Dumping gay marriage prop in California is getting intense

[Хahar 🤔]

Gay marriage is a stupid issue, but I really hope this fails to pass in order to stick it to the stupid fundies.

Agreed.

[Torie]

I predict it passing 51-49. Yes breaks 55% in OC and 60% in the IE. It will all hinge on LA actually.

^^^^

Actually Hispanics in the polls are voting like Anglos on this, close to even. Asians are more in favor of Prop 8 (surprising - I guess a lot are traditionalists), with blacks the most in favor. This will be decided in LA County, and to some extent will turn on turnout models. If blacks all turn out for Obama (just because in a state not in play), that might be the critical difference.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I predict it passing 51-49. Yes breaks 55% in OC and 60% in the IE. It will all hinge on LA actually.

^^^^

Actually Hispanics in the polls are voting like Anglos on this, close to even. Asians are more in favor of Prop 8 (surprising - I guess a lot are traditionalists), with blacks the most in favor. This will be decided in LA County, and to some extent will turn on turnout models. If blacks all turn out for Obama (just because in a state not in play), that might be the critical difference.

     That's good news. More Hispanics than Blacks or Asians in the state.

[The Ex-Factor]

I have a feeling that no matter which side wins there are going to be riots....

[Lincoln Republican]

Finally, the voters in California got something right, dumping same sex marriage.

About time.

My hat is off to the voters in California.

Good work.

[War on Want]

Finally, the voters in California got something right, dumping same sex marriage.

About time.

My hat is off to the voters in California.

Good work.

Is there any sane reason to dump same-sex marriage? I mean I don't care that much but I have never heard valid reasoning against it.

[Lunar]

Unfortunately for your position, the people who believe in it are gonna die off in our lifetime.

[Storebought]

Unfortunately for your position, the people who believe in it are gonna die off in our lifetime.

The black ones won't.

[Хahar 🤔]

Unfortunately for your position, the people who believe in it are gonna die off in our lifetime.

The black ones won't.

True.

The majority opposing gay marriage will certainly disappear, and fairly fast.

[Lunar]

Unfortunately for your position, the people who believe in it are gonna die off in our lifetime.

The black ones won't.

Maybe, but they're not really that numerous and younger ones are far less likely to support prop 8 I believe.

I mean, heck, the Mormon youth will still vote against gay marriage

Just saying time is on the liberal's side with this issue.

[Sam Spade]

Unfortunately for your position, the people who believe in it are gonna die off in our lifetime.

The black ones won't.

Maybe, but they're not really that numerous and younger ones are far less likely to support prop 8 I believe.

I mean, heck, the Mormon youth will still vote against gay marriage

Just saying time is on the liberal's side with this issue.

Probably.  Provided there isn't any negative fallout from legalization in other places.  And also depending on whether some civil union compromise is made generally - which could blunt moves towards full legalization.

Still trying to figure out why the California liberals/gays are trying to blame Mormons over this.  If there's one group of people who may be more organized and have more money to throw at things other than the gays, it may be the Mormons.

[Lunar]

Yeah, blaming the Mormon Church or blacks is funny.  Like one anti-Prop 8 commercial showed Mormons breaking into a lesbian couple's house, stealing their wedding rings and ripping up their marriage license.  The police needed to defend an LDS church in Southern California and racial slurs were being yelled out in some Prop 8 protests recently.

If they're trying to defend your state from discrimination, some of these gay marriage advocates might want to look at themselves first.

I don't see why the whole LDS-funding would be any different from Hollywood-funding if the tables were reversed.

[Lincoln Republican]

As the younger generation, who mostly opposed this initiative, ages, they will gradually become more and more supportive of the idea of traditional marriage, just like the other age categories, who supported this initiative.

Therefore, support for banning gay marriage will actually increase, not decrease.

[Lincoln Republican]

I have this to say to the loser protesters who don't want to accept the will of the people.

Welcome to the world of democracy.

If you don't like it, move to North Korea.

[Lunar]

Wait, what evidence is there that people who support gay marriage change their minds with time?  That's insane sir.

It seems that younger people are far more likely to be exposed to, and be comfortable with, homosexuality...

[??????????]

It seems that younger people are far more likely to be exposed to, and be comfortable with, homosexuality...

Maybe more regional then national level however.

[Lincoln Republican]

Wait, what evidence is there that people who support gay marriage change their minds with time?  That's insane sir.

It seems that younger people are far more likely to be exposed to, and be comfortable with, homosexuality...

I do not have statistical verification, but it seems reasonable to me.

The bottom line is, proposition 8, amending the California state constitution to restrict the definition of marriage to a union between a man and a woman, overriding the California Supreme Court decision that had recognized same sex marriage in California, was passed by a majority of those voting on this proposition.

[Хahar 🤔]

Wait, what evidence is there that people who support gay marriage change their minds with time?  That's insane sir.

It seems that younger people are far more likely to be exposed to, and be comfortable with, homosexuality...

I do not have statistical verification, but it seems reasonable to me.

This generally does not happen with social issues. Divorce became more acceptable with time, and the younger generation supporting it did not later reject it.

[Lunar]

Wait, what evidence is there that people who support gay marriage change their minds with time?  That's insane sir.

It seems that younger people are far more likely to be exposed to, and be comfortable with, homosexuality...

