Should Minnesota return Virginia's Confederate battle flag?

[Badger]

The 1st Minnesota's flag lost five men carrying it. Every time another man dropped his weapon to carry it on. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the command of their senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands as the largest loss by any surviving U.S military unit in a single day's engagement ever. The unit's colors are displayed in the rotunda of the Minnesota Capitol for public appreciation.

Was reading some history and just wow!.
The day before they captured the flag.

Those tough-as-nails bastards arguably avoided disaster at Gettysburg and, thus, the entire nation.

[Obama-Biden Democrat]

Minnesota should burn the flag.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It's cool that some 13 years later, I can look at my horrible, mangled writing and see little that bothers me that isn't stylistic. It does concern me that I described Robert E. Lee as "anti-slavery" even though he disregarded his father-in-law's will, which manumitted his many slaves, to pay for upkeep for his sisters-in-law. Robert E. Lee, annoyed that the slaves disliked this, proceeded to sell the most "uppity" slaves after putting them in slave jail, which was a grave violation of his mother-in-law's desire to never break-up families. In short: Robert E. Lee deserved to be killed via firing squad for torture and abuse.

One reason why I've maintained strident pro-Unionism over all of these years is that I frequently encountered Confederate apologists, sympathizers and other "Lost Cause" BS as a teen, as Confederate nonsense was normalized 15 years ago. So I still have some residual sense that it's transgressive to argue against the Confederacy and that it's very important also.

Robert E. Lee revisionism is the American equivalent of the "clean Wehrmacht" myth.

What's remarkable about it is that it was widely accepted as fact by fairly serious people even though his actual views were hidden in plain sight. Such was the commitment of the US to American Civil War revisionism!

It's even more incredible since there's not really much of an excuse for it. "Clean Wehrmacht" was widely believed until about the 90s because Germany wanted to be able to pretend that very few of its citizenry and their fathers and grandfathers at a later time weren't guilty of war crimes, it was a cope lie that eventually fell apart. Robert E. Lee was a blatant enemy of the United States. In just about any other country his equivalent would be regarded as one of the great villains of its history. And funnily enough much like the anti-Lincoln talking points that wokesters now parrot as justification to demonize him (because they can't stand the thought of anything anywhere being named after or honoring a white man), it's rooted in Lost Causer propaganda.

[leonardothered]

Hell no, it's a proud moment in the history of the Union. They defeated a confederate army, a nation that was in open war with the United States. I wouldn't complain about the flag being in a Virginia museum either, context permitting. It's a literal piece of the fabric of history.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

It's cool that some 13 years later, I can look at my horrible, mangled writing and see little that bothers me that isn't stylistic. It does concern me that I described Robert E. Lee as "anti-slavery" even though he disregarded his father-in-law's will, which manumitted his many slaves, to pay for upkeep for his sisters-in-law. Robert E. Lee, annoyed that the slaves disliked this, proceeded to sell the most "uppity" slaves after putting them in slave jail, which was a grave violation of his mother-in-law's desire to never break-up families. In short: Robert E. Lee deserved to be killed via firing squad for torture and abuse.

One reason why I've maintained strident pro-Unionism over all of these years is that I frequently encountered Confederate apologists, sympathizers and other "Lost Cause" BS as a teen, as Confederate nonsense was normalized 15 years ago. So I still have some residual sense that it's transgressive to argue against the Confederacy and that it's very important also.

Robert E. Lee revisionism is the American equivalent of the "clean Wehrmacht" myth.

What's remarkable about it is that it was widely accepted as fact by fairly serious people even though his actual views were hidden in plain sight. Such was the commitment of the US to American Civil War revisionism!

Then there's General Sherman, who happened to be a white supremacist who was the first President of the Louisiana state university.

Considering that Sherman issued Special Order 15, which confiscated ~400000 acres of land, cutting into 40 acre parcels that were then given to freedmen to farm, I fail to see why his personal views about black people in the antebellum period are relevant. Further, Sherman never owned slaves, was not fond of slavery and was never part of slave society, even if he was fond of the South. In this way, he was similar to Grant, who married the daughter of a plantation owner and even briefly owned a slave that was given to him by his father-in-law (!) but who clearly had a lot of disdain for slavery because he manumitted that slave. Grant was also known to not give his wife's slaves any orders, he refused to discipline them.

