Why is homosexuality "bad" to some people?

[Ban my account ffs!]

This debate is so tired.

[Associate Justice PiT]

This debate is so tired.

     Like abortion, gay rights is an issue that is fundamentally incapable of a resolution. Abortion because one side (my side ) views it as murder whereas the other does not. Gay rights because one side views it as unnatural whereas the other does not.

     Straight to the point, it's absolutely not worth trying to debate with anyone. I support gay marriage because gay people are absolutely non-threatening to heterosexuals. I strongly subscribe to the view that if something is not a threat to anyone else, there is no reason that it should be outlawed.

     I will say though that my mother strongly supports gay marriage, but she chides me for supporting it myself.

[Brambila]

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It’s true. I know it sounds a bit clique to say that, but even major leaders of the APA, especially recently, have attested to this fact. The APA is falling apart, for crying out loud. It has lost a lot of respect in the scientific community.

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I’m not to judge whether or not your individual friends are happy. All I know as that this psychological disorder that I described does not make one happy. Ask your friends—how is their relationship with their father? Were they close to their father as children? I can’t say that your homosexual friends weren’t close to their fathers, but statistically speaking, they will most likely are not.

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If this is the case, how come Buddhists in Tibet are happy? They have endured countless degrees of persecution in the last 50 years, and yet they continue what they are doing, and are happy. Another instance comes into mind—I live in San Francisco. How come San Francisco, the most gay-friendly city in the nation, also has one of the highest rates of violent crime and promiscuity among homosexuals in the nation?

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I would be quite content equating in terms of societal threats homosexuality with alcoholism. However, there is something that makes homosexuality worse. First of all, sex is far more addictive than alcohol. According to a recent study done by psychologists, over 60% of American men are addicted to sex. Whether this is through pornography, promiscuous sex, or masturbation, this is the case. Second, homosexuality is more threatening because there is an entire culture that surrounds it that lures people in. I have many friends in the psychological community and with those who work with homosexuals, and I can attest to the fact that I know of situations—both through personal experience and word of mouth—of young homosexual men being lured into the homosexual lifestyle, only to die from HIV or other STDs at a very young age. My own uncle is HIV positive from living a homosexual lifestyle, and he entered it in high school. In my uncles case, and as is often the case, adults brought him into the lifestyle when he was an emotional and unstable teenager. Thus, I believe the homosexual lifestyle to be much more threatening than alcoholism. At least everyone recognizes that alcoholism is not ideal.

[Ban my account ffs!]

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It’s true. I know it sounds a bit clique to say that, but even major leaders of the APA, especially recently, have attested to this fact. The APA is falling apart, for crying out loud. It has lost a lot of respect in the scientific community.

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I’m not to judge whether or not your individual friends are happy. All I know as that this psychological disorder that I described does not make one happy. Ask your friends—how is their relationship with their father? Were they close to their father as children? I can’t say that your homosexual friends weren’t close to their fathers, but statistically speaking, they will most likely are not.

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If this is the case, how come Buddhists in Tibet are happy? They have endured countless degrees of persecution in the last 50 years, and yet they continue what they are doing, and are happy. Another instance comes into mind—I live in San Francisco. How come San Francisco, the most gay-friendly city in the nation, also has one of the highest rates of violent crime and promiscuity among homosexuals in the nation?

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I would be quite content equating in terms of societal threats homosexuality with alcoholism. However, there is something that makes homosexuality worse. First of all, sex is far more addictive than alcohol. According to a recent study done by psychologists, over 60% of American men are addicted to sex. Whether this is through pornography, promiscuous sex, or masturbation, this is the case. Second, homosexuality is more threatening because there is an entire culture that surrounds it that lures people in. I have many friends in the psychological community and with those who work with homosexuals, and I can attest to the fact that I know of situations—both through personal experience and word of mouth—of young homosexual men being lured into the homosexual lifestyle, only to die from HIV or other STDs at a very young age. My own uncle is HIV positive from living a homosexual lifestyle, and he entered it in high school. In my uncles case, and as is often the case, adults brought him into the lifestyle when he was an emotional and unstable teenager. Thus, I believe the homosexual lifestyle to be much more threatening than alcoholism. At least everyone recognizes that alcoholism is not ideal.

This is like arguing that your magical, fantastical creature could beat up my magical, fantastical creature and going into great detail as to why and never giving thought to the fact that the magic, fantastical creatures don't exist in the first place.

Opine what you will; the rest of the world will move on.

[Brambila]

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I have used reason to explain everything I have said. What magical creature are you talking about? You seem to be the one in a fantasy.

