Young, Gay and Murdered

[Flying Dog]

This entire situation is so upsetting

Lock his ass up for eternity.

^^^^

[Ban my account ffs!]

So, I suppose that the liberals here will say that, like most murderous kids, Brandon shouldn't get the death penalty.  Or will we have a double standard here because he killed a gay kid?

I say, fry the kid - he committed cold blooded premeditated murder.

That's very....cold.

I agree.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

So, I suppose that the liberals here will say that, like most murderous kids, Brandon shouldn't get the death penalty.  Or will we have a double standard here because he killed a gay kid?

I say, fry the kid - he committed cold blooded premeditated murder.

Who ever said he should receive the death penalty?

Me.

[Sbane]

This whole situation is pretty upsetting. From what I can tell Larry was a douche trying to hit on guys and flaunting his sexuality in their face like that( in middle school especially). I can also understand Brandon's situation if some guy f**king asks you out in front of all your friends. Of course he should have kicked Larry's ass promptly or at least after school or something. That is the way it should be in middle school. Sounds like Brandon was a real pussy anyways having to use a gun to resolve his issues. I say give him life in prison with possibility of parole. I am sure he will receive his share of ass rapings. I hope he think about his crime when that long black dick is repeatedly violating his asshole.

[Iosif is a COTHO]

You want to kill a 14 year old? Sounds cool.

He murdered somebody, so he's an adult. That makes complete sense.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but anyway...

There is a reason we have distinctions for people who are under 18. They are children, they are not fully responsible for their actions in the way adults are. Obviously they need punishment and some serious psycological help, but the idea of locking someone up for the rest of their life for something they did as a kid is pretty immoral if you ask me.

What if an 11 year old killed someone? Would you still try them as an adult?

An 8 year old?    Where do you draw a line?

[Flying Dog]

This whole situation is pretty upsetting. From what I can tell Larry was a douche trying to hit on guys and flaunting his sexuality in their face like that( in middle school especially). I can also understand Brandon's situation if some guy f**king asks you out in front of all your friends. Of course he should have kicked Larry's ass promptly or at least after school or something. That is the way it should be in middle school. Sounds like Brandon was a real pussy anyways having to use a gun to resolve his issues. I say give him life in prison with possibility of parole. I am sure he will receive his share of ass rapings. I hope he think about his crime when that long black dick is repeatedly violating his asshole.

Nice.

[Dan the Roman]

This whole situation is pretty upsetting. From what I can tell Larry was a douche trying to hit on guys and flaunting his sexuality in their face like that( in middle school especially). I can also understand Brandon's situation if some guy f**king asks you out in front of all your friends. Of course he should have kicked Larry's ass promptly or at least after school or something. That is the way it should be in middle school. Sounds like Brandon was a real pussy anyways having to use a gun to resolve his issues. I say give him life in prison with possibility of parole. I am sure he will receive his share of ass rapings. I hope he think about his crime when that long black dick is repeatedly violating his asshole.

Amazing how easy it is turn around a situation in which everyone is a victim to some degree into one in which everyone deserved what they got.

[Sbane]

Nah I am not saying Larry got what he deserved. A little ass whooping would have been good but someone explaining to him why the guys in school might not appreciate his advances would have been better. It is just a tale of a couple of confused teens and unfortunately one of them had access to a gun. Now whoever owned that gun should also get "owned" by the government imho. Obviously he should lose his right to ever possess a gun again and perhaps a little jail time is in order as well.

[King]

IDEA TO COUNTERACT MIDDLE SCHOOL HOMOPHOBIC VIOLENCE:

"Using Guns is Gay" slogan.  It's offensive, but words don't hurt as much as bullets.


In all seriousness, the true culprit here are dumbass parents who choose to shelter their children only to have them become traumatically exposed to things they were blocked from (sexuality, drugs, violence, etc) as they grow up.

[Јas]

I was a victim of harassment, and I would say bullying, for a time at school. Nothing like in the present case, but certainly I know that it's terrible and hopeless and lonely and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I don't disagree that Larry's behaviour was wrong. What I don't accept, however, is that the decision to get hold of a loaded gun, bring it to school, and make the conscious decision to fire it point blank at someone else, is anything other than a hideous, malicious and (I don't use the word lightly) evil act. Brandon clearly made a very conscious decision to inflict the death penalty on Larry for his behaviour, and that is just so far beyond the bounds of acceptability that I simply don't accept that he is entitled to any sympathy.

