Another day on the border

[CARLHAYDEN]

What do you call it with soldiers of a foreign army forcibly enter your country and capture government officials?   Well, its just another day on the border with Mexico...

Here's an example:

Aug 6, 6:09 PM EDT

Mexican soldiers enter Arizona, hold agent briefly

By ARTHUR H. ROTSTEIN
Associated Press Writer
 
TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) -- Four Mexican soldiers crossed into Arizona and held a U.S. Border Patrol agent at gunpoint before realizing where they were and returning to Mexico, federal authorities said Wednesday.

The incident occurred early Sunday on the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, about 85 miles southwest of Tucson, in an area fenced only with barbed wire, said Dove Crawford, a spokeswoman for the Border Patrol.

The soldiers, outfitted in desert camouflage, pointed their rifles at the agent and shouted at him not to move, Crawford said. They lowered their weapons after about four minutes when the agent convinced them of who he was and where they were, then retreated into Mexico, she said.

Portions of the Tohono O'odham reservation's 75-mile border with Mexico have been reinforced with vehicle barriers or other fencing to keep out illegal immigrants and drug smugglers. But other areas on the reservation and other stretches of border either have only barbed wire or no markers at all, making it hard to distinguish the boundary.

"There are places where there are no markers, at least not easily found," said Lloyd Easterling, a Border Patrol spokesman in Washington. "There's no line painted in the sand or anything like that."

Border Patrol officials said there have been about 40 similar incursions by Mexican soldiers along the 2,000-mile U.S.-Mexico border since Oct. 1, the beginning of the federal fiscal year. There were 18 such incidents through the same period a year earlier and more than 300 since September 1996, according to the agency.

"We're going to be looking for some corrective action from this," Easterling said. "We're working with the Mexican government to make sure that this doesn't happen again. This can't be happening."

He said that based on the agent's observations there's no question the men were Mexican troops.

T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council, the union for Border Patrol agents, said the incursions have created a disturbing pattern.

Bonner said there have been at least a half-dozen incidents in recent years where Mexican soldiers have entered U.S. territory and shot at Border Patrol agents. "It's a minor miracle that none of our agents have been killed or seriously injured," he said.

"It's inexcusable to not know where the border is" when military units have global positioning capabilities, Bonner said.

The instances where the Border Patrol strays into Mexico are few and far between, Bonner said. "We have no incursions with Canada," he added. "Absolutely none."

 

[Хahar 🤔]

Entertaining ineptitude.

[Chief Justice PiT]

Entertaining ineptitude.

     Or prelude to war. Only time will tell. *cue Dragnet theme*

[AkSaber]

I wonder, should a Mexican soldier accidentally kill a Border Patrol agent, would anybody care?

[CARLHAYDEN]

AkSaber,

In response to your question, the Bush administration wouldn't give a damn!

BTW, here's more info (from the Washington Times)

