This isn't about seating Michigan and Florida...

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

The (hopefully soon to be "ex")party leaders in FL and MI didn't think the DNC had the balls to punish them.

Too bad the DNC didn't have the balls to punish IA & NH too.

Slaying the giants shows you have balls......slaying the pissants does not.

[Keystone Phil]

Because, as Smash has said, if the DNC doesn't lay down some ground rules then everyone will just be continuously leapfrogging.

I think that's really exaggerrated but oh well.

Why is it exaggerated?

Isn't that exactly what FL and MI tried to do?

if they got away with it, and got the extra influence that came with it, why wouldn't other states do the same?

Because few states were talking about moving it up before Super Tuesday even before the DNC spoke out against it (as far as I remember).

Why don't we have the 2012 primaries now while we're at it?

Seriously, this stupid Michigan and Florida is only being brought up because it will hurt Obama.

Or because some of us said this was stupid before we knew who it would hurt.


I think a lot of people are still confused about what I'm saying. Sure, the DNC leaders can make their own rules but that doesn't mean that the rules were necessary or right.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Phil is right on.  The question here isn't whether or not the DNC has a right to punish states that break the rules.  The question here is the sentence - Florida and Michigan stole a loaf of bread.  The RNC gave them a short prison term, the DNC gave them the death penalty.

Almost two million people went to the polls to cast ballots in Florida.  What do their votes mean?  Why should these millions of voters have zero input on who their nominee is - while a couple of caucus goers in Nebraska get their votes counted?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Phil is right on.  The question here isn't whether or not the DNC has a right to punish states that break the rules.  The question here is the sentence - Florida and Michigan stole a loaf of bread.  The RNC gave them a short prison term, the DNC gave them the death penalty.

Almost two million people went to the polls to cast ballots in Florida.  What do their votes mean?  Why should these millions of voters have zero input on who their nominee is - while a couple of caucus goers in Nebraska get their votes counted?

The DNC gave them only twice as long a prison term as the RNC.

[bgwah]

So the Republican Party based their nominee off 39 states, and the Democratic Party is likely basing theirs off 48.

Wait, where is Phil's thread about the ignored Republican states. Huh, what are you saying?!?!? Don and Phil are hacks? No way!! Really? Well I'm shocked!

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Phil is right on.  The question here isn't whether or not the DNC has a right to punish states that break the rules.  The question here is the sentence - Florida and Michigan stole a loaf of bread.  The RNC gave them a short prison term, the DNC gave them the death penalty.

Almost two million people went to the polls to cast ballots in Florida.  What do their votes mean?  Why should these millions of voters have zero input on who their nominee is - while a couple of caucus goers in Nebraska get their votes counted?

The DNC gave them only twice as long a prison term as the RNC.

If you double the number of delegates that the RNC gave to Florida, you equal the number of delegates they would have had originally.

If you double the number of delegates from Florida for the DNC,  how many do you get?

[Keystone Phil]

So the Republican Party based their nominee off 39 states, and the Democratic Party is likely basing theirs off 48.

Uh, and that's not because our party denied 11 states voting rights.

Wait, where is Phil's thread about the ignored Republican states. Huh, what are you saying?!?!? Don and Phil are hacks? No way!! Really? Well I'm shocked!

LOL if you are seriously comparing the "ignored" GOP states to the situation in FL and MI.

Wait...bgwah a fake independent and total Dem hack? No way! Really? Well, I'm shocked.

[Smash255]

Phil is right on.  The question here isn't whether or not the DNC has a right to punish states that break the rules.  The question here is the sentence - Florida and Michigan stole a loaf of bread.  The RNC gave them a short prison term, the DNC gave them the death penalty.

Almost two million people went to the polls to cast ballots in Florida.  What do their votes mean?  Why should these millions of voters have zero input on who their nominee is - while a couple of caucus goers in Nebraska get their votes counted?

Stripping half the delegates would not have really punished them in any real way.  They would have still had more delegates than any of the pre-super Tuesday states and would have been major factors momentum wise heading into the Primary and would have received major attention from the candidates.  So it really would not have been any punishment for breaking the rules.  As far as the people who cast their votes, well these people were told that the votes would not count months before the actual vote itself...

