Young, Gay and Murdered

[tik 🪀✨]

Trying to put any of the blame on Larry here is ridiculous.  If the other kid had punched him in the face, it would ahve been a different story... but to shoot him?  I'm sorry, but there is something wrong with the other kid.

It's like arguing that you speeding up and hitting a pedestrian is their fault because they were j-walking.  You're in a large vehicle, the pedestrian wasn't.

I'm sorry but I was just disgusted by the whole "well, he was gay.. he should have just acted like everybody else and tried to be somebody he wasn't and everything would have been okay" as if he invited himself to be killed and that was okay because he was 'taunting' the boys.

Just change gay into black here and somehow I don't think the responses would have been the same.  Unfortunately, homosexuality is just several decades behind the civil rights movement.

For the fifteen millionth time, it isn't about putting blame on Larry or justifying the murder. It's about how this was not simply a boy being killed because he was openly gay.

[The Mikado]

Tragic.  RIP Larry.

Brandon had a full right to demand that Larry be talked to about inappropriate conduct, or to tell him off in private.  He didn't choose those solutions.  This is the dictionary definition of a disproportionate response.

[Хahar 🤔]

Trying to put any of the blame on Larry here is ridiculous.

True, but he was pretty stupid to be flaunting his gayness in the way that he did.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Probably because, if I remember from the article correctly, he isn't.

Edit for clarification: isn't being tried as a juvenile

Well... why not?

[Ban my account ffs!]

Trying to put any of the blame on Larry here is ridiculous.  If the other kid had punched him in the face, it would ahve been a different story... but to shoot him?  I'm sorry, but there is something wrong with the other kid.

It's like arguing that you speeding up and hitting a pedestrian is their fault because they were j-walking.  You're in a large vehicle, the pedestrian wasn't.

I'm sorry but I was just disgusted by the whole "well, he was gay.. he should have just acted like everybody else and tried to be somebody he wasn't and everything would have been okay" as if he invited himself to be killed and that was okay because he was 'taunting' the boys.

Just change gay into black here and somehow I don't think the responses would have been the same.  Unfortunately, homosexuality is just several decades behind the civil rights movement.

For the fifteen millionth time, it isn't about putting blame on Larry or justifying the murder. It's about how this was not simply a boy being killed because he was openly gay.

Then what is it about exactly?

The kid was just too gay and taunted the kid, so the other kid shot him.  Yeah, that's fine if that's what it's about... but you wrote your response in a way that implied that it was somehow less tragic because Larry was just a big flamer whether you meant to or not.

[Flying Dog]

And the other kid probably knew no better, much like Larry didn't know any better. It's sad for the both of them, but in no way was Larry blameless in this whole mess. He might have been gay, but running around making others feel uncomfortable doesn't sit well with others. If gays wants acceptance, they need to respect others.

My mothers hair man is a flamer and insists on telling us about his sexual escapades every time she goes even when I was 13. I really am trying to be tolerant of gays, but the behavior of some of them makes it hard.

"Knew no better..." What does that have to do with anything? I think the kid was at an age of where he could comprehend: Murder=Bad! Ignorance is no defense. I'm not saying what Larry did was right, or he didn't do anything wrong but, I mean, come on. I've been in tons of embarrassing situations and you don't see me going around blowing people's heads off. Also, did Brandon even tell Larry how his 'advances' made him feel. Maybe he should have done that before killing him...just a thought.

Nobody made Brandon pull that trigger but himself. In him, and him alone, the blame lies.

As has been said, most everyone agrees with you. I think the real point of contention is whether he should be tried as an adult or as a juvenile.

Is it really?

[tik 🪀✨]

Trying to put any of the blame on Larry here is ridiculous.  If the other kid had punched him in the face, it would ahve been a different story... but to shoot him?  I'm sorry, but there is something wrong with the other kid.

It's like arguing that you speeding up and hitting a pedestrian is their fault because they were j-walking.  You're in a large vehicle, the pedestrian wasn't.

I'm sorry but I was just disgusted by the whole "well, he was gay.. he should have just acted like everybody else and tried to be somebody he wasn't and everything would have been okay" as if he invited himself to be killed and that was okay because he was 'taunting' the boys.

Just change gay into black here and somehow I don't think the responses would have been the same.  Unfortunately, homosexuality is just several decades behind the civil rights movement.

For the fifteen millionth time, it isn't about putting blame on Larry or justifying the murder. It's about how this was not simply a boy being killed because he was openly gay.

