I may find out if Pawlenty is the running mate today...

[12th Doctor]

Nice story, Phil.  I just hope you don't cry in the shower when Ridge is picked.

[12th Doctor]

Ridge is picked.

Ugh..I'll vote Barr.

*Shrug*

Plenty of ex-Pennsylvanians living in Florida.

[12th Doctor]

By the way, the local news just showed an interview with Pawlenty. He's looking like the running mate... 

He looks like a sure loss.  I don't care how nice he is.  McCain has invested way too much into hammering Obama for inexperience to then turn to someone who has none.  It would be suicide to do that now.

[12th Doctor]

By the way, the local news just showed an interview with Pawlenty. He's looking like the running mate... 

He looks like a sure loss.  I don't care how nice he is.  McCain has invested way too much into hammering Obama for inexperience to then turn to someone who has none.  It would be suicide to do that now.

Pawlenty has no experience? Ok, right...

Not nearly enough to avoid backlash against McCain if he is picked.

Two things changed Phil:

McCain has hammered Obama far more for his inexperience than even I figured he would by this point of the campaign... and hammered is the word.

Obama went out and picked someone who make Methuselah look freshfaced and naive.  Don't get me wrong, I think picking Biden was a huge blunder, but we can't open ourselves to a counter attack in any way over experience and McCain has invested way too much in that angle.  If Obama had picked Kaine, then different story, but the Biden VP means we need to pick someone experienced.

[12th Doctor]

Too bad that this year we aren't coming off of an extremely popular Republican president, who won by landslide proportions.

Bush was a shoo in.  McCain isn't.

The GOP wasn't as popular in 1988 as people like to believe. Neither was Reagan.

Not nearly enough to avoid backlash against McCain if he is picked.

And how is Ridge much better? They had the same amount of time as Governor. Ridge does have the advantage of serving in the House during the 1980s and early 1990s but is that really going to make a difference?

Using Ridge's time as head of Homeland Security as proof of "good experience" is a huge risk. He wasn't seen as a great director and is mainly remembered by the public as a joke with a color chart.

Let's run a comparison of these two men.

Ridge was both an excellent student and a local start of high school athletics.  Tim Pawlenty never made it past JV on his high school hockey team.

Ridge worked his way through Harvard and then Dickinson Law.  Pawlenty took both his degrees from the University of Minnesota (not bad, but not Ridge).

Ridge is a decorated Vietnam Veteran... Pawlenty has been C-in-C of the Minnesota National Gaurd, and that's it... closest he has been to battle was on his JV hockey team.


Ridge spent six terms in congress, and that's not just votes, its committees, work, etc... I would say that's a decent deal more valuable than Pawlenty's couple of terms in the Minnesota House.

Ridge is remembered as  a hugely successful governor who won reelection in a landslide... did Pawlenty even break 50% in his last election? 

Pennsylvania is generally considered a state with more gravitas than Minnesota.   

As for SHS... well, you can't really fault Ridge either... he served well for the job he had... and the fact remains that, although there were attempts, there were no successful attacks while Ridge was SHS.

Ridge is (quite marginally) pro-choice, but he is defiantly a practicing Catholic... Tim Pawlenty, raised Catholic, and left... that's bound to anger more people than it attracts.

Now, let's compare photos:



Ridge says to me, strong, able, with a little bit of swagger and humor.

Pawlenty says nice guy, but he kinda reminds you of that wimpy guidance councilor who seems overly enthusiastic and is always trying to be "your buddy".

[12th Doctor]

Ridge was both an excellent student and a local start of high school athletics.  Tim Pawlenty never made it past JV on his high school hockey team.

Wow.

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Ok.

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Uh...so because Pawlenty didn't serve in Vietnam, we can mock him?

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I acknowledged that.

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Pawlenty ran against an apparently very popular statewide elected official who was supposed to beat Pawlenty in a terrible GOP year. Ridge ran against...Ivan Itkin. Really terrible comparisons here, my friend. Terrible.

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LOL 

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Oh darn!

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Uh...wow.

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

The "mocking" is to make a point that, even were Pawlenty to obtain as much experience as Ridge in government, he would still look kinda weak by comparison.

And if you think that there aren't people who will be put off by the fact that Pawlenty left the Church, then you are nuts... "Oh look, the Democrats have a real Catholic on their ticket, why weren't we good enough for Pawlenty?"