A U.S. Border Patrol agent was held at gunpoint Sunday night by members of the Mexican military who had crossed the border into Arizona, but the soldiers returned to Mexico without incident when backup agents responded to assist.
Agents assigned to the Border Patrol station at Ajo, Ariz., said the Mexican soldiers crossed the international border in an isolated area about 100 miles southwest of Tucson and pointed rifles at the agent, who was not identified.
It was unclear what the soldiers were doing in the United States, but U.S. law enforcement authorities have long said that current and former Mexican military personnel have been hired to protect drug and migrant smugglers.
"Unfortunately, this sort of behavior by Mexican military personnel has been going on for years," union Local 2544 of the National Border Patrol Council (NBPC) said on its Web page. "They are never held accountable, and the United States government will undoubtedly brush this off as another case of 'Oh well, they didn't know they were in the United States.'
"It is fortunate that this incident didn't end in a very ugly gunfight," said the local's posting.
The NBPC represents all nonsupervisory personnel among the agency's 16,000 agents.
Border Patrol spokesman Michael Friel did not return calls for comment Tuesday.
State Department spokeswoman Nicole Thompson said Tuesday that the department had no information on the incident, and referred further questions to the Border Patrol. "It is not an incident that we are aware of," she said.
Since 1996, there have been more than 200 confirmed incursions by the Mexican military into the United States.
Local 2544, the largest in the NBPC, is headed by veteran Border Patrol agent Edward "Bud" Tuffly II. He noted on the Web page that the local's leadership would "withhold further comment on this incident until we see how our leaders handle it."
"We don't have much confidence in most of them," the local's posting said.
Sunday night's incident bears similarities to other incursions by armed men in Mexican military gear in recent years:
The incident occurred in the same area where heavily armed Mexican soldiers riding in a Humvee shot at a Border Patrol agent in 2002. A .50-caliber bullet ripped through the agent's rear window as he sped away.
But the agent who reported encountering the gunfire was certain he saw soldiers, said Mr. Tuffly. He said at the time that the agent was able to identify their attire "down to a T, and it matched exactly what they [Mexican soldiers] wear."
That purported incursion began after a Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation police ranger reported being chased by men in a Humvee.
A year ago, U.S. law enforcement authorities were confronted by gunfire from automatic weapons as they chased and caught a drug-smuggling suspect in Texas trying to flee back into Mexico, the Hudspeth County (Texas) Sheriff's Office said.
No one was hurt in that incident, and the gunmen were not identified, although the area has been the scene of similar incidents over several months, including a confrontation in January 2007, when heavily armed men in Mexican military uniforms fired on Texas officers with a .50-caliber machine gun mounted on a camouflaged Humvee.
The men were identified at the time by Hudspeth County Sheriff Arvin West as "soldiers."
In that incident, Hudspeth County deputies pursued three sport utility vehicles back to Mexico after spotting them driving north from the Rio Grande. The pursuit ended on the U.S. side of the border when the deputies encountered 10 heavily armed men in what they described as battle-dress uniforms.
At that time, deputies found 1,400 pounds of marijuana in one of the vehicles abandoned after it blew a tire early in the pursuit. Another made it into Mexico and a third got stuck in the Rio Grande and was burned by the "soldiers" after it was unloaded.
In November 2007, the Border Patrol chased a dump truck full of marijuana in the same area when it also got stuck in the river while trying to return to Mexico. While agents sought to unload 3 tons of marijuana, the driver - who had fled - returned with a heavily armed group of men wearing Mexican military uniforms and carrying military-style weapons.
The soldiers backed the agents away and bulldozed the truck back into Mexico.
"Nothing was ever done," Local 2544 said. "Nobody was ever held accountable. Particularly galling is the fact that the Mexican military often pulls these stunts in Humvees donated to them by the American taxpayers. We note that Border Patrol agents have historically driven worn-out, junk vehicles."
A coalition of Texas border sheriffs has demanded that the U.S. and Mexican governments investigate incursions into the United States by heavily armed drug escorts dressed in Mexican military uniforms "before someone gets killed."
Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez Jr. of Zapata County, Texas, who founded the coalition, said a growing number of suspected incursions and violence aimed at the area's law enforcement officers is making the border "a pretty dangerous place."
Sheriff Gonzalez said three of his deputies in 2006 spotted 25 men dressed in military uniforms in the U.S. during a late-night patrol. He said the men marched two abreast and carried duffel bags and automatic weapons, and that his "outmanned and outgunned deputies" were forced to retreat.
"The only thing you can do in that kind of situation is seek cover," Sheriff Gonzalez said. "I'm not going to lose someone in an unfair fight."
The State Department on Tuesday also confirmed a separate case in which two California police officers were arrested at the border Friday on charges of attempting to smuggle guns, ammunition and training materials into Mexico.
A Mexican court is expected to decide Wednesday whether the two Monterey County officers will remain in jail or be released on bail.
The U.S. Consulate in Tijuana said Mexico holds the largest population of U.S. prisoners outside the United States

[StateBoiler]

Then why don't you go over the border and start shooting the Mexicans dumbass? It's not that damn hard. You won't though. Why? Because you're a pussy.

I swear, I'm sick and tired of the pussies that post on this board. Nothing but a bunch of people that just bitch about everything and never do anything to fix problems, just bitch bitch bitch about them. The Republicans bitch. The Democrats bitch. And the absolute worst are the true believers in either party that populate this board. They're worse than communists cause they're so far in the forest they can't see the trees. And the public wonders why this country is going to crap. YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU VOTE FOR! Mr. Hayden I'm willing to bet was a George W. Bush voter in 2000 and most likely 2004 as well.

In case you haven't noticed, the Republican and Democratic parties don't care about what happens on the southern border. Why? Because it suits both of their motives and the stupid dumbasses still vote for them! You want to fix it. Either start a border war with you and your buddies, or field your own "forceful border security" candidate in elections and cause both parties to lose. That's the only way you'll get people's attention. Until then, shut the hell up. Because this country has made it perfectly that the concerns of the individual do not matter.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Then why don't you go over the border and start shooting the Mexicans dumbass? It's not that damn hard.

