Non-Mormons in Utah
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cwelsch
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« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2004, 12:13:16 AM »

You're getting into insults and being personal about it.  If you have serious doctrinal questions to debate, then leave the insult stuff out of it.  Don't call them a cult or insinuate they are murderers and stuff.  Just focus on the doctrine if that's you interest.

But it strikes me an awful lot as just trying to drag down a group of people for being too different from your group of people.  Which I should expect from a neo-Confederate with a picture of Wallace in his sig, but still.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2004, 12:19:42 AM »

You're getting into insults and being personal about it.  If you have serious doctrinal questions to debate, then leave the insult stuff out of it.  Don't call them a cult or insinuate they are murderers and stuff.  Just focus on the doctrine if that's you interest.

But it strikes me an awful lot as just trying to drag down a group of people for being too different from your group of people.  Which I should expect from a neo-Confederate with a picture of Wallace in his sig, but still.

Get off your high horse already.

Most major Christian Leaders consider the Mormons a cult due to the fact that their beliefs are no where near Orthodox Christian beliefs. And like I said earlier a cult does not always have negative conotations. Yes, the fact still remains that the Mormons in 1857 killed a group of westernbound settlers at Mountain Meadows plus their were several small incidents between settlers and Mormons. I gave the link to that and the History Channel did a documentary on it. I was refuting his argument about, "You can't question us because we have always been beat up as a group". Sometimes historical facts are not always nice and may sound like personal insults. But the fact remains...they are FACTS. Your last paragraph is P.C. BS which isn't even worthy of my time debating you on because you are so blinded by your "knowledge".
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StatesRights
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« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2004, 12:43:28 AM »

Cult takes on many different interpretations :

Cult
By its primary dictionary definition, the term cult just means a system of religious beliefs or rituals. It is based on a farming term in Latin meaning cultivation. Sociologists and anthropologists sometimes use the term cult to describe religious structure or belief patterns with meanings (usually non-pejorative) unique to their disciplines. In modern usage, the term cult is often used by the general public to describe any religious group they view as strange or dangerous. Thus, cult can describe religious leaders or organizations that employ abusive, manipulative, or illegal control over their followers’ lives. In addition to these usages, Christians generally have a doctrinal component to their use of the word. Cult in this sense, is a counterfeit or serious deviation from the doctrines of classical Christianity.
[/b]

Here are some sites stating Mormonism as a cult.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/mormon.htm

Another link :

http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/christianorcult.htm

Another link :

http://www.bidstrup.com/mormon.htm

Another link :

http://www.apocryphile.net/jrm/articles/mormon.html

Another link :

http://www.cc.utah.edu/~njb4/mormoncult.html

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StatesRights
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« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2004, 12:51:50 AM »

Here is another link :

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia-top10cults.html
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StatesRights
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« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2004, 01:01:27 AM »


You can spout off all you want States, the fact remains, we follow exactly what the Bible says, and you can't disprove it other than just saying, "Well top historians say that the Church is a cult."  As I keep saying, people that hate the Church don't leave it alone, they attack it and attack it.  By your comments it's only enforcing the fact that you hate the Church, and that you can't leave it alone.

I don't "hate" anything. I think that term is being flung around a little to liberally by you. I am disagreeing with your churches doctrine as it is completely contradictary to Orthodox Chrisitianity. Please all you keep doing is falling back on the argument, "We were persecuted leave us alone". That's the same lame excuse Indians, Catholics and other Christian Denominations, and Jews use.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2004, 01:06:30 AM »

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.


JOSEPH SMITH.

http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1

I agree with most of this my main arguments are that :

-The book of Mormon is false doctrine as stated in Galatians.
-The gifts (laying of hands, etc) disappeared once "that which is perfect" came. ie the written scripture. See "The Love Chapter" in the bible

A lot of that list is right on however.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2004, 01:09:16 AM »


You can spout off all you want States, the fact remains, we follow exactly what the Bible says, and you can't disprove it other than just saying, "Well top historians say that the Church is a cult."  As I keep saying, people that hate the Church don't leave it alone, they attack it and attack it.  By your comments it's only enforcing the fact that you hate the Church, and that you can't leave it alone.

I don't "hate" anything. I think that term is being flung around a little to liberally by you. I am disagreeing with your churches doctrine as it is completely contradictary to Orthodox Chrisitianity. Please all you keep doing is falling back on the argument, "We were persecuted leave us alone". That's the same lame excuse Indians, Catholics and other Christian Denominations, and Jews use.

I think cult is being flung around too liberally by you, and let me remind you that it was you who brought up the New Meadows Massacre, and it was you that started arguing that the church persecuted others, I am simply following you as you change the subject.  Also, Indians were persecuted, more than the LDS Church for sure, they lost millions.  Catholics were persecuted as well, still are to some degree.  Jehovah Witnesses are persecuted, and the Jews are as well.  They are all valid arguments and I'm surprised that you are making fun of them because of it.