In the final analysis, the typical Union officer was not chiefly motivated by abolitionism, though more than a few were, and was generally racist, as was common at the time, but next to none of them approved of slavery and most found it vile, a viewpoint that became stronger as the war dragged on. In contrast, the typical Confederate officer owned many slaves!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

FWIW I actually do find this story a bit odd, because the flag isn't kept in a museum or anything. It's in a historical archive where it's store in a very carefully controlled environment and it's possible no living person has seen the flag, a Star Tribune article about this once said that the flag is "believed" to be heavily blood stained. No known photos of it exist.

Obviously I'm still opposed to relinquishing it, but sheesh, I'm sure you could put it in special controlled conditions in a glass case at a museum at least.

[Ferguson97]

If the Confederate flag really is the South's "heritage" then beating them in the war and taking their battle flags is the North's heritage.

Keep the flag. Never return it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I know this is an old thread, but who actually has the flag?
Is it in a museum in Minnesota?

The Minnesota Historical Society has it, in an undisclosed location. However despite my earlier post I was a bit wrong, the flag is occasional taken out for display, and there are photos of it (one was used in the meme.) The "believed to be bloodstained" wording is because it has never been tested for blood.

The sensitivity of the issue is possibly why it's not in a museum full time. The MHS keeps its exact location in the archive drawers confidential for "security purposes."

[beaver2.0]

Why is this coming back now? 

My opinion on this issue is that the guys that won it in battle have every right to keep it.

[GregTheGreat657]

I agree with you, BRTD. We should burn that flag

[Big Abraham]

Don't burn it, don't return it.

[Torie]

The 1st Minnesota's flag lost five men carrying it. Every time another man dropped his weapon to carry it on. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the command of their senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands as the largest loss by any surviving U.S military unit in a single day's engagement ever. The unit's colors are displayed in the rotunda of the Minnesota Capitol for public appreciation.

Was reading some history and just wow!.
The day before they captured the flag.

Those tough-as-nails bastards arguably avoided disaster at Gettysburg and, thus, the entire nation.

Did I ever post about my Gettysburg story? No, I know I am old, but hard as it may be to believe, I was not actually in the zip code during the battle. But I was there vicariously with my retired colonel tour guide whom I had retained to show me the real estate for 2 or 3 hours. He told me the real reason Pickett's charge up Cemetery Hill failed with great passion

[DaleCooper]

Don't burn it, don't return it.

I'm getting extremely disturbed by the calls for censoring or even outright destroying historical artifacts these days. I don't like political hysteria, but it's gotten to the point where I think it's undeniable that there is something of a desire for an American Cultural Revolution amongst the Democratic Party these days.

As for the Confederate Flag, it belongs in a museum.

[Big Abraham]

Don't burn it, don't return it.

I'm getting extremely disturbed by the calls for censoring or even outright destroying historical artifacts these days. I don't like political hysteria, but it's gotten to the point where I think it's undeniable that there is something of a desire for an American Cultural Revolution amongst the Democratic Party these days.

As for the Confederate Flag, it belongs in a museum.

Yes I agree, especially in this particular interest. This specific flag (not just the VA Battle Flag in general) has an interesting history and story behind it. Destroying it is nothing more than pure iconoclasm.

[Schiff for Senate]

The flag is some 160 years old at this point; burning it will do nothing good aside from destroying a historical artifact and probably stoking more racial tension (disgruntled white southerners get upset over it). It belongs in a museum - preferably in MN, but VA is fine too.

[Indy Texas]

No, it should be prominently displayed in the Minnesota capitol or a public museum as evidence of how the low-energy losers in Virginia got so owned in the Civil War that they even managed to get their flag stolen.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

No, it should be prominently displayed in the Minnesota capitol or a public museum as evidence of how the low-energy losers in Virginia got so owned in the Civil War that they even managed to get their flag stolen.

I concur in the result here.

[Badger]

The 1st Minnesota's flag lost five men carrying it. Every time another man dropped his weapon to carry it on. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the command of their senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands as the largest loss by any surviving U.S military unit in a single day's engagement ever. The unit's colors are displayed in the rotunda of the Minnesota Capitol for public appreciation.

Was reading some history and just wow!.
The day before they captured the flag.

Those tough-as-nails bastards arguably avoided disaster at Gettysburg and, thus, the entire nation.

