When the Vatican gets it right...

[12th Doctor]

http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp

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First off, it is Catholic Answers, not "catholic.com".  Secondly, while Catholic Answers is generally a great scource for information, it is also extremely orthodox in its general outlook.  Do you want to quote a site that still preaches that the Catholic sacraments are the only true path to salvation, when the Church officially abandoned that idea 40 years ago?

are you saying catholic.com misquoted Pope Pius XII?  if not, sounds like to me Pius XII stated belief that all of us are descended from Adam and Eve is not a option for Christians.

in any case, do you believe we are all descended from Adam?

This is what happens when fools take people out of context.  Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam.  But, he was saying that to contradict the notion that anyone one human, Christian or non-Christian, is more advanced, or greater than any other (a notion you would most likely disagree with).  Basically, he was denying Nazism, genocide, etc, and the notion that there is such a thing as an "elect" (from birth) and that should be used to discriminate against other human beings.

It is one of the many statements that Pius made against Nazi practices that people ignore, or bash for not having been "clear enough".  It is a metaphor, for saying that we are all the same people in God's eyes.

[7,052,770]

that has no scriptural basis at all.

well obviously.  The people who wrote the Bible had no concept of ideas like that.

[© tweed]

that has no scriptural basis at all.

well obviously.  The people who wrote the Bible had no concept of ideas like that.

and a key basis of Christianity is that the Bible is the word of God...

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

if you don't believe that Adam & Eve existed, doesn't the whole system start to break down?

good question, but I think a simpler and more straightforward question is: 

Does denying that current-day-humanity descended from Adam contradict the bible's own interpretation of the story of Adam?

No, because it's just a story (and stupid arbitrary sexist story at that).  The lessons of that story are what's important, not whether or not it actually happened.

Here is just one example of the bible's own interpretation of the Genesis-Adam story:

Acts 17:26-27 "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."

Therefore, the New Testament interprets the Genesis's story of Adam as it were a literal historical account, which should come as no surprise because that is exactly what Genesis claims it is - a historical account.  Also note that the Acts' statement does NOT say "from one man and one woman", but simply says "from one man", thus backing up Genesis' account that Eve was formed out of Adam.  

As far as I am concerned, that's the end of discussion!  And I am perfectly happy and willing to be one of the few remaining Christians who agree with the bible's own interpretation of itself.

[12th Doctor]

Like I said, I use Catholic Answers as a source, but they have an agenda too, so I always make sure to double check what they say.  95% of the time, there info is not at all misleading.

[© tweed]

As far as I am concerned, that's the end of discussion!  

well, alright, but Genesis as a historical account flies in the face of basically all scientific data ever collected remotely pertaining to the issue.  you can think that if you like, but closing yourself off to any and all evidence to the contrary...

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam.

then I am confused with the point of this whole thread.  Seems to me, believing that we all came from Adam is the antithesis of evolution.

[© tweed]

jmf, if we are all descendants of Adam, why does the scientific consensus point in another direction?  is God trying to trick us?

[12th Doctor]

Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam.

then I am confused with the point of this whole thread.  Seems to me, believing that we all came from Adam is the antithesis of evolution.

Wow.  We aren't only hear what we want to hear, are we?

[12th Doctor]

And so I will say again, Pius, in Humani Generis was attacking the moral implications of ideas that some have drawn out of evolutionary theory... eugenics being a big one.  He was not launching a direct assault on evolution.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam.

then I am confused with the point of this whole thread.  Seems to me, believing that we all came from Adam is the antithesis of evolution.

Wow.  We aren't only hear what we want to hear, are we?

Am I?

I must have missed the post that reconciled evolution with the belief we all came from a single person (Adam).

Can you kindly point me to that post?

(Or are you saying that Pius did NOT believe that we are all descended from Adam?!)

[12th Doctor]

Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam.

then I am confused with the point of this whole thread.  Seems to me, believing that we all came from Adam is the antithesis of evolution.

Wow.  We aren't only hear what we want to hear, are we?

Am I?

I must have missed the post that reconciled evolution with the belief we all came from a single person (Adam).

Can you kindly point me to that post?

(Or are you saying that Pius did NOT believe that we are all descended from Adam?!)

You were one of those children that had a really hard time understanding Animal Farm and The Chronicles are Narnia weren't you?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam.

then I am confused with the point of this whole thread.  Seems to me, believing that we all came from Adam is the antithesis of evolution.

Wow.  We aren't only hear what we want to hear, are we?

Am I?

I must have missed the post that reconciled evolution with the belief we all came from a single person (Adam).

Can you kindly point me to that post?

(Or are you saying that Pius did NOT believe that we are all descended from Adam?!)

You were one of those children that had a really hard time understanding Animal Farm and The Chronicles are Narnia weren't you?

Since Supersoulty refuses to answer the question, can anyone deduce whether or not Pius XII beleived that we were all descended from a single man, who is referred to in Genesis and commonly known as "Adam"?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

As far as I am concerned, that's the end of discussion!  

well, alright, but Genesis as a historical account flies in the face of basically all scientific data ever collected remotely pertaining to the issue.  you can think that if you like, but closing yourself off to any and all evidence to the contrary...

jmf, if we are all descendants of Adam, why does the scientific consensus point in another direction?  is God trying to trick us?

I would blindly guess that it has to do with the assumptions science makes about nature and about the bible:
1) about nature - assuming everything is the result of continued natural processes
2) about the bible - assuming Adam was created within 6x24 hours of the earth (which the bible does NOT state)

[© tweed]

so, you consider "day" in Genesis to not necessarily mean ~24 hours?  because it clearly says "there was morning - the sixth day" and "by the seventh day".  the reference to a "morning" seems to point against the idea of the days actually representing protracted periods of time.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

so, you consider "day" in Genesis to not necessarily mean ~24 hours?

yeah, and that is easily provable using scripture.