Then what is it about exactly?

The kid was just too gay and taunted the kid, so the other kid shot him.  Yeah, that's fine if that's what it's about... but you wrote your response in a way that implied that it was somehow less tragic because Larry was just a big flamer whether you meant to or not.

Well that was not my intention.. as I said, I am very emotionally biased towards Larry. I think he should be allowed to wear whatever he wanted and act any way he wanted without retribution from authorities.

What this is about to me is that Brandon did not do this out of the blue for no other reason than that Larry was so over the top (from the norm's point of view). And that he himself had a troubled childhood. And that that needs to be taken into consideration. I don't think this was purely a hate crime, and I think it was done in one of the most emotionally and psychologically wacked periods of a person's life (middle school) and so he should be tried as a juvenile for his crime.

I am in an extremely awkward position in this argument. I have say, though, it's interesting being in the shoes of someone being called the bigot by the left. Even amusing, actually, to be labeled as the intolerant one.

[tik 🪀✨]

And the other kid probably knew no better, much like Larry didn't know any better. It's sad for the both of them, but in no way was Larry blameless in this whole mess. He might have been gay, but running around making others feel uncomfortable doesn't sit well with others. If gays wants acceptance, they need to respect others.

My mothers hair man is a flamer and insists on telling us about his sexual escapades every time she goes even when I was 13. I really am trying to be tolerant of gays, but the behavior of some of them makes it hard.

"Knew no better..." What does that have to do with anything? I think the kid was at an age of where he could comprehend: Murder=Bad! Ignorance is no defense. I'm not saying what Larry did was right, or he didn't do anything wrong but, I mean, come on. I've been in tons of embarrassing situations and you don't see me going around blowing people's heads off. Also, did Brandon even tell Larry how his 'advances' made him feel. Maybe he should have done that before killing him...just a thought.

Nobody made Brandon pull that trigger but himself. In him, and him alone, the blame lies.

As has been said, most everyone agrees with you. I think the real point of contention is whether he should be tried as an adult or as a juvenile.

Is it really?

Yes, because I am not certain as to whether or not a middle schooler is at a mental and emotional place where they can be charged with a hate crime.

[Verily]

As has been said, most everyone agrees with you. I think the real point of contention is whether he should be tried as an adult or as a juvenile.

If I read the first post right, McInerney was 14 at the time. So obviously he should be tried as a juvenile. Not sure why that's even an issue.

Because, in the US, if you commit a major crime at any age, you're obviously an adult. Or something.

(I oppose trying anyone under the age of 18 as an adult under all circumstances. That's the whole point of the distinction between juvenile and adult punishment.)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Because, in the US, if you commit a major crime at any age, you're obviously an adult. Or something.

That's downright absurd.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Good for you then

[??????????]

As has been said, most everyone agrees with you. I think the real point of contention is whether he should be tried as an adult or as a juvenile.

If I read the first post right, McInerney was 14 at the time. So obviously he should be tried as a juvenile. Not sure why that's even an issue.

Because, in the US, if you commit a major crime at any age, you're obviously an adult. Or something.

(I oppose trying anyone under the age of 18 as an adult under all circumstances. That's the whole point of the distinction between juvenile and adult punishment.)

What if a known sociopath, at age 17 1/2 kills his family? Should he be tried as a child? The whole idea between a 17/18, automatic adult, is ridiculous.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Just change gay into black here and somehow I don't think the responses would have been the same.  Unfortunately, homosexuality is just several decades behind the civil rights movement.

That's a horrible comparsion.  From what I can gather the murderered kid was flirting with the murderer and other guys because he thought it was funny.  That's just obnoxious behavior.  It has nothing to do with being gay instead of black.  This is like wearing Red Sox clothes to school in the middle of a NYC public school full of Yankee fans to push their buttons.  This kid, however tragic it may be, really pushed his luck a bit too far.

[tik 🪀✨]

The school has conducted its own investigation, though its lawyer won't make it public. But it will likely be brought up when Brandon goes to trial. He is charged with first-degree murder and a hate crime, and is scheduled to be arraigned this week. Hundreds of his classmates have signed a petition asking that he be tried in juvenile court. The district attorney wants him tried as an adult, which could result in a prison sentence of 51 years to life.

That's from the last page of the full article linked in the original post, which I encourage everyone here to read to get a more well-rounded view of the situation.

[Ban my account ffs!]