The reason Ridge's opponent was so weak is because the Democrats knew they would get crushed no matter who ran, so they didn't bother to try to front a heavy weight (and 98 was a bad Republican year, too).

I'm not being a dick, Phil, I'm being realistic.  I'm sure Pawlenty is a great guy, but I want to run with the best VP pick possible, and while that might not be Ridge, Ridge is a way better all around off of a shallow comparison, which is the best that most VP candidates get.

Ridge brings is PA, and helps in Ohio, Minnesota is out of out column regardless.  Elsewhere, Ridge does far less damage to the ticket than Pawlenty does.  Bottom line.

[12th Doctor]

And if you think that there aren't people who will be put off by the fact that Pawlenty left the Church, then you are nuts... "Oh look, the Democrats have a real Catholic on their ticket, why weren't we good enough for Pawlenty?"

"The Democrats have a real Catholic on their ticket."

Wow. I'll stop there.

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Yay! Ridge won in a landslide in a more Republican state than Minnesota! Congrats! 

By the way, 1998 was not a bad year compared to 2006.

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Wrong.

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Right, a Pro Choice candidate is less damaging than a guy who isn't as much of an accomplished athlete than Ridge when he was in high school! 

1) Phil, you are being extremely naive if you don't think there will be Catholics, especially older ones, who see it that way.  When a guy starts out a Methodist and goes Baptist, who cares.  Works a bit differently for us.

2) I think they key fact is that the Democrats kept all their good people out of the race, knowing utter defeat was inevitable.  They didn't even bother.  Ridge didn't even start campaigning until October, and he didn't have to do anything at all.  He's probably the most popular politician this state has had in the last century.  98 wasn't a horrible year, no, but it was an anti-Republican year.

3) You seem to be the only person in PA who doesn't think he brings in PA.

4) Remember how Rush Limbaugh would never support John McCain?  The only people making a big fuss will be the conservative talk show hosts, and they'll get over it quick.  The thing people will remember most is the chatter of the talking heads after the grand introduction.  Ridge provides them an hour loop of material, at least... material about Vietnam, popular PA governor, SHS, a little personal backround, five minutes on abortion, and that's it.  At the end they will know that Ridge is a bit unorthodox, but he is a free thinker, a war hero, and a good, committed public servant with a real record.

Pawlenty's real couldn't fill up half that space, and that's when people will start thinking, if someone doesn't bring it up, which they will, that Pawlenty has about as much expirience as Obama, and if McCian is railing about Obama's lack thereof, then that is devestating to the campaign.  And the same thing will happen if he picks Romney, Jindal, Palin, etc, etc, etc.

The game has changed.

[12th Doctor]

And after people here about his inexperience, that's when groups like Catholic Answers take to the street and tell everyone on their mailing list that Pawlenty has renounced the Catholic Church, which is all the little ladies at the Rosary and Alter Societies will talk about.  And that's when McCain loses the Catholic vote, and PA, Ohio, Michigan and Florida with it.

Almost half of Catholic voters support some abortion rights... hardly any support renunciation of the faith.

[12th Doctor]

1) Phil, you are being extremely naive if you don't think there will be Catholics, especially older ones, who see it that way.  When a guy starts out a Methodist and goes Baptist, who cares.  Works a bit differently for us.

Ok but you're being extremely naive if you think that that will have a major impact.

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But, again, it doesn't compare to Minnesota in 2006.

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Uh...only person in PA? Ok so now you and J.J. count for all of PA? Dude, you're seriously losing it.

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We don't need any more problems, Super. And enough with this BS about Ridge being someone with a "real record."

And after people here about his inexperience, that's when groups like Catholic Answers take to the street and tell everyone on their mailing list that Pawlenty has renounced the Catholic Church, which is all the little ladies at the Rosary and Alter Societies will talk about.  And that's when McCain loses the Catholic vote, and PA, Ohio, Michigan and Florida with it.

Almost half of Catholic voters support some abortion rights... hardly any support renunciation of the faith.

It's called conversion, Super. They'll get over it if they're that committed to the issues that social conservatives care about.