No sympathy at all? I'd be more careful with your words if I were you. That would mean you couldn't care less if he's tried as an adult, or torn to shreds by an angry mob, or anything of that sort.

No, it absolutely does not mean that. Nor did I suggest, hint or imply anything of the sort. I believe in the rule of law. Brandon is absolutely entitled to a fair hearing, a full defence and any and all protections any other citizen is entitled too.

Sure, the action Brandon decided upon crossed the line of what can be considered acceptable, but given the circumstances under which he lived and came to make that unfortunate decision I don't think a little sympathy is undeserved. Our whole system of justice is based on that concept - we give some people greater or lesser amounts of punishment for the same technical crimes due to the realities under which those crimes took place. If it weren't for the fact that justice takes sympathy into consideration, there wouldn't have even been any debate as to whether Brandon should be tried as an adult or a juvenile. Justice without sympathy makes no such distinction.

I haven't at any point suggested what punishment Brandon should get. Of course, the punishment should take account of both the crime and the criminal. Nor have I commented on any aspect of how Brandon's trial should be conducted.

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So, what? Is that supposed to make it ok? So if you lost a leg in a car accident, am I to have no sympathy for you because someone else loses both legs and arms?

No. And that's completely incomparable to what I suggested. What would be comparable is if I made the decision to murder the driver who caused the accident in front of all his friends.

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No, his actions weren't self-defense. They were retaliation on an unjustified level. Nobody here is denying that. We simply are recognizing the fact that Larry's actions towards Brandon were also cruel, deliberate, and perhaps even malicious - a fact that many people like to gloss over.

The actions of Larry and Brandon are on such completely different levels that I find it remarkable that such a conclusion can be drawn. I honestly can't comprehend how they can be deemed remotely comparable.

What Larry did was aberrant behaviour, and caused embarassment - but it was neither criminal nor indeed dangerous.
Brandon committed a calculated, cold-blooded execution in front of a class full of students that resulted in the death of a teenager and I'm sure considerable trauma for many others.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Brandon committed a calculated, cold-blooded execution in front of a class full of students that resulted in the death of a teenager and I'm sure considerable trauma for many others.

I'd tend to disagree with the idea that someone so young could really commit a "cold-blooded execution". Agree with your main point there, though.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Lock his ass up for eternity.

What good would that do?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I say, fry the kid - he committed cold blooded premeditated murder.

So you support executing 14 (15 by now, maybe) year olds?

[Sensei]

Lock his ass up for eternity.

What good would that do?

Exactly. I'm not convinced that the kid had a complete and sane vision of what is wrong or right.

[John Dibble]

No, it absolutely does not mean that. Nor did I suggest, hint or imply anything of the sort. I believe in the rule of law. Brandon is absolutely entitled to a fair hearing, a full defence and any and all protections any other citizen is entitled too.

Well then that means you still have sympathy for him as a human being. If you've got no sympathy for him then you'd be saying he should be locked up for life or executed, but you aren't. I want fair justice for everyone involved because I have sympathy for Brandon's AND Larry's situations.

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No, but you said he's not entitled to any sympathy. If he wasn't entitled to any sympathy there'd be no reason for a fair trial - everyone already knows he's guilty. Any trial that is to be had is to determine what his just punishment will be, and sympathy towards his own situation must factor in to that if the justice is to be fair.

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So, what? Is that supposed to make it ok? So if you lost a leg in a car accident, am I to have no sympathy for you because someone else loses both legs and arms?
[/quote]

No. And that's completely incomparable to what I suggested. What would be comparable is if I made the decision to murder the driver who caused the accident in front of all his friends.[/quote]

Who said anything about "comparable"? I'm saying that just because there's worse stuff that could have happened to Brandon doesn't mean what did happen to him any less bad than it actually was. I don't see how having sympathy for that misfortune negates the need for punishment or anything like that.