Like I said earlier, I was not using 'cult' in a negative way. Compared to Orthodox Christianity they are a cult. I am making fun of no one. I am simply stating that falling back on the old argument of "we were persecuted we are immune" is a weak argument. I do not deny the facts of what happened or is happenening to any of these groups. But its just like when you question Judiasm or the state of Israel you are automatically labeled "Anti-Semite".
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StatesRights
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« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2004, 01:11:22 AM »

I agree with most of this my main arguments are that :

-The book of Mormon is false doctrine as stated in Galatians.
-The gifts (laying of hands, etc) disappeared once "that which is perfect" came. ie the written scripture. See "The Love Chapter" in the bible

A lot of that list is right on however.

Galatians did not state that, as I pointed out earlier, but you never answered to it.  Of course that list is correct in what we believe, Joseph Smith wrote it himself.

Joseph Smith plagarised it basically, because a lot of that is already written in the bible. Most Christians wrongly interpret the bible so badly your list seems to be wrong by their standards.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2004, 01:17:26 AM »

Like I said earlier, I was not using 'cult' in a negative way.

Really so this isn't negative in anyway?


Compared to Orthodox Christianity they are a cult. I am making fun of no one. I am simply stating that falling back on the old argument of "we were persecuted we are immune" is a weak argument. I do not deny the facts of what happened or is happenening to any of these groups. But its just like when you question Judiasm or the state of Israel you are automatically labeled "Anti-Semite".

Also, as I stated above, you started that part of the discussion when you opened up the New Meadows Massacre, and I was defending my Church.  BTW, I never bring that stuff up in a discussion, that we are immune because we were persecuted, I only bring it up when it's a topic, and when people are stating incorrect things about the Church.  Other cases, randomly such as relating it to another thing...Anyway I don't consider my Church a cult because it's organization and beliefs are exactly what the original Christian Church was.

Like I said way back somewhere. I highly admire your religions morals and values. I agree with a lot of their beliefs about God but the sticking points I have are the book of Mormon and some of their odd traditions. (ie wearing white underclothes into a temple) I know this because a friend of mine is a devout Mormon and he was telling me about some of the tradition.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2004, 01:20:21 AM »

I agree with most of this my main arguments are that :

-The book of Mormon is false doctrine as stated in Galatians.
-The gifts (laying of hands, etc) disappeared once "that which is perfect" came. ie the written scripture. See "The Love Chapter" in the bible

A lot of that list is right on however.

Galatians did not state that, as I pointed out earlier, but you never answered to it.  Of course that list is correct in what we believe, Joseph Smith wrote it himself.

Joseph Smith plagarised it basically, because a lot of that is already written in the bible. Most Christians wrongly interpret the bible so badly your list seems to be wrong by their standards.

Is it written in the Bible as "The Articles of Faith," or plainly listed out like that?  Also, how can you plagiarize something when it's not written in the exact words?  Sidenote: The Articles of Faith are our most basic forms of beliefs, so that list is what the Church believes.

The problem I have is church leaders throughout history have pulled phrases and terms out of the bible to suit their own sects certain beliefs. I would go to a church that would read right out of the bible and state, "We do not need to give you doctrine or a list of beliefs as everything you need to know about our faith is already written in the bible." The Church of Christ is pretty close to this.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2004, 01:24:48 AM »

I agree with most of this my main arguments are that :

-The book of Mormon is false doctrine as stated in Galatians.
-The gifts (laying of hands, etc) disappeared once "that which is perfect" came. ie the written scripture. See "The Love Chapter" in the bible

A lot of that list is right on however.

Galatians did not state that, as I pointed out earlier, but you never answered to it.  Of course that list is correct in what we believe, Joseph Smith wrote it himself.

Joseph Smith plagarised it basically, because a lot of that is already written in the bible. Most Christians wrongly interpret the bible so badly your list seems to be wrong by their standards.

Is it written in the Bible as "The Articles of Faith," or plainly listed out like that?  Also, how can you plagiarize something when it's not written in the exact words?  Sidenote: The Articles of Faith are our most basic forms of beliefs, so that list is what the Church believes.

The problem I have is church leaders throughout history have pulled phrases and terms out of the bible to suit their own sects certain beliefs. I would go to a church that would read right out of the bible and state, "We do not need to give you doctrine or a list of beliefs as everything you need to know about our faith is already written in the bible." The Church of Christ is pretty close to this.

The Articles of Faith were written to help people understand what we believe in, and as you saw in the Articles of Faith, we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it's translated correctly.