1)  Phil, one of the reasons I really respect your opinion is because, unlike alot of people on here, you actually know something about ground level politics.  And so you have to know that there will be people who either stay home, or vote for Obama on election day, because of this.  It's just like "Obama's a Muslim"... "Pawlenty renounced Catholicism"... some people here that once, and they don't want to hear the rest.  Now we might have a manifest heretic in the White House.  Not voting for that guy.  Even if 40,000 people do that in each of the 4 states I named, then the game is up.  Meanwhile, no one is going to vote for us because Pawlenty skipped Catechism to bang the cheerleader.

2)  Ridge got 58% of the vote with the 3rd Party candidate stealing votes from him.  Pawlenty got 44% of the vote with the 3rd Party candidate stealing votes from the other guy.  Ridges margin of victory was 26%.  Pawlenty's was >1%.

3)  Phil, you know better.  I know people in the real world who are well connected in state politics.  They are all of the same opinion as myself, to varying degrees and I know what I know, because I know it... I'm not guessing.  Even were that not the case, JJ knows what he is talking about.

4)  Pawlenty is all risk.  Sure, he might keep the Religious Right happier, but he doesn't bring anything.  If the Religious right abandons us for Ridge, which I don't think they will, then at least Ridge opens other doors and allows us to run a campaign more appealing to moderates, and it doesn't make us risk our trump card, either.  Ridge has risk, but brings in reward.  eitherway, I don't think that the doomsday scenario pans out with Ridge.

5) Issues only comprise half the story, and most people only really care about one, maybe a couple.  The other half is personalities, which is probably out best chance at winning this thing.

[12th Doctor]

You've made the point well that if we were casting the Vice President in a movie, Ridge would beat Pawlenty.

Don't cite Ridge's experience asa  Congressman.  He was an awful Congressman.

For the nuclear freeze and against aid to Contras?  I'm sorry, that doesn't do it for me.

If he delivers PA I'll be happy, but I can't say I'd be excioted about Tom Ridge as Vice President or heir apparent.

And Pawlenty, while I'm sure he's a nice guy, is no prize.  He's a big government guy.  And speaking of guys who might not deliver their own state...

What is wrong with the nuclear freeze?  Even Reagan was for it... though not the way it was attempted.

[12th Doctor]

Meanwhile, no one is going to vote for us because Pawlenty skipped Catechism to bang the cheerleader.

Dude, get a grip.

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First of all, stop comparing PA to MN for a Gubernatorial race especially in 2006. Secondly, Pawlenty received 47%, not 44%.

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Good for them. That doesn't mean they are correct and you're a dope if you think "everyone" agrees with you.

1)  Phil, I have a grip.  I am telling you, this is what other people are going to be thinking.  I really don't care if the guy left.  It's a non-issue to me.  It's gonna be a big issue once it gets out to hardline Catholics.

2)  Sorry, I was looking at 2002.  Eitherway, what else do I have to compare it to?  The point is made, Ridge is far stronger, electorally, in his home state than Pawlenty.  If Pawlenty doesn't bring in his home state, or any state, then what in the Hell is the point of having him on the ticket?  For morale?  Is he gonna give us a pat on the back and a "good job"?  Ridge strengthens our hand in PA and Ohio, and might even help us soften our image and pull in some other voters... not to mention he would be a capable President... not that Pawlenty wouldn't be... but I haven't seen the evidence.

Ridge is a bulldozer, Pawlenty is a retaining wall.  One of them move the earth, the other just holds it in place.  If we are gonna win, we need a mover.

3)  the only "serious" figures I have heard say otherwise are all people from out of state who only get a voice because they own a microphone.  Who have you been talking to?  This isn't a challenge, I just want to know, so I at least know who to compare notes with.

[12th Doctor]

You've made the point well that if we were casting the Vice President in a movie, Ridge would beat Pawlenty.

Don't cite Ridge's experience asa  Congressman.  He was an awful Congressman.

For the nuclear freeze and against aid to Contras?  I'm sorry, that doesn't do it for me.

If he delivers PA I'll be happy, but I can't say I'd be excioted about Tom Ridge as Vice President or heir apparent.

Ridge has this national advantage.  Obama/Biden had been hitting McCain on being a "not the same" and too tied to the right wing.  Ridge explodes that myth.  It helps stop an avenue of attack.

It also directly ties McCain to the Bush administration. Just pointing out the obvious.

That's going to be really hard to avoid regardless.  And of all the Bush Admin figures of prominence, ridge is probably the most detached.