I do not have statistical verification, but it seems reasonable to me.

Ok, think about this:  Why are so many young Republicans in favor of gay marriage?  If this was an "most people will come to believe this as they age" thing, then it's a bit weird that it seems that the youth in general, regardless of partisan affiliation, are significantly more supportive of gay rights than the elderly.  And that makes sense, we've grown up with gays in our movies, our friends, and our role models since youth, homosexuality isn't as outlandish to the young.  This isn't something that's easily reversible.

Sure, young liberals might become more conservative over time, but this is 100% a separate issue, I can't imagine the logic upon which someone would move from being in favor of gay marriage to being against it.

[Sam Spade]

One other minor point:  Bad economic times often lead to conservative reaction in the spectrum of cultural affairs, not to mention a strengthening of repression.  That could change the landscape quite as much as natural population changes.

[Lunar]

One other minor point:  Bad economic times often lead to conservative reaction in the spectrum of cultural affairs, not to mention a strengthening of repression.  That could change the landscape quite as much as natural population changes.

True, but I imagine that effect will occur primarily among the non-youth. 

So it will just take longer.

[Sam Spade]

One other minor point:  Bad economic times often lead to conservative reaction in the spectrum of cultural affairs, not to mention a strengthening of repression.  That could change the landscape quite as much as natural population changes.

True, but I imagine that effect will occur primarily among the non-youth. 

So it will just take longer.

Maybe, but I wonder...  What will happen to the youth of this country when they finally get shoved out in the real world without their protective blankets?

My point is essentially this:  The youth of this country, specifically those in the 18-29 group, but in general those under 30, have unrealistically high expectations of themselves and their futures.  Probably this is because they have had ridiculously easy and pampered lives, moreso than any other generation of the past 100 years, with the possible exception of the baby boomers (and I would argue easier) due to prosperous economic times, and relative absence of societal chaos during their formative years (i.e. 1995-2007). 

This type of environment naturally leads those persons to embrace ideals and solutions without much thought as to their consequences.  What happens when the easy lives end and the consequences of the ideas start to become more important.  Right now, the youth will be relying, at least in some sense, on Obama (yep) to cover both fronts as they exit being youth.  This has a number of potentially interesting endings, and I'm curious to see where it goes.

Lastly, I doubt the youths are a world unto themselves, as you do.  The changes that occur to older, but still living generations are not immune to you.

[Nym90]

Well, I don't really agree with the assertion that people under 30 aren't affected by things like the bad economy; in fact I'd say they are much more affected by it in many respects. Issues like the spiraling cost of college, unavailability of jobs, job layoffs (since they are largely based on seniority still in many companies) etc. certainly affect young people far more than older people. Obviously it depends on the person, but I think young people now are getting less aid from their parents overall than kids 10 or 20 years ago did, largely because of the sour economy but not only because of it.

Which is part of the reason why they went so much more strongly Democratic this year than in years past. They are also more liberal on social issues, of course, but that wasn't a big factor this year.

To the extent that this generation has never had to endure such a bad economy in childhood and thus didn't get taught good values in how to survive such times, yes, they've been luckier than average.

If the economy is still just as bad in 2012, yes, they'll abandon Obama, as will everyone else.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

One other minor point:  Bad economic times often lead to conservative reaction in the spectrum of cultural affairs, not to mention a strengthening of repression.  That could change the landscape quite as much as natural population changes.

True, but I imagine that effect will occur primarily among the non-youth. 

So it will just take longer.

Maybe, but I wonder...  What will happen to the youth of this country when they finally get shoved out in the real world without their protective blankets?

My point is essentially this:  The youth of this country, specifically those in the 18-29 group, but in general those under 30, have unrealistically high expectations of themselves and their futures.  Probably this is because they have had ridiculously easy and pampered lives, moreso than any other generation of the past 100 years, with the possible exception of the baby boomers (and I would argue easier) due to prosperous economic times, and relative absence of societal chaos during their formative years (i.e. 1995-2007). 

This type of environment naturally leads those persons to embrace ideals and solutions without much thought as to their consequences.  What happens when the easy lives end and the consequences of the ideas start to become more important.  Right now, the youth will be relying, at least in some sense, on Obama (yep) to cover both fronts as they exit being youth.  This has a number of potentially interesting endings, and I'm curious to see where it goes.

Lastly, I doubt the youths are a world unto themselves, as you do.  The changes that occur to older, but still living generations are not immune to you.

Total BS, we know how bad the economy is. And it's real bad.  At least those of us who aren't supported by rich mommy and daddy, which seems to exclude a lot of this forum. But the economy is no excuse to cling to stupid social issues.

If the economy is still just as bad in 2012, yes, they'll abandon Obama, as will everyone else.

I think that the economy will still be bad in 2012 if nothing drastic is done, but it'll probably be a fair amount better than right now, but that's a low bar.

[Brittain33]

One other minor point:  Bad economic times often lead to conservative reaction in the spectrum of cultural affairs, not to mention a strengthening of repression.

Funny, I would argue that good economic times see a blossoming of evangelism, conservative values, and conformity that give way when bad economic times for people to break long-standing traditions. See the 1920s, 1950s, 1980s, and the Sunbelt suburbs of the last 20 years.