's place of income or residence for legal purposes, yet still spending a large amount of time away from one's 'legal residence'. The latter could be called tax evasion. With regard to movements between states... well, that is one of the advantages of federal action over state action. One commenter during the debates on the stimulus mentioned that states should not use the money they receive to try and attract businesses if that would only mean businesses moving away from other states- it would not serve national purposes.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Hardly 'easy'. Going after a massive group of people, even illegals, would be extremely costly and almost certainly mistaken. In the 1920s anti-immigration legislation was passed, but in the 1930s a sharp drop-off in net immigration occured without any additional xenophobia from the government-- for obvious reasons. I think this is what sbane is saying. If the jobs aren't there "they'll leave." That's exactly what happened in the 1930s-- millions left (some for the Soviet Union, of all places), millions simply never came.

Trying to forcibly remove people from the labor force on the basis of social class (which, basically, legal status is one form of) is also a pretty dangerous precedent, particularly in depressionary economic times. There are always some people at the bottom of the totem pole. Mass deportation is a recipe for complete meltdown of civil order, and it only possibly (emphasize possibly) makes sense if you assume civil order is going to melt down anyway-- but there is no evidence that such an outcome is inevitable right now.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

The amount they pay in taxes in no way makes up for the amount they take up in state services.[/quote]

Which is a function of both their illegal status and their low income. Due to the former, they pay taxes at a much lower rate than the general population. And due to the latter, they are in lower brackets, have less money to spend, and are less likely to have preexisting health insurance or a cushion for other social services. But trying to remove them would be even more costly in the states where they actually represent a substantial enough portion of the population to make a significant impact on state expenditures. The 'solution'- though it is really only the least bad of many bad options- bring them into some sort of legalized status so that they may pay taxes at higher rates, and impose a fee for this legalization to give a one-time boost to revenues (and still allow those unwilling to pay the fee or unable to, to return to Mexico of their own volition if they cannot find work).

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Why should the difference between being a citizen and being a non-citizen be the difference between a rioter and a bum? Try to drag them out of their dwellings and dump them across the border would guarantee massive unrest. Not doing so, I fail to see how such unrest would necessarily occur, particularly only within the illegal populations. If things really got that bad, you would see unrest spread among legal populations too.
Logged
Pages: [1]  
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.029 seconds with 13 queries.