[12th Doctor]

To answer your last point... oh really?

Back in 2002 Pawlenty was preparing to run for the Senate, but at literally the last hour, Cheney calls Pawlenty and says, "we have this other guy for Senate, we want you to run for governor," and Pawlenty says "yes, sir." And changes his plans.  Cheney says "jump" and Pawlenty says "how high."  Is Tim Pawlenty his own man, or is he George Bush's?

I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message.

[12th Doctor]

To answer your last point... oh really?

Back in 2002 Pawlenty was preparing to run for the Senate, but at literally the last hour, Cheney calls Pawlenty and says, "we have this other guy for Senate, we want you to run for governor," and Pawlenty says "yes, sir." And changes his plans.  Cheney says "jump" and Pawlenty says "how high."  Is Tim Pawlenty his own man, or is he George Bush's?

I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message.

LOL

You really think that will be used in an ad, let alone be considered effective?

Ok, Super. Ok.

I think that, in 15 seconds, I just came up with the outline for the most devastating ad of the campaign, and if you don't think they would run it, and if you don't think it would be effective, then you don't know nothin' jack.

[12th Doctor]

To answer your last point... oh really?

Back in 2002 Pawlenty was preparing to run for the Senate, but at literally the last hour, Cheney calls Pawlenty and says, "we have this other guy for Senate, we want you to run for governor," and Pawlenty says "yes, sir." And changes his plans.  Cheney says "jump" and Pawlenty says "how high."  Is Tim Pawlenty his own man, or is he George Bush's?

I'm Barack Obama and I approve this message.

LOL

You really think that will be used in an ad, let alone be considered effective?

Ok, Super. Ok.

I think that, in 15 seconds, I just came up with the outline for the most devastating ad of the campaign, and if you don't think they would run it, and if you don't think it would be effective, then you don't know nothin' jack.

Most devastating ad of the campaign? Are you being serious?

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard, Super. I'm sure the Obama campaign would love to hire you for campaign ad design.

I thought of that in 15 seconds.  If I thought of it, chances are 15 guys at the DNC will have a spot ready to go by the time the Convention rolls around.  And that's when I would run it.  At the time people care the most about the ticket as a whole.  Run it on all the networks, in every battle ground state right before Pawlenty is about to make his big introduction to the country.  and then if McCain tries to go after Biden in anyway, then just run it again, and again, and again... and contrast it with McCain's claims about Obama not being able to lead.  Talk about McCain's claims to be a maverick, with this guy in the co-pilot's chair?  Then wait for the VP debate and watch Biden throw Pawlenty around like a rag doll.

The effects could be brutal, and we lose support, credibility and valuable campaign time trying to fix our mistake.  Of course, it would clear by October, but by that time, we will have lost so much speed, that we'll just be like that guy who is chasing down the ball carrier heading towards an open end zone making one last pathetic lunge so we don't look like we were beat... the enevitable result being that we end up flat on our faces, while Obama dances in the end zone.

[12th Doctor]

I thought of that in 15 seconds.  If I thought of it, chances are 15 guys at the DNC will have a spot ready to go by the time the Convention rolls around.  And that's when I would run it.  At the time people care the most about the ticket as a whole.  Run it on all the networks, in every battle ground state right before Pawlenty is about to make his big introduction to the country.  and then if McCain tries to go after Biden in anyway, then just run it again, and again, and again... and contrast it with McCain's claims about Obama not being able to lead.  Talk about McCain's claims to be a maverick, with this guy in the co-pilot's chair?  Then wait for the VP debate and watch Biden throw Pawlenty around like a rag doll.

And people still won't care. It would be weaker than Obama's "Seven houses" ads.

You really must be joking if you think that that ad would be devastating. You are usually all gloom and doom if things don't go your way but this is just extreme.

I'm not moping.  I know we can win.  And I know we will win with Ridge.

At best, Pawlenty gets us no where we wouldn't be anyway.  At worst he totally undermines the message of McCain's campaign.  A month ago, I said differently, but that was before McCain made it clear that experience and character won't be issues, they will be the issues.  and he was destroying Obama with it.  Hence why Obama ultimately felt the need to pick Biden.  But that in and of itself was a miscalculation, because it went against the central theme of Change, youth and vigor.  He's opted to fight us where we are strongest, and we can beat him to death here.  Problem is, if we go with Pawlenty, then we weaken ourselves here.  He brought the fight where we wanted it.  We should exploit it.