[Sbane]

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I have used reason to explain everything I have said. What magical creature are you talking about? You seem to be the one in a fantasy.

Dude gays can't help it. I think that is one fact you need to understand. Just like you and I are attracted to women, they are attracted to men. If they pretended to like women, their lives would be worthless and meaningless and they would be hurting themselves( which you think homosexuality does to them).

[John Dibble]

It’s true. I know it sounds a bit clique to say that, but even major leaders of the APA, especially recently, have attested to this fact. The APA is falling apart, for crying out loud. It has lost a lot of respect in the scientific community.

The APA is falling apart? Since when? Up until now I've received no information in regards to this.

Meanwhile, nobody in the scientific community respects NARTH and the organizations you support.

(the word you're looking for there is cliché, btw)

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Of course being homosexual doesn't make one happy. Neither does being straight last time I checked - there are lots of miserable straight people in the world with no psychological disorders.

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Statistically speaking? Where the hell did this statistic come from?

Anyways, a lot of fathers have a stigma against homosexuals, which couldn't possibly come from religious teachings. That couldn't possibly affect how a straight parent might relate to a homosexually oriented child.

[Ban my account ffs!]

You have used your opinion and preconceived notions to explain everything you said.  You provided no sound, peer reviewed scientific evidence to back up your claim and you say this is okay because the science is inherently flawed due to some imaginary "homosexual agenda"... you didn't even present a cogent argument.

I feel that you love who you love.  Our brains have evolved beyond the pure instinctual need to procreate.  But that is beside hte point.  If you are using this argument to discredit homosexuality, then one can argue that homosexuals are capable of producing children as well.  They can still have sex with a female/male and produce children.  The gay person may not fall in love with that person... but when the basis of the argument is simple procreation, then that doesn't matter!  The very fact that we can love proves that our interpersonal relationships go beyond procreation.

  It is not a mental disorder to fall in love with somebody whether they be male or female as long as you stay true to that person.  In fact, I would press you to argue if truly falling in love with somebody is ever immoral.  Or do you think gays can't fall in love?

I will agree that addiction to sex and pornography are big problems for a lot of people and that promiscuity is not only unsafe, but it is very dishonest to yourself and others.

I would argue, however, that the promiscuity and other problems surrounding the gay community have little to do with "mental disorders" and a lot more to do with being forced into the closet and feeling like their entire lifestyle, which was not a choice, is somehow wrong.  

The same logic can be applied to the arguments of legalizing some drugs or lowering the drinking age.  Americans don't binge drink more and have more problems with youth drinking because our youth are somehow more immoral than youth elsewhere in the world.  It's because we have raised the drinking age to a ridiculously high age.

Going back to the gay argument, you'll find that people that are openly gay with accepting friends and family are generally very happy people with strong relationships with their loved ones and lead quite normal lives.

It's those that are forced to hide their true selves that end up getting into trouble.  And then you turn around and try to use that as evidence against the cause of gay rights?  Please.

But I'm rambling and your'e not going to change your mind.  I just hope somebody else can read this and appreciate it a little bit.

[Ban my account ffs!]

It’s true. I know it sounds a bit clique to say that, but even major leaders of the APA, especially recently, have attested to this fact. The APA is falling apart, for crying out loud. It has lost a lot of respect in the scientific community.

The APA is falling apart? Since when? Up until now I've received no information in regards to this.

Meanwhile, nobody in the scientific community respects NARTH and the organizations you support.

(the word you're looking for there is cliché, btw)

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Of course being homosexual doesn't make one happy. Neither does being straight last time I checked - there are lots of miserable straight people in the world with no psychological disorders.

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Statistically speaking? Where the hell did this statistic come from?

Anyways, a lot of fathers have a stigma against homosexuals, which couldn't possibly come from religious teachings. That couldn't possibly affect how a straight parent might relate to a homosexually oriented child.

He's a reactionary. 

[Associate Justice PiT]

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If this is the case, how come Buddhists in Tibet are happy? They have endured countless degrees of persecution in the last 50 years, and yet they continue what they are doing, and are happy. Another instance comes into mind—I live in San Francisco. How come San Francisco, the most gay-friendly city in the nation, also has one of the highest rates of violent crime and promiscuity among homosexuals in the nation?

     One of the central tenets of Buddhism is learning to endure physical suffering & gaining spiritual fortitude. Just because Buddhist monks can deal with being persecuted, doesn't mean everyone can.

     As for hate crimes, just because San Francisco is accepting of homosexuality, doesn't mean every single person in the city thinks it's alright.