Not saying I don't like that but my feeling is it's kind of redundant because the bible is already written for everyone to understand. From the common man all the way up to the church leaders.
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Brambila
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« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2004, 05:56:37 PM »

With all due respect to mormons, I don't believe their religion is a "traditional Christian religion". I don't believe they are your typical Protestant sect. They obviously sprang out of Puritanism, which explains their moral lives, and their religious beliefs are a mixture of Christianity and Freemasonry. I consider them Christians, as I don't believe that Christians are constricted to those who follow the trinity exactly, but those who believe that Christ is God, which Mormons believe. Jehovah's Wittnesses now, are a completely different story. They are clearly not Christian, and have very, very, very awkward beliefs, and a VERY strict moral code, that's actually quite strange.

Now why do I say there's a connection between Mormonism and Freemasonry? Joseph Smith was a freemason (and a puritan), and it's likely that it influenced the religion. Afterall, freemasonry has some symbolic beliefs of egyptian Gods, and mythological places, etc.

A lot of people misinterpret Mormon beliefs on becoming God- I believe that their philosophy is the following: Only perfect people can become Gods. However, that can be interpreted in a different way, that rather, God is perfect, and nobody else is. If you were to be perfect, you would be God. Which is reasonable. In Catholicism, for instance, God is LITERALLY all goodness. Now, Catholics obviously believe that Mary was concieved without original sin, and John the Baptist was born without original sin, so we disagree that if you're perfect you become a God, but it's certainly close to logical. Wink

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JNB
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« Reply #62 on: August 30, 2004, 06:27:41 PM »


    People need to just back down and read the Douay-Rheims Psalm 42.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2004, 06:36:47 PM »


    People need to just back down and read the Douay-Rheims Psalm 42.

Douay-Rheims?
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MN-Troy
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« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2004, 07:55:56 PM »

how do they vote? Who won the Non-Mormon vote in 2000?

I know a person living in Utah who happens to be agnostic. I believe he voted for Bush in 2000.
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English
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« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2004, 06:02:28 AM »

I must confess I know nothing about mormons. Do they only exist in the US? I don't think you get them in Britain. Do they still have polygamy?
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StatesRights
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« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2004, 03:29:17 PM »

I must confess I know nothing about mormons. Do they only exist in the US? I don't think you get them in Britain. Do they still have polygamy?

There are actually more members of the Church oustide the US than inside.  And yes, we have congregations in Great Britain, and no we do not practice polygamy.

Some mormons still practice polygamy.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2004, 03:52:06 PM »

I must confess I know nothing about mormons. Do they only exist in the US? I don't think you get them in Britain. Do they still have polygamy?

There are actually more members of the Church oustide the US than inside.  And yes, we have congregations in Great Britain, and no we do not practice polygamy.

Some mormons still practice polygamy.

You can't be a member of the Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and practice polygamy.  It's as simple as that, any members that are found to practice polygamy are excommunicated.  So no, there are no members of the Church that practice polygamy.


Thats the publicized account.
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Redefeatbush04
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« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2004, 02:43:28 PM »

Wait so they don't practice polygamy?
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Alcon
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« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2004, 02:52:52 PM »


No, it's illegal in Utah.

I think that the non-Mormon vote probably depends. The Christians probably vote moderately Bush. The rest probably would be quite Democratic.

I knew a Jewish guy who grew up in Utah. Let's just say that it was an interesting experience.
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rbt48
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« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2004, 06:54:44 PM »

I've always considered Mormons to be Protestant.  They are Christians who aren't Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, or Coptic Christians.  In the broad playing field of American politics and religion, that equates to Protestant.
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J. J.
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« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2004, 11:50:14 PM »

Under the strictest definition of the term, yes the Church would be considered Protestant.  Considering the term is actually "...a member or adherent of any denomination of the Western Christian church that rejects papal authority..."  Even that, with the words "the Western Christian church," could most certainly be interpreted as the Catholic Church alone.  Which the LDS Church did not derive in any way from the Catholic Church.

So, Protestant Churches are usually considered to be those that came straight from the Catholic Church in the 16th and 17th centuries.  In that case, the LDS Church is not Protestant.


You'd have extend that into the 18th Century.  Methodists were not a separate denomination until the late 1700's.  Methodists are generally considered Protestants, though their "roots" are in the Anglican Church.
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George W. Bush
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« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2004, 08:27:55 PM »

Can someone plese tell me how to Put Photos at the bottom of my posts?
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Ats
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« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2004, 07:41:29 PM »

I knew a Jewish guy who grew up in Utah. Let's just say that it was an interesting experience.

Well the Chinese word for Jewish sounds almost exactly like Utah.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2004, 12:19:49 AM »

The LDS does not practice polygamy, hasn't done for over a hundred years.
There are mormon splinter groups who still practice polygamy, illegally.
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