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No, his actions weren't self-defense. They were retaliation on an unjustified level. Nobody here is denying that. We simply are recognizing the fact that Larry's actions towards Brandon were also cruel, deliberate, and perhaps even malicious - a fact that many people like to gloss over.
[/quote]

The actions of Larry and Brandon are on such completely different levels that I find it remarkable that such a conclusion can be drawn. I honestly can't comprehend how they can be deemed remotely comparable.[/quote]

Have you been paying attention to humanity for, oh, I dunno, the whole of human history? Fully grown adults have killed eachother over much less than this, so I don't see how it's remarkable to think that a teenager full of hormones who is already emotionally unstable due to his unstable home life might react violently to repeated sexual harassment.

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It wasn't criminal OR dangerous? First off, harassment is a crime. And what Larry was doing to Brandon was sexual harassment. As far as dangerous, it was dangerous - harassing people can provoke them to violence. Larry, in the ignorance of youth, was probably unaware of this, but it is dangerous.

[Јas]

No, it absolutely does not mean that. Nor did I suggest, hint or imply anything of the sort. I believe in the rule of law. Brandon is absolutely entitled to a fair hearing, a full defence and any and all protections any other citizen is entitled too.

Well then that means you still have sympathy for him as a human being. If you've got no sympathy for him then you'd be saying he should be locked up for life or executed, but you aren't. I want fair justice for everyone involved because I have sympathy for Brandon's AND Larry's situations.

It seems we disagree over the definition of 'sympathy'.

I think Brandon should get a fair trial and due process, etc. because it's not acceptable for a society to reek vengeance and retribution (á la Brandon's own actions). This isn't because I have any sympathy for Brandon, it's because that's how I believe society should operate, lest chaos ensues. If I were to support the application of punishment to Brandon withour such process, then I'd be acting what would be a morally analogous way to him.

If he wasn't entitled to any sympathy there'd be no reason for a fair trial - everyone already knows he's guilty. Any trial that is to be had is to determine what his just punishment will be, and sympathy towards his own situation must factor in to that if the justice is to be fair.

I've already outlined why a fair trial is necessary above.
As to punishment, I'd suggest that it's an awareness to his situation, rather than sympathy, that is required to ensure sentencing is fair (but I will say that I'm somewhat unclear what you mean here, so I may be misinterpreting).

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So, what? Is that supposed to make it ok? So if you lost a leg in a car accident, am I to have no sympathy for you because someone else loses both legs and arms?

No. And that's completely incomparable to what I suggested. What would be comparable is if I made the decision to murder the driver who caused the accident in front of all his friends.[/quote]

Who said anything about "comparable"? I'm saying that just because there's worse stuff that could have happened to Brandon doesn't mean what did happen to him any less bad than it actually was. I don't see how having sympathy for that misfortune negates the need for punishment or anything like that.
[/quote]

Of course one can haver sympathy with people in car crashes and people who've suffered terrible uprbringings, etc. However that sympathy cannot extend to justifying horrendous crimes in any way, shape or form. Vengeance is simply unacceptable.

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No, his actions weren't self-defense. They were retaliation on an unjustified level. Nobody here is denying that. We simply are recognizing the fact that Larry's actions towards Brandon were also cruel, deliberate, and perhaps even malicious - a fact that many people like to gloss over.

The actions of Larry and Brandon are on such completely different levels that I find it remarkable that such a conclusion can be drawn. I honestly can't comprehend how they can be deemed remotely comparable.[/quote]

Have you been paying attention to humanity for, oh, I dunno, the whole of human history? Fully grown adults have killed eachother over much less than this, so I don't see how it's remarkable to think that a teenager full of hormones who is already emotionally unstable due to his unstable home life might react violently to repeated sexual harassment.
[/quote]

If this case wasn't remarkable, Newsweek wouldn't have written an article on it, nobody would have taken the time to post it here, and nobody would be discussing it. 

It is remarkable because despite the fact that there are "teenager(s) full of hormones" around the world, many of whom have unstable home lives, and many of whom experience teasing or harrassment or bullying - they rarely decide to respond with a calculated murder.