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I would be quite content equating in terms of societal threats homosexuality with alcoholism. However, there is something that makes homosexuality worse. First of all, sex is far more addictive than alcohol. According to a recent study done by psychologists, over 60% of American men are addicted to sex. Whether this is through pornography, promiscuous sex, or masturbation, this is the case. Second, homosexuality is more threatening because there is an entire culture that surrounds it that lures people in. I have many friends in the psychological community and with those who work with homosexuals, and I can attest to the fact that I know of situations—both through personal experience and word of mouth—of young homosexual men being lured into the homosexual lifestyle, only to die from HIV or other STDs at a very young age. My own uncle is HIV positive from living a homosexual lifestyle, and he entered it in high school. In my uncles case, and as is often the case, adults brought him into the lifestyle when he was an emotional and unstable teenager. Thus, I believe the homosexual lifestyle to be much more threatening than alcoholism. At least everyone recognizes that alcoholism is not ideal.

     I haven't experienced this "culture" luring me in. I have many good friends that are homosexual, but neither me nor any of my heterosexual friends have ever felt the desire to become homosexual because of it.

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I have used reason to explain everything I have said. What magical creature are you talking about? You seem to be the one in a fantasy.

Dude gays can't help it. I think that is one fact you need to understand. Just like you and I are attracted to women, they are attracted to men. If they pretended to like women, their lives would be worthless and meaningless and they would be hurting themselves( which you think homosexuality does to them).

     This makes me want to start a poll asking people if they feel that their sexual orientation is a choice. As I said, I have never met anyone who said that they were straight or gay because they chose to be that way.

[Brambila]

Keep up with the name calling. It's very productive in this discussion.

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Sbane, you’re making two false presumptions:

1)   I don’t think that gays can’t help themselves feel attracted to men. I know they do, but this doesn’t mean they have to act out on those attractions.
2)   That homosexual men should act like straight men. I never said this. In fact, this could be detrimental, as these kinds of false-relationships ruin marriages.

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If you were involved in the psychology community, you would know that the APA is losing respect, because of their poor methods of research. The scientific community had not respected NARTH because the APA condemned it. This is now changing, because NARTH is doing actual research.

And thanks for correcting my mistake.

As far as statistics goes, here are some:

 Child  Abuse and Neglect found that 42% of homosexual men were sexually abused as children. There are other studies that talk about this. Here is one interesting article:

http://narth.com/docs/fathers.html

As for everyone else:

In summary, there are various studies to prove my point that homosexuality is disordered. Here’s a recent study done by the University of Illinois that proves it:

http://narth.com/docs/concluded.html

There are also various other studies. One can look up any post I’ve made concerning the issue on this board to show the evidence. Also, I speak from experience—I work closely with psychologists, my father is a psychologist, and many friends and a family member are homosexual, and all of them fit the description of your typical, poor father-son relationship, leading to a desire to be close to men in an attempt to seek masculinity, but only being able to identify with men through sexual intercourse. This also explains why the Journal of Sex Research says that the average homosexual man is several times more promiscuous than the average heterosexual man.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I don't know if its a coincidence, but when I clicked on this thread all 5 of the banner ads had to do with gays.  Strange

[Associate Justice PiT]

I don't know if its a coincidence, but when I clicked on this thread all 5 of the banner ads had to do with gays.  Strange

     I've noticed that happen sometimes.

[Хahar 🤔]

Oh. Brambila's back and hasn't changed...

I've always found his rants amusing. I'm quite pleased that he's back.

[John Dibble]

If you were involved in the psychology community, you would know that the APA is losing respect, because of their poor methods of research. The scientific community had not respected NARTH because the APA condemned it. This is now changing, because NARTH is doing actual research.

Oh please. You keep saying how in touch you are with the psychology community - well then name some names. I would bet money all of your so called pscyhology buddies who denounce are rather devout Christians, and I'd bet a few are conversion therapists as well. They have probably been among those who denounced the APA ever since it changed it's tune.

Do you really think that any serious studies were done back in the day to say that homosexuals were actually disordered? Of course not - the entire concept came because of preconceived notions coming from religious influences. When actual study was done the APA changed it's position because it would have been intellectually dishonest not to do so. NARTH on the other hand maintains it's prejudices and makes it's conclusions long before any of it's so called studies are completed.

[riceowl]

I think the original poster just wanted to start a thread with the word "buttsex" in it.  ;-)

Buttsex is the most over rated of all sex.

How would you know?

No...wait...there's no answer that isn't going to gross somebody out here.

