Sino-American entente

[CARLHAYDEN]

Watch and see if China and the United States don't engage in closer relations as a result of the depredations of Russia in Georgia.

Many in western Europe have been pathetic in their extremely muted criticisms of Russian aggression.

The Chinese will now be as inclined to rely on promises from the Russians, which are worth no more than the promise Hitler gave Chamberlain in Munich.

The stupid, arrogant Russians may well have opened more trouble that they ever imagined.

Now, make no mistake about it, the Red Chinese are as brutal and duplicitous as the Russians, but they are reevaluating the probability of Russian actions in central Asia, and can and will take actions to deal with the out of control bear.

Since the Russians have proved to be irresponsible, expect an responsible American administration to hand them a rope and point skyward the next time they come asking for help.

[Хahar 🤔]

Please. Comparisons with Munich got old decades ago.

[Dan the Roman]

That said, China has traditionally looked to the US for an alignment against Russia. It was one of the central reasons why we were able to win the Cold War.

 That said, the balance of power in East Asia is veyy different now. China is Russia's largest trading partner, and Russia is China's major arms supplier. They have no interest in fighting one another. Even if they did, I just don't think the Chinese have much to fear from the Russians right now. It would make no sense for the Russians to try anything, and if they did the Chinese would eat them for dinner. The Chinese military is in much better shape, and Russia would have serious supply issues given that it is dependent on basically one road system to supply the entire Far East.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Please. Comparisons with Munich got old decades ago.

The truth has no expiration date.

[CARLHAYDEN]

That said, China has traditionally looked to the US for an alignment against Russia. It was one of the central reasons why we were able to win the Cold War.

 That said, the balance of power in East Asia is veyy different now. China is Russia's largest trading partner, and Russia is China's major arms supplier. They have no interest in fighting one another. Even if they did, I just don't think the Chinese have much to fear from the Russians right now. It would make no sense for the Russians to try anything, and if they did the Chinese would eat them for dinner. The Chinese military is in much better shape, and Russia would have serious supply issues given that it is dependent on basically one road system to supply the entire Far East.

Well, its nice to see you occasionally acknowledging some facts.

First, the Nixon opening to Communist China (and the Communist Chinese response) was not based on mutual admiration, but rather on mutual weakness and fear of (the Soviet) aggression.

Second, what country was supplying the largest propotion  of Germany's food supply prior to June of 1941?

What country had the highest trade with Germany in 1938?

So much for your "trade" argument.

Third, the "road" system the Russians are depend upon is actually a "rail" road!

[Хahar 🤔]

Please. Comparisons with Munich got old decades ago.

The truth has no expiration date.

But bad analogies do.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Please. Comparisons with Munich got old decades ago.

The truth has no expiration date.

But bad analogies do.

I've got to save this one for the goldmine.

[Хahar 🤔]

Please. Comparisons with Munich got old decades ago.

The truth has no expiration date.

But bad analogies do.

I've got to save this one for the goldmine.

And I have to shove this entire thread into Godwin's thread.

[GMantis]

Now, let's see. Who do the Chinese have to fear more?
On one side a country with a outdated millitary and a millitary budget of 40 billion, two-thirds of China's. This country has launched its first invasion in 20 years in a response to the invasion of a region inhabited mostly by Russian citizens, right next to its borders.
On the other side a country with the best military in the world (outclassing Russia in every respect), which is constantly being upgraded with a budget of 583 billion. This country has launched multiple invasion of countries situated thousands of kilometers away from their border, usually with far less satisfactory reasons than the Russian invasion of Georgia. They have military bases all over the world and they are the chief backers of a territory China considers their own.
Yeah, I'm certain it's the first one...

[dead0man]

On one side a country with a outdated millitary and a millitary budget of 40 billion, two-thirds of China's. This country has launched its first invasion in 20 years in a response to the invasion of a region inhabited mostly by Russian citizens, right next to its borders.

errr no Ossetia is 66% Osetian and 30% Georgian...all other groups total up to 5% (including Russians).  Abkhazia is even better, in 1990, before the Russians and Abkhazia killed 30,000 Georgians, Armenians and Greeks and forced another quarter of a million from their homes, it was mostly (46%) Georgian with less than 20% each of  Armenians, Abkhazians and Greeks.  Even today there are twice as many Georgians as Russians.

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I'll give you Iraq, but we didn't have a good reason to invade Afghanastan?  Kuwait?

[GMantis]

On one side a country with a outdated millitary and a millitary budget of 40 billion, two-thirds of China's. This country has launched its first invasion in 20 years in a response to the invasion of a region inhabited mostly by Russian citizens, right next to its borders.

errr no Ossetia is 66% Osetian and 30% Georgian...all other groups total up to 5% (including Russians).  Abkhazia is even better, in 1990, before the Russians and Abkhazia killed 30,000 Georgians, Armenians and Greeks and forced another quarter of a million from their homes, it was mostly (46%) Georgian with less than 20% each of  Armenians, Abkhazians and Greeks.  Even today there are twice as many Georgians as Russians.

I meant Russian citizens, not Russians. There was also the matter of the peacekeepers.

On the other side a country with the best military in the world (outclassing Russia in every respect), which is constantly being upgraded with a budget of 583 billion. This country has launched multiple invasion of countries situated thousands of kilometers away from their border, usually with far less satisfactory reasons than the Russian invasion of Georgia.

I'll give you Iraq, but we didn't have a good reason to invade Afghanastan?  Kuwait?

How about the the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999? You may not remember, but the Chinese embassy was destroyed during the bombardment, "accidentaly" of course.

[dead0man]

I meant Russian citizens, not Russians.

cite?