Picking Ridge is a proactive move, at a time when Obama is reacting to us.  Picking Pawlenty is a purely reactionary move.  And I don't see what it gets us.  With Ridge, we can stick with our stregths will still moving forward.  Ridge does things for us that Pawlenty can't.  Its as simple as that.

[12th Doctor]

Listen, we really over analyze the affect of the running mates outside of the base vote. Ultimately, people don't care much. Obama is the one that needs to fight McCain when it comes to experience. It's not going to boil down to Biden vs. whoever our pick is.

I also don't get how Ridge is that strong when it comes to standing up to Biden. Ridge doesn't match Biden's attitude. We're probably going to "lose" the debate to Biden especially if we try to play his game. He's the master. I say we not worry about that since the debate won't be a big deal anyway.

This one is going to make a difference.  Electorally, strategically, tactically and personally, Ridge is the better choice.  I have nothing against Pawlenty, other than I don't see what he brings, other than the negative stuff.  Most people don't note much what a VP brings to a ticket, but they note what it takes away... and Pawlenty shuts alot of doors, including those that bring us the clearest path to victory.  It will matter, because even if the attacks don't reach to many people, it only takes 2% nationally to change the whole thing and put it out of reach.

I had no delusions that I was going to convince you, but I've made my case.

On my list, Pawlenty ranks just above Romney and below Ron Paul.  Put him in the over a few more years and see what we get, but not this year... I don't see it.  And the other choices are all frought with potential hazards as well.

[12th Doctor]

This thread is painful.  Phil is mopping the floor with the counterarguments.

He looks like a sure loss.  I don't care how nice he is.  McCain has invested way too much into hammering Obama for inexperience to then turn to someone who has none.  It would be suicide to do that now.

Two terms as governor beats any Senator for executive experience.  (Bayh was governor before Senator.  Not Biden.)

I think that, in 15 seconds, I just came up with the outline for the most devastating ad of the campaign, and if you don't think they would run it, and if you don't think it would be effective, then you don't know nothin' jack.

1) Ummm... what?  First off, I made no claims about Bayh/Biden one way or the other, so you must truly be a dreaming things up.  Secondly, I'm sorry, but what was your point... Ridge has the experience as governor and in congress, and as a cabinet member, which was the topic of conversation.  Whatever you were doing before you stumbled in here, sleep it off.  Thirdly, ummm... no, it really doesn't.  Every US Senator is like their own mini-executive branch.  I could see saying that two terms as governor of California trumps two terms as Senator of Delaware, but lets get some perspective here.

2) I respect Phil's arguments, even if I don't agree with them.  I expect others to attempt to return the favor.  In otherwords, f**ktard isn't becoming of you.  You should take it off and put your normal attire back on.

[12th Doctor]

I have nothing against Pawlenty, other than I don't see what he brings, other than the negative stuff. 

I've stated this several times now: He's young and he satisfies the base. He is the choice that avoids problems.

Also, I don't know what you're getting at when you say Ridge is "personally" a better choice. Besides his connections to his home area, who is he connecting with that well? The man often seems detached. Maybe he connects with the old time Catholic crowd (despite his view on an issue that means a lot to them) but, again, I think we're getting them anyway.

No, all that stuff you mentioned is covered in strategy, electoral, and tactics... what I am saying about the personally is that Ridge has a way better background and personal narrative and he comes off stronger.  And I'm sorry, Phil, I do think the whole episode in 2002 I brought up with Pawlenty changing his plans round the Bush White House will be brought up.  And when I say "devastating" I don't mean nuclear bomb, but it will slow down the campaign and chain it to Bush even more... certainly more than ridge would.

[12th Doctor]

Ummm... what?  First off, I made no claims about Bayh/Biden one way or the other, so you must truly be a dreaming things up.

Your point was that a two-term governor has no experience, "none."  I brought up Bayh because he was a two-term governor before he was a Senator, so he has executive and legislative experience.  Biden has never been anything but a Senator and has no executive experience whatsoever.

But then you brought up Ron Paul, which is its own variant of Godwin's Law.