I can only imagine how bad it would be to be a catcher, but I was specifically referring to pitching as being over rated.

wrong, they're both fun.

and it's a combination of 2, 3, and 5.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

wrong, they're both fun.

and it's a combination of 2, 3, and 5.

Come on, now.  Don't give away all our secrets.

[Sbane]

Keep up with the name calling. It's very productive in this discussion.

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Sbane, you’re making two false presumptions:

1)   I don’t think that gays can’t help themselves feel attracted to men. I know they do, but this doesn’t mean they have to act out on those attractions.
2)   That homosexual men should act like straight men. I never said this. In fact, this could be detrimental, as these kinds of false-relationships ruin marriages.

So then what are gays supposed to do? Do you think you can somehow take the "gay" out of them? It's how they are wired man and I will agree that it is not natural(in the darwinian sense), but why is it bad? It's not like gay people are out there trying to convert others. I have been friends with gay people and never have they tried doing anything to me than just be good friends. I also don't understand the problem with them "acting out" on their attractions.

[Brambila]

If you were involved in the psychology community, you would know that the APA is losing respect, because of their poor methods of research. The scientific community had not respected NARTH because the APA condemned it. This is now changing, because NARTH is doing actual research.

Oh please. You keep saying how in touch you are with the psychology community - well then name some names. I would bet money all of your so called pscyhology buddies who denounce are rather devout Christians, and I'd bet a few are conversion therapists as well. They have probably been among those who denounced the APA ever since it changed it's tune.

While I'll admit that most of the psychologists I know are Christian or Catholic, none of them are conversion therapists. But this doesn't disqualify anything of what I've said-- most of them work for publicly-funded clinics such as UCSF, others are in private practices-- and all of them are licensed.

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Also, read this TIME article, which explains what happened. This was a political stunt-- their studies to support this claim were not scientific. The psychological community VOTED to change their position. Psychology isn't a democracy-- it should be scientific, not populist. Interestingly enough, Robert Spitzer, who was the head of the entire campaign arguing that homosexuality was not a disorder, also published an article in the last few years in the psychology journal, Archives of Sexual Behavior that homosexuality can be reversed.

Read what Robert Perloff (former APA President, 1985) says here. The APA is biased. They don't want to have any options open for repairative therapy, even if there is scientific data to support it.

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I think people with Same-sex attractions need to see a psychologist or counselor just as a pedophile or somebody with Oedipus complex needs to. As I said earlier to John Dibble, even the man who was the head of the entire movement to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder, Dr. Robert Spitzer, has recently admitted that homosexuality can be reversed.

[afleitch]

If you were involved in the psychology community, you would know that the APA is losing respect, because of their poor methods of research. The scientific community had not respected NARTH because the APA condemned it. This is now changing, because NARTH is doing actual research.

Oh please. You keep saying how in touch you are with the psychology community - well then name some names. I would bet money all of your so called pscyhology buddies who denounce are rather devout Christians, and I'd bet a few are conversion therapists as well. They have probably been among those who denounced the APA ever since it changed it's tune.

While I'll admit that most of the psychologists I know are Christian or Catholic, none of them are conversion therapists. But this doesn't disqualify anything of what I've said-- most of them work for publicly-funded clinics such as UCSF, others are in private practices-- and all of them are licensed.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Also, read this TIME article, which explains what happened. This was a political stunt-- their studies to support this claim were not scientific. The psychological community VOTED to change their position. Psychology isn't a democracy-- it should be scientific, not populist. Interestingly enough, Robert Spitzer, who was the head of the entire campaign arguing that homosexuality was not a disorder, also published an article in the last few years in the psychology journal, Archives of Sexual Behavior that homosexuality can be reversed.

Read what Robert Perloff (former APA President, 1985) says here. The APA is biased. They don't want to have any options open for repairative therapy, even if there is scientific data to support it.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I think people with Same-sex attractions need to see a psychologist or counselor just as a pedophile or somebody with Oedipus complex needs to. As I said earlier to John Dibble, even the man who was the head of the entire movement to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder, Dr. Robert Spitzer, has recently admitted that homosexuality can be reversed.

^^^^^

Bullsh-t

I'm known to be someone who usually has something far more point by point constructive than that, but I am not going to pay the slightest attention to pseudopschological bull.

[John Dibble]

While I'll admit that most of the psychologists I know are Christian or Catholic, none of them are conversion therapists. But this doesn't disqualify anything of what I've said-- most of them work for publicly-funded clinics such as UCSF, others are in private practices-- and all of them are licensed.