The school has conducted its own investigation, though its lawyer won't make it public. But it will likely be brought up when Brandon goes to trial. He is charged with first-degree murder and a hate crime, and is scheduled to be arraigned this week. Hundreds of his classmates have signed a petition asking that he be tried in juvenile court. The district attorney wants him tried as an adult, which could result in a prison sentence of 51 years to life.

That's from the last page of the full article linked in the original post, which I encourage everyone here to read to get a more well-rounded view of the situation.

I think he should be tried as a juvenile.  I think he was very aware that murder is bad at age 14, but he may not have been fully aware of the consequences of what he did as a 14 year old with a gun.

I just don't think he'd have been as likely to do what he did if he were a mature adult.

[tik 🪀✨]

The school has conducted its own investigation, though its lawyer won't make it public. But it will likely be brought up when Brandon goes to trial. He is charged with first-degree murder and a hate crime, and is scheduled to be arraigned this week. Hundreds of his classmates have signed a petition asking that he be tried in juvenile court. The district attorney wants him tried as an adult, which could result in a prison sentence of 51 years to life.

That's from the last page of the full article linked in the original post, which I encourage everyone here to read to get a more well-rounded view of the situation.

I think he should be tried as a juvenile.  I think he was very aware that murder is bad at age 14, but he may not have been fully aware of the consequences of what he did as a 14 year old with a gun.

I just don't think he'd have been as likely to do what he did if he were a mature adult.

Agreed.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Trying to put any of the blame on Larry here is ridiculous.  If the other kid had punched him in the face, it would ahve been a different story... but to shoot him?  I'm sorry, but there is something wrong with the other kid.

It's like arguing that you speeding up and hitting a pedestrian is their fault because they were j-walking.  You're in a large vehicle, the pedestrian wasn't.

I'm sorry but I was just disgusted by the whole "well, he was gay.. he should have just acted like everybody else and tried to be somebody he wasn't and everything would have been okay" as if he invited himself to be killed and that was okay because he was 'taunting' the boys.

Just change gay into black here and somehow I don't think the responses would have been the same.  Unfortunately, homosexuality is just several decades behind the civil rights movement.

For the fifteen millionth time, it isn't about putting blame on Larry or justifying the murder. It's about how this was not simply a boy being killed because he was openly gay.

Then what is it about exactly?

The kid was just too gay and taunted the kid, so the other kid shot him.  Yeah, that's fine if that's what it's about... but you wrote your response in a way that implied that it was somehow less tragic because Larry was just a big flamer whether you meant to or not.

Well that was not my intention.. as I said, I am very emotionally biased towards Larry. I think he should be allowed to wear whatever he wanted and act any way he wanted without retribution from authorities.

What this is about to me is that Brandon did not do this out of the blue for no other reason than that Larry was so over the top (from the norm's point of view). And that he himself had a troubled childhood. And that that needs to be taken into consideration. I don't think this was purely a hate crime, and I think it was done in one of the most emotionally and psychologically wacked periods of a person's life (middle school) and so he should be tried as a juvenile for his crime.

I am in an extremely awkward position in this argument. I have say, though, it's interesting being in the shoes of someone being called the bigot by the left. Even amusing, actually, to be labeled as the intolerant one.

I wasn't labeling you as a bigot or being intolerant.  That was directed more towards those that are openly intolerant of gay people.

I am just very passionate about the fact that premeditated murder is *never* justified.

 

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Apparently, he will be tried as an adult:

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/jul/25/judge-oks-adult-trial-for-teen-suspect/

[Sensei]

Just change gay into black here and somehow I don't think the responses would have been the same.  Unfortunately, homosexuality is just several decades behind the civil rights movement.

That's a horrible comparsion.  From what I can gather the murderered kid was flirting with the murderer and other guys because he thought it was funny.  That's just obnoxious behavior.  It has nothing to do with being gay instead of black.  This is like wearing Red Sox clothes to school in the middle of a NYC public school full of Yankee fans to push their buttons.  This kid, however tragic it may be, really pushed his luck a bit too far.

I actually agree with Down, maybe not the analogy, though.

[Dan the Roman]

I feel genuinely conflicted on this. I think 15 is old enough to know right from wrong, but the wrong in this case does not seem premeditated, and the bigotry it seems to have sprung from was clearly heavily influenced by his own upbringing. Also, I am reluctant to dump anyone in prison from middle school onwards for the the rest of their life.

