Libertarians

[Nym90]

I just hate it when people act like the world is about to end because the government can check their library records without telling them first. Oh no; I think I can live with that.

The President can declare anyone (including US citizens) he wants an enemy combatant, and hold them indefinitely without giving them any of the normal rights that the Constitution guarantees.

Still requires burden of proof.

What? No, it does not.

Actually, it does.  Why don't you leave the partisan blinders aside and actually read the Act.  It will take a good while, but you will see it's not as repressive as the ACLU would like it to sound.  

I *HAVE* read it, they just need some friendly judge to agree.

Well, best of luck.  Highly doubt you will since most of the items in the Patriot act are not new.  It's just the first time they've been applied across all of our society, and not just in specific cases.  Nothing to fear as long as you are obeying the law.

I don't agree. There is something to fear when privacy can be violated simply for suspicion of being a terrorist. As Lunar said, even if it's not being abused now, we are opening a huge can of worms for the future. Too much Big Brother for my tastes. Even if it does work (which I'm dubious of, but even saying it does) I'm not willing to trade freedom for security. Part of what makes America great is the tremendous civil liberties that we have compared to other countries.

I'd rather take my chances than have to surrender what makes America great.

[MODU]

I guess that's where we differ.   I would rather risk having the law check my records if the suspected something if it means they are also checking those of the actual terrorists if it means it saves my life and those of my friends and family, let alone other Americans.  Right now, these are the same capabilities allowed to the federal agencies in their war on drugs, but they could only have been used on known criminals.  Who knows how many "unknown" criminals didn't get caught due to those limitations?  Now, the Patriot Act allows a broader effort to stop them before we have to go into reactive-mode.

Again, it goes back to living the law-abiding life.  Don't jaywalk.  Don't run a red light.  Don't attempt to buy a SAM from a third-world seller.  You know?

[Nym90]

I guess that's where we differ.   I would rather risk having the law check my records if the suspected something if it means they are also checking those of the actual terrorists if it means it saves my life and those of my friends and family, let alone other Americans.  Right now, these are the same capabilities allowed to the federal agencies in their war on drugs, but they could only have been used on known criminals.  Who knows how many "unknown" criminals didn't get caught due to those limitations?  Now, the Patriot Act allows a broader effort to stop them before we have to go into reactive-mode.

Again, it goes back to living the law-abiding life.  Don't jaywalk.  Don't run a red light.  Don't attempt to buy a SAM from a third-world seller.  You know?

I see your point....but I don't think that only law breakers have something to worry about. Invasion of privacy is something that we all have to be concerned with. I don't trust those who have this power to use it properly. And it's not partisan...I just wouldn't trust anyone with that much power of surveillance.

Obviously I want to save lives, too, but I think that overall, the Patriot Act causes more problems than it solves. I'd rather take my chances with terrorism and not have to worry about being watched. Terrorism is a threat, to be sure, but there are lots of risks in life, and I just don't see it as being at the top of the list. Call me naive if you wish.

I feel that the best way to defeat terrorism is to not let them change our way of life....they want us to be paralyzed by fear. I refuse to give in to that; I'm not afraid.

[MODU]

I guess that's where we differ.   I would rather risk having the law check my records if the suspected something if it means they are also checking those of the actual terrorists if it means it saves my life and those of my friends and family, let alone other Americans.  Right now, these are the same capabilities allowed to the federal agencies in their war on drugs, but they could only have been used on known criminals.  Who knows how many "unknown" criminals didn't get caught due to those limitations?  Now, the Patriot Act allows a broader effort to stop them before we have to go into reactive-mode.

Again, it goes back to living the law-abiding life.  Don't jaywalk.  Don't run a red light.  Don't attempt to buy a SAM from a third-world seller.  You know?

I see your point....but I don't think that only law breakers have something to worry about. Invasion of privacy is something that we all have to be concerned with. I don't trust those who have this power to use it properly. And it's not partisan...I just wouldn't trust anyone with that much power of surveillance.

Obviously I want to save lives, too, but I think that overall, the Patriot Act causes more problems than it solves. I'd rather take my chances with terrorism and not have to worry about being watched. Terrorism is a threat, to be sure, but there are lots of risks in life, and I just don't see it as being at the top of the list. Call me naive if you wish.

I feel that the best way to defeat terrorism is to not let them change our way of life....they want us to be paralyzed by fear. I refuse to give in to that; I'm not afraid.

The one thing that seems to be forgotten is that the government can't just say "Ok, I want to look at Joe Shmoe's account records today . . . just for the hell of it."  They have to have a valid reason to examine available documentation on an individual before they do anything else.  And before they can arrest anyone, they have to prove burden of proof.  This isn't like the KGB or the SS.  It's just enforcing current laws, and expanding some specialized procedures across all of the US.  It's ok to fear change, and it should be challenged in order to explain the items of concern, but really, there is no change in our life styles . . . just the way the law enforcement police our communities.

But I accept and respect your point of view.