They're liscensed, fine. I didn't say they weren't. Still, I don't think your anecdotal exposure to the pscyhological community is evidence of the opinion of that community at large. Keep in mind that in most scientific communities those who think alike tend to be a part of eachother's circles. I imagine most of those you know were not met independently, but rather introduced to you from some common threads. As such it wouldn't be out of the question if they had similar opinions on the APA. (btw, there are two APAs, the Psychiatric and Psychological, so I'm going to stop using acronyms after this because it gets confusing) I have not heard denunciation of either APA at large by those communities, so I'm not inclined to believe there is one.

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Ok, let me get this straight. In 1973 the board of trustees for the American Psychiatric Association voted to remove homosexuality from the list of disorders. You say this was bad, as they were going against the real wishes of the pscyhiatric community. Those who disagreed with the board petitioned and wrote angry letters to express their disagreement. So, given this was a contentious issue they decided they would let the members of the society, most of whom I assume were educated and liscensed pschiatrists perfectly capable of examining all studies and evidence compiled thus far in order to reach a professional opinion, to vote on the organizations stated opinion. The majority (58% in this case) agreed, so the board's decision did represent the majority of the organization.

And when the vote comes back against you, you say it's bad. So what the hell do you want? The board made a decision, your side said it didn't reflect the opinion of the community, and when the community showed by vote that they did agree you bitch about it. Yes, psychology and psychiatry aren't democracies, they are sciences. But in every science there is a great deal of disagreement. Contradicting theories can't all all be valid - one of them is right or none of them are right. In this case the board deciding wasn't enough, so they put it up to the entire association to decide and the majority's professional opinion after consideration was against the minority's professional opinion.

Science is not a democracy, but it isn't a dictatorship either. You have to work to get your ideas accepted by other professionals in the community for them to be considered as true. Obviously in this case the majority accepted the work of those in favor of removing homosexuality from the list of disorders over the work of those who didn't.

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And what, NARTH isn't biased? Please. People are biased towards their own opinions and beliefs - is this a new concept to you? Yes, every American Psychological Association president has his or her own biases because of his or her own opinions. It's good they change presidents every year so one individual's biases can't fester for too long, now isn't it? I doubt NARTH makes that kind of change so often.

[Sbane]

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I think people with Same-sex attractions need to see a psychologist or counselor just as a pedophile or somebody with Oedipus complex needs to. As I said earlier to John Dibble, even the man who was the head of the entire movement to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder, Dr. Robert Spitzer, has recently admitted that homosexuality can be reversed.

Unless you go in and change their DNA, which is impossible currently, homosexuality cannot be reversed. It can be repressed, sure, but not reversed. And equating homosexuality with pedophilia is disgusting.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

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I think people with Same-sex attractions need to see a psychologist or counselor just as a pedophile or somebody with Oedipus complex needs to. As I said earlier to John Dibble, even the man who was the head of the entire movement to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder, Dr. Robert Spitzer, has recently admitted that homosexuality can be reversed.

Unless you go in and change their DNA, which is impossible currently, homosexuality cannot be reversed. It can be repressed, sure, but not reversed. And equating homosexuality with pedophilia is disgusting.

Please don't assume that homosexuality is 100% genetic.  Simply because it cannot be changed does not mean that it is entirely predetermined by genes.

[Sbane]

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I think people with Same-sex attractions need to see a psychologist or counselor just as a pedophile or somebody with Oedipus complex needs to. As I said earlier to John Dibble, even the man who was the head of the entire movement to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder, Dr. Robert Spitzer, has recently admitted that homosexuality can be reversed.

Unless you go in and change their DNA, which is impossible currently, homosexuality cannot be reversed. It can be repressed, sure, but not reversed. And equating homosexuality with pedophilia is disgusting.

Please don't assume that homosexuality is 100% genetic.  Simply because it cannot be changed does not mean that it is entirely predetermined by genes.

Sure your environment always shapes who you are. But your statement is the same as saying heterosexuality isn't 100% genetic. My point is that whatever % is genetic is the same for homosexuals and heteros.

[afleitch]

Sure your environment always shapes who you are. But your statement is the same as saying heterosexuality isn't 100% genetic. My point is that whatever % is genetic is the same for homosexuals and heteros.

That's a fair point. There are similar, but different combinations of genetic, environmental and possibly pre-natal factors that influence sexuality full stop, inlcuding whether you end up straight. It's increasingly considered unhelpful and generally speaking incorrect to suggest that we are 'default' straight when all chips are down until one moves. We are not really anything by default (with the possible exemption of 'female' at the early stages of zygomatic and embryonic development until sex is determined, although for some the physical and psychological defenition of sex is not clear even after birth)