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It wasn't criminal OR dangerous? First off, harassment is a crime. And what Larry was doing to Brandon was sexual harassment. As far as dangerous, it was dangerous - harassing people can provoke them to violence. Larry, in the ignorance of youth, was probably unaware of this, but it is dangerous.

I imagine you'd have an incredibly difficult time convicting Larry of harassment in any court for his actions. (Though I must caveat this by saying that I'm only aware of harassment law in Ireland, so a different standard may obviously exist for the present case.) I'd be very happy to hear opinions on this point.

Secondly, his actions were not dangerous, in and of themselves. It was the reaction that was dangerous. And no reasonable person could assume that that response could be lethally dangerous.

[John Dibble]

Of course one can haver sympathy with people in car crashes and people who've suffered terrible uprbringings, etc. However that sympathy cannot extend to justifying horrendous crimes in any way, shape or form. Vengeance is simply unacceptable.

Ok, I think this is where our communication has broken down - I have sympathy for Brandon given what happened to him, but that doesn't mean I feel he was justified in the least. I can understand why he did it, even if I disagree with the actions he took. Because of the understanding I have brought on by sympathy, I am more inclined to believe Brandon should go through a more rehabilitory incarciration than a punitive one.

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It's not common, which is why it is news when it occurs, but it is by no means remarkable as far as I'm concerned. Human history is full of examples of people killing eachother over less.

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Given his status as a minor and psychological condition, Larry would have received minimal punishment under US laws if it was ever prosecuted. Most likely he'd be required to go to specialized counseling and be kept away from Brandon by a restraining order or something. Harassment in the US can be anywhere from a misdemeanor to a felony, depending on a number of factors such a prior crimes, degree of harassment, and awareness of emotional effects on the victim. I'm pretty sure Larry knew he was making people uncomfortable, but he didn't seem to care as he loved the attention, so I don't think simply asking him to stop would be enough in this case.

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Considering harassment makes people angry and anger makes people more prone to violence, I have to disagree with you. A lethal response is rare, though not out of the question. A more probable response might have been a schoolyard brawl, but that's still a violent response that a reasonable person might anticipate. Making people angry always has an element of danger to it as they may respond in a dangerous manner, though again I reiterate that Larry probably did not know any better and I'm not blaming him for what happened.

[JSojourner]

I'm quite amazed at the level of sympathy for Brandon in this situation.

Obviously, Larry's behaviour was inappropriate, but it defies me how someone could conclude that Brandon is not absolutely in the wrong. His action was morally reprehensible and completely unjustifiable. To deliberately shoot to kill a person because they have inappropriately expressed a crush they have for you is entirely abhorrent.

To suggest that Larry's actions stand in mitigation of this murder is farcical.

I agree with you 150%. Even if this kid was acting more flaming then Boy George he certainly didn't deserve to die for it.

Two exceptional posts.  I agree.

A lot of people are saying the kid who was evidently throwing his flaming gayness in the faces of classmates is at least partly to blame.

There is a difference between being unwise, stupid or foolish and being to blame for your own murder.

Let's turn the tables.  Suppose some kid was wearing a t-shirt with an aborted fetus on it and was covered with political buttons that said "Save the babies"?  And suppose some other student had just gotten sick up to here with the kid's preaching and pontificating.  And suppose the student who was sick of that crap just lost it and shot the anti-abortion student and killed him?

I suspect a lot of the knuckleheads who are saying it was the gay kid's fault would change their tunes and call the shooting of the "pro-lifer" a case of bullying, persecution and hate.

They would be right.  But in both cases.  Not just the one.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

one mentally deranged kid murdered in cold blood by an even more mentally deranged kid

[John Dibble]

A lot of people are saying the kid who was evidently throwing his flaming gayness in the faces of classmates is at least partly to blame.

There is a difference between being unwise, stupid or foolish and being to blame for your own murder.

Given the ages of these two boys and the unfortunate circumstances of their upbringing, I wouldn't expect perfect judgement from either. I recognize the role the harassment played in Brandon's decision, but I don't blame Larry for it. If I'd blame anyone, I'd blame the school for not handling this issue properly - that doesn't mean they would have had to make Larry stop dressing as a girl, but they should have stepped in in regards to some of his other behaviors like the harassment. If a boy had been behaving towards girls in a manner similar to how Larry was behaving towards the other boys in that school I doubt it would have been so tolerated.

one mentally deranged kid murdered in cold blood by an even more mentally deranged kid

I'd say "deranged" is a bit too strong a word for both of these kids - they were certainly emotionally unstable but "deranged" would imply insanity.