On the other hand the sheer near randomness of this crime makes it all the more disturbing, and I wonder whether it is a sign of something more serious. One of the arguments in favor of trying juveniles is that any 14 year old who would commit a particularly heinous murder is wired in such a way that they will re-offend later.

So I really can't say whether or not he should be tried as juvenile.

As for the Larry thing, to say that he in anyway brought this on is absurd. That said, and I am going to be crucified for this, as any rational human being who went through middle school knows, being deliberately different attracts trouble. We say that this is wrong, and we make all kinds of policies to prevent it, but those policies can not reach everywhere in these kids lives at all times. A lot of the argument here seems to be that Larry's behavior shouldn't have brought violence on, the school administration should have acted as though it wouldn't. This is absurd. When I was having trouble in Middle School the best thing anyone did for me was when the Assistant Principal took me into her office and explained exactly what she thought I was doing to provoke it. Was I doing anything wrong? No, but she wanted to make clear there would be consequences nonetheless because her priority was stopping the harrassment.

As much as I get pissed off when fundies go off on their bizarre crusades against 'homosexual indoctrination in the schools", there is a kernal of truth in their argument that teachers have become so tolerant that they do not warn students of the consequences of their behavior when those consequences are based on the adverse reactions of others. No teacher or official took Larry aside and told him what he was doing and what would happen, and in fact one teacher even bought him clothes. That teacher intended to be supportive, but she was not, only encouragtive. A truly supportive figure would have been honest.

[ottermax]

Every murder has a reason, but murder is never justifiable.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What if a known sociopath, at age 17 1/2 kills his family? Should he be tried as a child? The whole idea between a 17/18, automatic adult, is ridiculous.

A fair point, but you have to draw the line somewhere. And I tend to argue that sociopaths should just be sectioned.

[Verily]

As has been said, most everyone agrees with you. I think the real point of contention is whether he should be tried as an adult or as a juvenile.

If I read the first post right, McInerney was 14 at the time. So obviously he should be tried as a juvenile. Not sure why that's even an issue.

Because, in the US, if you commit a major crime at any age, you're obviously an adult. Or something.

(I oppose trying anyone under the age of 18 as an adult under all circumstances. That's the whole point of the distinction between juvenile and adult punishment.)

What if a known sociopath, at age 17 1/2 kills his family? Should he be tried as a child? The whole idea between a 17/18, automatic adult, is ridiculous.

Of course, but the arbitrary decisions of judges are, well, even more arbitrary. You could scrap separate juvenile punishment entirely (which I would oppose), or reduce the age to maybe 16 (which wouldn't be so bad) if you want, but the system as it is right now is merely a farce.

[??????????]

As has been said, most everyone agrees with you. I think the real point of contention is whether he should be tried as an adult or as a juvenile.

If I read the first post right, McInerney was 14 at the time. So obviously he should be tried as a juvenile. Not sure why that's even an issue.

Because, in the US, if you commit a major crime at any age, you're obviously an adult. Or something.

(I oppose trying anyone under the age of 18 as an adult under all circumstances. That's the whole point of the distinction between juvenile and adult punishment.)

What if a known sociopath, at age 17 1/2 kills his family? Should he be tried as a child? The whole idea between a 17/18, automatic adult, is ridiculous.

Of course, but the arbitrary decisions of judges are, well, even more arbitrary. You could scrap separate juvenile punishment entirely (which I would oppose), or reduce the age to maybe 16 (which wouldn't be so bad) if you want, but the system as it is right now is merely a farce.

Sixteen is to high I'd say. In my opinion 13 is reasonable.

[Јas]

I'm quite amazed at the level of sympathy for Brandon in this situation.

Obviously, Larry's behaviour was inappropriate, but it defies me how someone could conclude that Brandon is not absolutely in the wrong. His action was morally reprehensible and completely unjustifiable. To deliberately shoot to kill a person because they have inappropriately expressed a crush they have for you is entirely abhorrent.

To suggest that Larry's actions stand in mitigation of this murder is farcical.

[??????????]

I'm quite amazed at the level of sympathy for Brandon in this situation.

Obviously, Larry's behaviour was inappropriate, but it defies me how someone could conclude that Brandon is not absolutely in the wrong. His action was morally reprehensible and completely unjustifiable. To deliberately shoot to kill a person because they have inappropriately expressed a crush they have for you is entirely abhorrent.

To suggest that Larry's actions stand in mitigation of this murder is farcical.

I agree with you 150%. Even if this kid was acting more flaming then Boy George he certainly didn't deserve to die for it.