I swear, I'm sick and tired of the pussies that post on this board. Nothing but a bunch of people that just bitch about everything and never do anything to fix problems, just bitch bitch bitch about them. The Republicans bitch. The Democrats bitch. And the absolute worst are the true believers in either party that populate this board. They're worse than communists. And the public wonders why this country is going to crap.

In case you haven't noticed, the Republican and Democratic parties don't care about what happens on the southern border. Why? Because it suits both of their motives and the stupid dumbasses still vote for them!

First, I was a minor player in gerring a law inArizona enacted for employer sanctions for hiring illegal entrants, when Bush basically refused to enforce existing laws against employing illegal aliens.

Second, I was on an advisory panel to the federal government which recommended against the phony "virtual fence."  It turned out, as we predicted, the "virtual fence" was totally ineffective, and it is being torn down.

Third, I played a minor role in persuading my Congresswoman to change her position on employer sanctions and support expansion of the E-verify system (which passed Congress shortly before the recess).

Finally, I have no desire to shoot anyone, but rather, to make sure the laws are enforced.

[StateBoiler]

Then why don't you go over the border and start shooting the Mexicans dumbass? It's not that damn hard.

I swear, I'm sick and tired of the pussies that post on this board. Nothing but a bunch of people that just bitch about everything and never do anything to fix problems, just bitch bitch bitch about them. The Republicans bitch. The Democrats bitch. And the absolute worst are the true believers in either party that populate this board. They're worse than communists. And the public wonders why this country is going to crap.

In case you haven't noticed, the Republican and Democratic parties don't care about what happens on the southern border. Why? Because it suits both of their motives and the stupid dumbasses still vote for them!

First, I was a minor player in gerring a law inArizona enacted for employer sanctions for hiring illegal entrants, when Bush basically refused to enforce existing laws against employing illegal aliens.

He's President. Based on how Americans think, President is almighty and all-powerful and can do whatever the hell he wants unless both parties stand up to him. That clearly will never happen cause the President will most always subvert one party under a pseudo-dictator party leadership. Where's the Arizona Republican Party, why haven't they strongly denounced President Bush's position? I know why. BECAUSE THEY'RE PUSSIES! If so many people in Arizona are against Bush's and McCain's loose immigration positions, why have they won elections in Arizona the last times they've ran there?

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I refer to my previous statement: In case you haven't noticed, the Republican and Democratic parties don't care about what happens on the southern border. Why? Because it suits both of their motives and the stupid dumbasses still vote for them!

If the voters of Arizona did not want the totally ineffective virtual fence, they would not have voted for the Democratic or Republican candidates in any election because those parties had members that stood for the ineffective virtual fence, period.

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Good for you.

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Laws can only be enforced if law enforcement and government are willing to enforce them. I've made it perfectly clear that they are not interested in enforcing them. As you are not government and not law enforcement either, your entire effort of standing on the sand is pretty much in vain. You're doing little more than playing whack-a-mole.

You also cannot say on one hand you're defending our borders and than on the other hand "I have no desire to shoot anyone". My dad was a Marine. He didn't want to kill anyone, but if the occasion called for it, he damn sure was going to do it without hesitation. Better yet, he taught me how to fight. Here's what you do. Go over to the guy and aim for the throat when you punch. Make sure he's coughing up blood when you walk away. You being a country club soldier that doesn't want to get his hands dirty does not secure our borders worth jacksh*t.

So again if you're going to defend our borders from as you describe a foreign military, why don't you actually defend the border from invasion? If you started shooting in retaliation to their foreign invasion, they just might stop coming over.

[CARLHAYDEN]

First, I suggest you check on the ratings for Dubya. They are among the lowest of any President since polling started.  Even Republican candidates shy away from being seen with him in public!

Second, when both candidates in a general election claim to support restrictions on illegal entry to this country (which is what happened in the 2006 elections) voters tend to cast their ballots on other matters.  At the time of that election, none of the candidates suggested they favored the virtual fence.

Third, if you have been paying attention, you would note that I will NOT vote for either McCain or Obama, and am supporting Barr!

Fourth, I know many people in the Border Patrol, and they are dedicated to doing their jobs, when the politicians allow them to do so.

Finally, I have no illusions of being some 'caped crusader."

[StateBoiler]

First, I suggest you check on the ratings for Dubya. They are among the lowest of any President since polling started.  Even Republican candidates shy away from being seen with him in public!

Arizonans voted for George W. Bush to be President in 2004 and they knew full well his position on the border. Your argument fails on that very simple point. If Arizonans wanted a secure border, why did they vote for Bush in 2004?