[Јas]

Of course one can haver sympathy with people in car crashes and people who've suffered terrible uprbringings, etc. However that sympathy cannot extend to justifying horrendous crimes in any way, shape or form. Vengeance is simply unacceptable.

Ok, I think this is where our communication has broken down - I have sympathy for Brandon given what happened to him, but that doesn't mean I feel he was justified in the least. I can understand why he did it, even if I disagree with the actions he took. Because of the understanding I have brought on by sympathy, I am more inclined to believe Brandon should go through a more rehabilitory incarciration than a punitive one.

And as a bleeding-heart liberal, I'm generally very much disposed towards rehabilitory incarciration. Certainly if something can be done to help Brandon such that he no longer represents a danger to himself or others and so eventually be integrated into normal society, all the better.

That said, punitive sanction is also important. As I said previously, the sentence should try and fit both the crime and the criminal. The sentence handed down must also try and reflect society's attitude towards the criminal act (which IMO was particularly heinous).

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It's not common, which is why it is news when it occurs, but it is by no means remarkable as far as I'm concerned. Human history is full of examples of people killing eachother over less.

(OK, it seems we're now starting to get a list of words on which we disagree as to the meaning of.)

Obviously it depends what scale you chose to compare the actions to in order to define just how remarkable the behaviour is. Whatever way one squares it though, Brandon's behaviour falls hugely outside the mark of human social norms and mores. One can be sure that this crime will have long-lasting, very significant effects for the many people caught up in it.

That such a vicious act might not be considered remarkable, strikes as a terribly depressing thought and may be reflective of a society that is surprisingly comfortable with, or desensitised to, random acts of violence.

[John Dibble]

That such a vicious act might not be considered remarkable, strikes as a terribly depressing thought and may be reflective of a society that is surprisingly comfortable with, or desensitised to, random acts of violence.

Well, I don't think it's a modern thing. Before we had guns, people were slitting one another's throats. Before that they were bashing eachother with clubs. Before that I imagine they were probably too busy running from other things that were trying to kill them to be bothered.

And many of these killings were over petty, stupid crap like small amounts of money, slight insults to one's pride, or just someone having a really bad day and having someone bump into them at the end of it. Then there are those mass killings we call "war" that often result over other petty things like the tribe on the other side of the river worshipping a different invisible man in the sky or buttering their bread on the wrong side. So yeah, maybe I'm cynical but given the numerous examples of such violence in our brief history on this planet I'm not all that surprised over this incident.

[JSojourner]

one mentally deranged kid murdered in cold blood by an even more mentally deranged kid

I actually understand where Jmcfst is coming from and I basically agree.  If the one boy was a homosexual or transgendered, he was undoubtedly confused and in great pain.  A healthy gay person feels no need to "act the part" and behave excessively just to get attention.  And there are plenty of people -- gay and straight -- who, when they realize they are viscerally hated by almost everyone, decide that negative attention is better than no attention at all.  Clearly, this young man -- like teenage goths, skinheads and others who are self-described freaks and outcasts -- was in need of mental help.  If he was gay, he needed to be taught that he was a human being first...accepted and loved as he was.  And that his acting out gave the appearance of desperation and attention-whoredom. 

What I am having a difficult time understanding is why some people (I am sure Jmcfst is not one of them) actually seem happy this happened...or at least excuse it as understandable.

I repeat my previous question.  Would the hardcore anti-abortion student who was always in everyone's face, covered head to toe with Christian and anti-choice buttons and messsages, be regarded as equally responsible for his own demise under similar circumstances?  Or would he be a victim of "persecution"? 

If there is one thing about Jmcfst I have sincerely come to appreciate, it's that he wishes no one any harm...even if they live in ways he personally does not approve of.  I am not so sure about a couple of other people commenting in this thread, unless I have dramatically misread their comments.