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I wonder how it would be if you were a Florida/Michigan Dem - in a close race to be told by another Democrat who did vote... "tough, the party officials knew what they were doing. You knew your vote didnt count"

[Smash255]

I wonder how it would be if you were a Florida/Michigan Dem - in a close race to be told by another Democrat who did vote... "tough, the party officials knew what they were doing. You knew your vote didnt count"

I'm not saying they shouldn't be upset, but you also have all the people who didn't vote because well they were told it wouldn't count.  The anger in this case should be directed at the people who caused this, the party leaders in FLA & MI, not the DNC for enforcing the rules.

[7,052,770]

I wonder how it would be if you were a Florida/Michigan Dem - in a close race to be told by another Democrat who did vote... "tough, the party officials knew what they were doing. You knew your vote didnt count"

I'm not saying they shouldn't be upset, but you also have all the people who didn't vote because well they were told it wouldn't count.  The anger in this case should be directed at the people who caused this, the party leaders in FLA & MI, not the DNC for enforcing the rules.

How many people who would've normally voted didn't just because they thought it "wouldn't count"?  I think most everyone thought that the votes would eventually count once the nominee was settled.
I hope this fiasco doesn't cost us Michigan in the general election.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I wonder how it would be if you were a Florida/Michigan Dem - in a close race to be told by another Democrat who did vote... "tough, the party officials knew what they were doing. You knew your vote didnt count"

I'm not saying they shouldn't be upset, but you also have all the people who didn't vote because well they were told it wouldn't count.  The anger in this case should be directed at the people who caused this, the party leaders in FLA & MI, not the DNC for enforcing the rules.

How many people who would've normally voted didn't just because they thought it "wouldn't count"?  I think most everyone thought that the votes would eventually count once the nominee was settled.
I hope this fiasco doesn't cost us Michigan in the general election.

Democrat in Michigan: Let's see, I hate John McCain and disagree with him on every political issue, but I'm really pissed about how the DNC treated my state back in January over 10 months ago! I'm voting McCain!

Yeah, I see that as really likely.

[Mr. Morden]

How many people who would've normally voted didn't just because they thought it "wouldn't count"?  I think most everyone thought that the votes would eventually count once the nominee was settled.

Right.  *Once the nominee was settled*.  In other words, once it's established that the votes won't actually influence the outcome.  In that case, what's the point of voting, since the outcome in the state is definitely not going to influence the choice of nominee one way or the other?

[Smash255]

I wonder how it would be if you were a Florida/Michigan Dem - in a close race to be told by another Democrat who did vote... "tough, the party officials knew what they were doing. You knew your vote didnt count"

I'm not saying they shouldn't be upset, but you also have all the people who didn't vote because well they were told it wouldn't count.  The anger in this case should be directed at the people who caused this, the party leaders in FLA & MI, not the DNC for enforcing the rules.

How many people who would've normally voted didn't just because they thought it "wouldn't count"?  I think most everyone thought that the votes would eventually count once the nominee was settled.
I hope this fiasco doesn't cost us Michigan in the general election.

Just look at the vote totals in Florida.  Even at that point in the race where it was a race on both sides, the Dem turnout was FAR higher than the GOP turnout.  In Florida the GOP turnout was 14.01%  higher than the Dem turnout, in MUCH more Republican South Carolina, the dem turnout was 19.73% higher than GOP turnout

[Keystone Phil]

I wonder how it would be if you were a Florida/Michigan Dem - in a close race to be told by another Democrat who did vote... "tough, the party officials knew what they were doing. You knew your vote didnt count"

I'm not saying they shouldn't be upset, but you also have all the people who didn't vote because well they were told it wouldn't count.  The anger in this case should be directed at the people who caused this, the party leaders in FLA & MI, not the DNC for enforcing the rules.

How many people who would've normally voted didn't just because they thought it "wouldn't count"?  I think most everyone thought that the votes would eventually count once the nominee was settled.
I hope this fiasco doesn't cost us Michigan in the general election.