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So voters will defeat those candidates and their parties in the next election, correct? Well let's see who that leaves: the Libertarians, the Greens, Constitution...

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And the other 99.9% of Arizonans?

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The basis of democracy, supposedly, is that we might not have the best people running the country, but that we get the people we want and deserve. So if you're a person that believes that democracy works, you are then forced to recognize the point that the public elects and wants politicians that don't want the Border Patrol to do their jobs. If the public wants politicians that will let the Border Patrol do their job, they would vote for them.

Look, I agree it's a problem. I'm just being cynical cause I know it will never be solved by these two parties and their idiot supporters. And since these two parties are the only ones that will ever win an election, it's a problem that can never be solved by the country. You and your buddies will have to take law into your own hands or secede or help Mexico become prosperous to the point that none of them come over the border.

[CARLHAYDEN]

First, most Arizonans did NOT know Bush's position on the border, as he did not take action in this area until after the 2004 election.

Second, with the exception of Grijalva and Pastor, who come from safe districts, none of the federal incumbents up for reelection this year is opposed (openly) to border security.  Jeff Flake is a lying SOB who is likely to meet his end in 2010.

Third, you really have a warped view of reality.  The United States is a constitution, federal, representative republic, NOT a democracy!  Now, Arizona is fortunate to have the iniative process, and in 2006 we passed a couple of measures dealing with illegal aliens.  Slowly but surely we (the people) are making advances in dealing with illegal entrants.

[dead0man]

Maybe our military needs to make a 20 mile buffer zone....in Mexico of course.

[Chief Justice PiT]

Maybe our military needs to make a 20 mile buffer zone....in Mexico of course.

     My mother & I were talking about North Korea earlier today. The subject got to North Koreans fleeing to China getting caught & sent back to North Korea.

     Anyway, she jokingly suggested that we should get Chinese border guards for our border with Mexico. In that case, we could just flood the buffer zone with Chinese Army regulars. The Mexicans would definitely think twice before holding them at gunpoint.

[Хahar 🤔]

Maybe our military needs to make a 20 mile buffer zone....in Mexico of course.

     My mother & I were talking about North Korea earlier today. The subject got to North Koreans fleeing to China getting caught & sent back to North Korea.

     Anyway, she jokingly suggested that we should get Chinese border guards for our border with Mexico. In that case, we could just flood the buffer zone with Chinese Army regulars. The Mexicans would definitely think twice before holding them at gunpoint.

Or, we could get North Korean border guards and ship them to Mexico.

[Chief Justice PiT]

Maybe our military needs to make a 20 mile buffer zone....in Mexico of course.

     My mother & I were talking about North Korea earlier today. The subject got to North Koreans fleeing to China getting caught & sent back to North Korea.

     Anyway, she jokingly suggested that we should get Chinese border guards for our border with Mexico. In that case, we could just flood the buffer zone with Chinese Army regulars. The Mexicans would definitely think twice before holding them at gunpoint.

Or, we could get North Korean border guards and ship them to Mexico.

     We could just ship North Korea's entire army to Mexico & then invade them. The soldiers would be unable to reach us because we would have installed a shiny, new fence of course.

[StateBoiler]

First, most Arizonans did NOT know Bush's position on the border, as he did not take action in this area until after the 2004 election.

Bullsh*t. September 12th, 2001. President Bush was scheduled to meet with Mexican President Vicente Fox on negotiating and agreeing to a comprehensive amnesty and immigration plan between the countries. It's not my fault if the citizens of Arizona are ignorant, regardless of if ignorance is promoted by the local Republican Party.

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Not being opposed to border security is different from being for border security. And there's no such thing as a safe district unless Grijalva and Pastor live in districts that are for more lax immigration. Jeff Flake's district is also for lax immigration, otherwise he wouldn't get re-elected.

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Me? You're the guy standing in the sand thinking it makes a difference. 

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Your federal representative republic has representatives elected by the public. Those representatives represent the public's wishes. If the public is unhappy with a representative they can vote them out. So if a representative is not strongly for border security and the state wants a representative that is for border security, they would vote him or her out. If they don't, then they are either castrated dumbasses or they are truly for lax border security. Arizona is for lax border security. The results prove it. They have John McCain as a senator for something like 30 years who they will vote for President in November and voted for President in the primary over people that advocate stronger border security like Duncan Hunter and Tom Tancredo, and they voted for George W. Bush twice for President. If Arizona is for strong border security, McCain would've been voted out of office long ago and the state would not support his run for President. I don't fall for stupid rhetoric, I look at results, and your state's results show that Arizona wants lax border security.