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Were you being ironic when you said "peacekeepers"?  You really should have put that in quotes.  Or are you so blinded by bias that you think they really were there to keep the peace?

[GMantis]

I meant Russian citizens, not Russians.

cite?

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Were you being ironic when you said "peacekeepers"?  You really should have put that in quotes.  Or are you so blinded by bias that you think they really were there to keep the peace?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9850
I wasn't ironic. They were there officially as peacekeepers. It's not as if they could do much more, considering how lightly they were equiped. And Georgia's disagreement with their role dosn't permit it to massacre them.

[dead0man]

That link doesn't say what you claim it says (unless I missed it, if I did, feel free to point it out).

But honestly, your obvious hatred of America and her allies makes it seem like debating you on this is kind of pointless.

[GMantis]

That link doesn't say what you claim it says (unless I missed it, if I did, feel free to point it out).

But honestly, your obvious hatred of America and her allies makes it seem like debating you on this is kind of pointless.

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:YvkrRBbiK54J:www.globalresearch.ca/index.php%3Fcontext%3Dva%26aid%3D9850+Russian+citizens+ossetia+majority&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=opera
Look for the red marked word majority.
And you're not debating me. You're nitpicking and giving out insults.
I've given you a comparison between the capabilities and actions of the US and Russia and which would seem more dangerous to China and you've said nothing substantial to refute it.
I hate the American government, I try not hold it against Americans.
And I don't hate the American allies (my own country is after all a slavishly loyal American ally), but I can't stand those who imitate the US behaviour.

[dead0man]

That link doesn't say what you claim it says (unless I missed it, if I did, feel free to point it out).

But honestly, your obvious hatred of America and her allies makes it seem like debating you on this is kind of pointless.

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:YvkrRBbiK54J:www.globalresearch.ca/index.php%3Fcontext%3Dva%26aid%3D9850+Russian+citizens+ossetia+majority&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=opera
Look for the red marked word majority.

Thank you.

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I'm pretty sure I did point out that some of our recent "acts of aggression" had very good and legit reasons.  I agree with you that America has a much better military than the Russians, that is clear.  What I don't agree with is that's clear that the US and her allies are a bigger threat to China than Russia is.  We certainly aren't historically, where as Russia and China have had issues for a century.  Some of our closer allies (Japan and Taiwan specifically) have some deep issues with the PRC of course, but I don't see how you can think we're in the wrong in defending those places of freedom against the obviously unfree Chinese.  We may very well be a bigger threat to the PRC in 2008 when compared to Russia in 2008, but that doesn't mean we're doing anything wrong.

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Like Russians invading Georgia?

I agree, the American Govt is often very very wrong, but the Russian and Chinese govts are substantially worse in every aspect.

[GMantis]

And you're not debating me. You're nitpicking and giving out insults.
I've given you a comparison between the capabilities and actions of the US and Russia and which would seem more dangerous to China and you've said nothing substantial to refute it.

I'm pretty sure I did point out that some of our recent "acts of aggression" had very good and legit reasons.  I agree with you that America has a much better military than the Russians, that is clear.  What I don't agree with is that's clear that the US and her allies are a bigger threat to China than Russia is.  We certainly aren't historically, where as Russia and China have had issues for a century.  Some of our closer allies (Japan and Taiwan specifically) have some deep issues with the PRC of course, but I don't see how you can think we're in the wrong in defending those places of freedom against the obviously unfree Chinese.  We may very well be a bigger threat to the PRC in 2008 when compared to Russia in 2008, but that doesn't mean we're doing anything wrong.

But a lot them seemed to have been for poor reasons or for the furtherance of the US interests.
History always gives good insight, but it mustn't be abused. The fact that Russia and China had bad relations in the past doesn't mean that they do today. Their relations have been improving for 20 years, while China's with the US have worsened. And the US also did have historically recent issues with China - the Korean war.
I'm not defending China here or saying that it's wrong for the US to back Taiwan. What I'm saying is that makes little sense for China to see the US as a greater threat when the United States on top having a far stronger army have bases close to China and back Taiwan.

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Like Russians invading Georgia?

I agree, the American Govt is often very very wrong, but the Russian and Chinese govts are substantially worse in every aspect.
[/quote]
No, Russia doesn't imitate the US. If they imitated them, the Russian ground troops would remain in Russia, while their air force would systematically destroy all military and most civilian infrastructures. This would continue until the Georgians gave in and surrendered. Alternatively, the Russians would march in after there was practically nothing left to stop their invasion, completely occupy Georgia and leave when the job was done.

[jokerman]

Watch and see if China and the United States don't engage in closer relations as a result of the depredations of Russia in Georgia.

Ha, ha, ha, haaa. Ha. Ha. Ha... ho-ho-hee-hee, hee-ha... and I thought my jokes were bad.

[Person Man]

Yeah. Maybe we could. Perhaps we could pit Russians and Chinese against each other, so we can silently gain more power in Northern Asia. Then again, that would have horrific economic consequences in a time where the global economy may be running low on steam.

[GMantis]

Watch and see if China and the United States don't engage in closer relations as a result of the depredations of Russia in Georgia.

Ha, ha, ha, haaa. Ha. Ha. Ha... ho-ho-hee-hee, hee-ha... and I thought my jokes were bad.

This could work - if the US media is China's only source of information.

[Stranger in a strange land]

Notably, the SCO refused to back Russia over this. China is opposed to secession - for obvious reasons - as are the Central Asian countries, as many of them have disgruntled minorities as well. However, I'm not sure how significant this will be in the long run, as the SCO seems more symbolic than anything else.