Democrat in Michigan: Let's see, I hate John McCain and disagree with him on every political issue, but I'm really pissed about how the DNC treated my state back in January over 10 months ago! I'm voting McCain!

Yeah, I see that as really likely.

Obama has enough problems with blue collar whites, an obviously strong voting bloc in MI. This doesn't help. I'm not saying McCain is favored to win the state but we really have to wait and see about this one. There might be a sizable amount of Dems that just stay home.

[Flying Dog]

I wonder how it would be if you were a Florida/Michigan Dem - in a close race to be told by another Democrat who did vote... "tough, the party officials knew what they were doing. You knew your vote didnt count"

I'm not saying they shouldn't be upset, but you also have all the people who didn't vote because well they were told it wouldn't count.  The anger in this case should be directed at the people who caused this, the party leaders in FLA & MI, not the DNC for enforcing the rules.

How many people who would've normally voted didn't just because they thought it "wouldn't count"?  I think most everyone thought that the votes would eventually count once the nominee was settled.
I hope this fiasco doesn't cost us Michigan in the general election.

Democrat in Michigan: Let's see, I hate John McCain and disagree with him on every political issue, but I'm really pissed about how the DNC treated my state back in January over 10 months ago! I'm voting McCain!

Yeah, I see that as really likely.

Obama has enough problems with blue collar whites, an obviously strong voting bloc in MI. This doesn't help. I'm not saying McCain is favored to win the state but we really have to wait and see about this one. There might be a sizable amount of Dems that just stay home.

Whether McCain wins Michigan or not, this whole thing won't be the reason why.

[7,052,770]

I wonder how it would be if you were a Florida/Michigan Dem - in a close race to be told by another Democrat who did vote... "tough, the party officials knew what they were doing. You knew your vote didnt count"

I'm not saying they shouldn't be upset, but you also have all the people who didn't vote because well they were told it wouldn't count.  The anger in this case should be directed at the people who caused this, the party leaders in FLA & MI, not the DNC for enforcing the rules.

How many people who would've normally voted didn't just because they thought it "wouldn't count"?  I think most everyone thought that the votes would eventually count once the nominee was settled.
I hope this fiasco doesn't cost us Michigan in the general election.

Democrat in Michigan: Let's see, I hate John McCain and disagree with him on every political issue, but I'm really pissed about how the DNC treated my state back in January over 10 months ago! I'm voting McCain!

Yeah, I see that as really likely.

I'm obviously not talking about people who hate McCain and disagree with him.  I'm talking about people who are tossups and could reasonably go either way.  The DNC's treatment of the state might tip more of them than usual to McCain.

[Хahar 🤔]

Sure, you can say it hurts the peple of Michigan and Florida, but consider this:

When a country does something wrong, you impose sanctions, and thus punish the people for the mistakes of their leader.

Or are you denying the validity of sanctions?

[Keystone Phil]

Sure, you can say it hurts the peple of Michigan and Florida, but consider this:

When a country does something wrong, you impose sanctions, and thus punish the people for the mistakes of their leader.

Or are you denying the validity of sanctions?

Maybe you are still missing the point:

The point for the "sanctions" was RIDICULOUSLY STUPID in the eyes of many. And whether it was appropriate or not, politics is about perception. It simply doesn't look good that the votes from two major states didn't really matter.

[Flying Dog]

You guy's are seriously making a mountain out of a molehill. I live in a highly Catholic, old, blue-dog democrat area. Basically Hillary-land, and nobody cares really. The election in Michigan will be all about guns and the economy. Not whether Michigan Delegates were seated at the Democratic Convention or not.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I just hope the Obama supporters keep this up. If they lose the election, there's no reason to cry about every vote counting.

All I know is if these were Obama states, people would be crying foul and everyone here knows it.

[Flying Dog]

I just hope the Obama supporters keep this up. If they lose the election, there's no reason to cry about every vote counting.

All I know is if these were Obama states, people would be crying foul and everyone here knows it.

I actually think that Obama would have won Michigan if his name was on the Ballot and they actively campaigned here.

Oh, and by the way, Michigan isn't "Hillary's state". She didn't win anything except most useless election award.