1) Gen 1:1 states that the earth "became void", hinting that something may have been here prior
2) the sun and moon weren't created until the fourth day, so the mornings and evenings of the 6 days can NOT be defined by ~24hrs
3) the 7th day in Gen 2 was an eternal rest, and the Sabbath day is said to forshadow God's eternal rest that awaits the faithful (see Hebrews 3:7-4:12). This is why Genesis has a morning, but leaves out an evening for the 7th day.
4) Adam and Eve were told to REfill (replenish) the earth, hinting that something may have been here prior to Adam and Eve.  Actually, it is the EXACT same command given to Noah when he disembarked from the Ark.

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because it clearly says "there was morning - the sixth day" and "by the seventh day".  the reference to a "morning" seems to point against the idea of the days actually representing protracted periods of time.

I agree the 7 days were chronological.  But that does NOT define the length of each day.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Since Supersoulty refuses to answer the question, can anyone deduce whether or not Pius XII beleived that we were all descended from a single man, who is referred to in Genesis and commonly known as "Adam"?

why am i being greeted by silence?

Yo, granola, can you lend me a hand?

[© tweed]

nah, I have to go to work.  $8/hr!  but I'll be back around 8pm EST.  stay strong bro!

[12th Doctor]

Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam.

then I am confused with the point of this whole thread.  Seems to me, believing that we all came from Adam is the antithesis of evolution.

Wow.  We aren't only hear what we want to hear, are we?

Am I?

I must have missed the post that reconciled evolution with the belief we all came from a single person (Adam).

Can you kindly point me to that post?

(Or are you saying that Pius did NOT believe that we are all descended from Adam?!)

You were one of those children that had a really hard time understanding Animal Farm and The Chronicles are Narnia weren't you?

Since Supersoulty refuses to answer the question, can anyone deduce whether or not Pius XII beleived that we were all descended from a single man, who is referred to in Genesis and commonly known as "Adam"?

I did answer the question.  You seem to have failed to notice my answer though.  Nothing new about that.  That's why I stopped posting in our last debate.

[12th Doctor]

A couple of them after the "rediscovery" are chillingly accurate, but that is bound to happen for a couple.  What about the other 30?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Since Supersoulty refuses to answer the question, can anyone deduce whether or not Pius XII beleived that we were all descended from a single man, who is referred to in Genesis and commonly known as "Adam"?

I did answer the question.  You seem to have failed to notice my answer though.  Nothing new about that.  That's why I stopped posting in our last debate.

I can not find your answer to the question.  Do you mind posting your previous answer?

[12th Doctor]

Since Supersoulty refuses to answer the question, can anyone deduce whether or not Pius XII beleived that we were all descended from a single man, who is referred to in Genesis and commonly known as "Adam"?

I did answer the question.  You seem to have failed to notice my answer though.  Nothing new about that.  That's why I stopped posting in our last debate.

I can not find your answer to the question.  Do you mind posting your previous answer?

Perhaps you ought to read more carefully, then.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I can not find your answer to the question.  Do you mind posting your previous answer?

Perhaps you ought to read more carefully, then.

this is all that I have found:

Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam.

to which I replied:

Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam.

then I am confused with the point of this whole thread.  Seems to me, believing that we all came from Adam is the antithesis of evolution.

so, since you have stated "Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam"...how do you reconcile that statement with the theory of evolution?

[12th Doctor]

This is not for your benefit, jmf, but rather for the benefit of anyone who might read what you have to say and mistakenly think that you have a point.

I used to have alot of respect for you as a theologian, but as I have learned more, the more it has become apparent to me that you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about.  You are basically one of those people who can quote any passage of scripture, but can't grasp its meaning beyond plain text.  You are scripture what a dictionary is to literature.

This is what happens when fools take people out of context.  Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam.  But, he was saying that to contradict the notion that anyone one human, Christian or non-Christian, is more advanced, or greater than any other (a notion you would most likely disagree with).  Basically, he was denying Nazism, genocide, etc, and the notion that there is such a thing as an "elect" (from birth) and that should be used to discriminate against other human beings.

It is one of the many statements that Pius made against Nazi practices that people ignore, or bash for not having been "clear enough".  It is a metaphor, for saying that we are all the same people in God's eyes.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

This is what happens when fools take people out of context.  Yes, Pius said we are all descended from Adam.  But, he was saying that to contradict the notion that anyone one human, Christian or non-Christian, is more advanced, or greater than any other (a notion you would most likely disagree with).  Basically, he was denying Nazism, genocide, etc, and the notion that there is such a thing as an "elect" (from birth) and that should be used to discriminate against other human beings.

It is one of the many statements that Pius made against Nazi practices that people ignore, or bash for not having been "clear enough".  It is a metaphor, for saying that we are all the same people in God's eyes.

sorry, I didn't notice your statment (which I placed in red) the first time I read your post...

Supersoulty, I am having trouble reconciling your interpretation of Pius  (which I placed in red) with the actual statement of Pius:

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Sounds like Pius is stating that we are all physically descended from Adam and the original sin was actually committed by an individual Adam and it was passed through generation to all of us.

In fact, the way I read Pius XII is that he is clearly stating that the belief that we are all phyically descended from Adam is NOT an option

Is that not a fair interpretation of what Pius is saying?

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[just noticed I overwrote a previous post of mine...sorry for the confusion...I've tried to combine the elements of both]