You don't need to be an "executive" to have leadership experience (I don't recall having used the word "executive" once, unless I used it to refer to Ridge vs Pawlenty, but I don't think I did) and if you honestly think that a six year governor of Minnesota has more experience in government than the longest serving member of the US Senate, then you either drastically underestimate the job of US Senator, or you are nuts.  And the reason I brought up Ron Paul as a superior choice, is because, at least if we got him we would get the money and the fan club. 

Pawlenty might have an organization in his one state, but doesn't do us any good if we won't win there anyway.  And Pawlenty is an unknown outside Minnesota... and I mean a real unknown, not like someone who you might have heard of.

Ridge's base of power is larger than the state of PA, but even if it weren't, ability to carry PA does alot for us.  And Phil has never been to Erie, so I think he underestimates how fanatical people are up there, especially for a favorite son... and Ridge is the favorite son.  Horace Greeley once said that the primary passtime in Erie is politics... not much has changed in 140 years.  Ridge would produce a boost all over the state, but the tidalwave coming out of the Northwest would be hard for Obama to beat... and I an not kidding when I say 75% at least from that part of the state... its not exaggeration, its not drama, it would be a reality.

[12th Doctor]

Ridge has a way better background and personal narrative and he comes off stronger.

You basically argued that Ridge had a bigger jockstrap in high school. Who cares?


 

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You did mean nuclear bomb. You said it would be "the most devastating ad of the campaign."

How is God's name can the connection of Cheney asking Pawlenty to run for Governor instead of Senator be more of a chain to the Bush administration than a man who served in that administration?

These arguments aren't even making sense. I can respect a different opinion on the matter but saying that Ridge isn't as connected to the administration as Pawlenty is is outrageous.

1) Yes Phil, I said he had a bigger jock strap... nevermind Vietnam (which Ridge didn't have to go to), or working his way through Harvard (as a construction worker, because his parents couldn't afford it... Ridge got in on grades alone), or any of that other stuff... you saw the one thing that kinda offended you, and clung to it.

2) Because Ridges job wasn't political, and he came in to do his duty and get the thing moving... which he did.  He worked crazy hours everyday, and protected the country without being a partisan voice for the Administration.  Ridge was in the Adminstration, but he wasn't intimately involved with the -ups that everyone associates with it.

Pawlenty set his sights on the US Senate, and instead did the administrations bidding, because he was just a good little soldier.  I'm not disrespecting the man, but I don't see how you draw the parallel.

If you really can't see how those differ, then I don't know what to tell you.

[12th Doctor]

And the reason I brought up Ron Paul as a superior choice, is because, at least if we got him we would get the money and the fan club.

I am done taking this seriously. Completely finished. 

You have yet to answer my question as to what Pawlenty actually brings in.  All you have done was say he a nice guy and question Ridge.

[12th Doctor]

I asked to be convinced, Phil, and all you said was "He won Minnesota during a really bad year"... as I recall, the main reason was because the Democrats couldn't muster a reason not to reelect him.  That's good, but I need a better reason than that, and I'm not finding one.  I asked for one, but all I got was opinions as to why Ridge would be bad, and comparisons for why Pawlenty would not be worse.  *shrug*

[12th Doctor]

And the reason I brought up Ron Paul as a superior choice, is because, at least if we got him we would get the money and the fan club.

At the expense of literally millions of otherwise McCain voters.  Ron Paul and Alan Keyes are the only two I can think of capable of that.

Ridge's base of power is larger than the state of PA, but even if it weren't, ability to carry PA does alot for us.

If there were reason to believe Ridge could deliver Pennsylvania, or Romney could deliver Michigan, they might be worth the risk.  Polls suggest otherwise.  Even so, pinning an entire electoral strategy on Pennsylvania is… eccentric for a Republican.

I don't think Ron Paul is a good pick... thats kinda the point.


You are obviously trying really hard not to understand what I am saying, and so I am going to go to bed.  Because I refuse to continue to write multifaceted responses to points accross several pages of posts to have one sentence picked out.

[12th Doctor]

You are obviously trying really hard not to understand what I am saying,

I apparently have a lot of company.

Good night.

Do me a favor.  Read through what I have said on this thread.

And then go to this link, and read through this thread. 

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=81323.msg1681593#msg1681593

Read what J.J. says also.  The reason I am so short tempered is not only because you can in here and insult me like an asshole, but because I have given pretty good explanations for why I think what I think, and they seem to go ignored in favor of nit picking a couple comments here and there.