Did I ever post about my Gettysburg story? No, I know I am old, but hard as it may be to believe, I was not actually in the zip code during the battle. But I was there vicariously with my retired colonel tour guide whom I had retained to show me the real estate for 2 or 3 hours. He told me the real reason Pickett's charge up Cemetery Hill failed with great passion

Deets please? Even a summary?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Don't burn it, don't return it.

I'm getting extremely disturbed by the calls for censoring or even outright destroying historical artifacts these days. I don't like political hysteria, but it's gotten to the point where I think it's undeniable that there is something of a desire for an American Cultural Revolution amongst the Democratic Party these days.

As for the Confederate Flag, it belongs in a museum.

Cultural radicalism has found a backdoor into the Democratic party tent and has now unfortunately shown influence on the "consensus view" on some topics, much to the detriment of both the Democratic party and the nation at large.

[Torie]

The 1st Minnesota's flag lost five men carrying it. Every time another man dropped his weapon to carry it on. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the command of their senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands as the largest loss by any surviving U.S military unit in a single day's engagement ever. The unit's colors are displayed in the rotunda of the Minnesota Capitol for public appreciation.

Was reading some history and just wow!.
The day before they captured the flag.

Those tough-as-nails bastards arguably avoided disaster at Gettysburg and, thus, the entire nation.

Did I ever post about my Gettysburg story? No, I know I am old, but hard as it may be to believe, I was not actually in the zip code during the battle. But I was there vicariously with my retired colonel tour guide whom I had retained to show me the real estate for 2 or 3 hours. He told me the real reason Pickett's charge up Cemetery Hill failed with great passion

Deets please? Even a summary?

The colonel grabbed my arm and said, Steve! You know why the charge up that hill failed? I said well running uphill on open ground with bullet and cannon balls coming down on you from the above might have had something to do with it. He said, no! It was because the boys at the top of that hill were a Pennsylvanian regiment. They were defending their homes. Not one of them was leaving that hill. They were staying until the end,  dead or alive. Pickett never had a chance.

[Badger]

Don't burn it, don't return it.

I'm getting extremely disturbed by the calls for censoring or even outright destroying historical artifacts these days. I don't like political hysteria, but it's gotten to the point where I think it's undeniable that there is something of a desire for an American Cultural Revolution amongst the Democratic Party these days.

As for the Confederate Flag, it belongs in a museum.

Cultural radicalism has found a backdoor into the Democratic party tent and has now unfortunately shown influence on the "consensus view" on some topics, much to the detriment of both the Democratic party and the nation at large.

One would argue that the true cultural radicalism is honoring Is symbols of treason and slavery Is in the public squares and arenas, rather than removing them to museums like nazi memorabilia, but that's just me.

[beaver2.0]

No, it should be prominently displayed in the Minnesota capitol or a public museum as evidence of how the low-energy losers in Virginia got so owned in the Civil War that they even managed to get their flag stolen.

False.  We took one of the people from Minnesota (Tim Kaine) and made him a Virginian.  All they took was a piece of fabric. 

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

The 1st Minnesota's flag lost five men carrying it. Every time another man dropped his weapon to carry it on. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the command of their senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands as the largest loss by any surviving U.S military unit in a single day's engagement ever. The unit's colors are displayed in the rotunda of the Minnesota Capitol for public appreciation.

Was reading some history and just wow!.
The day before they captured the flag.

Those tough-as-nails bastards arguably avoided disaster at Gettysburg and, thus, the entire nation.

Did I ever post about my Gettysburg story? No, I know I am old, but hard as it may be to believe, I was not actually in the zip code during the battle. But I was there vicariously with my retired colonel tour guide whom I had retained to show me the real estate for 2 or 3 hours. He told me the real reason Pickett's charge up Cemetery Hill failed with great passion

Deets please? Even a summary?

The colonel grabbed my arm and said, Steve! You know why the charge up that hill failed? I said well running uphill on open ground with bullet and cannon balls coming down on you from the above might have had something to do with it. He said, no! It was because the boys at the top of that hill were a Pennsylvanian regiment. They were defending their homes. Not one of them was leaving that hill. They were staying until the end,  dead or alive. Pickett never had a chance.

Kudos for regimental pride, but I have to think that charging through a long clear field of fire uphill into massed rifles in a prepared position supported by canister shot would not have ended well in any event.

[Torie]

The 1st Minnesota's flag lost five men carrying it. Every time another man dropped his weapon to carry it on. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the command of their senior surviving officer, Captain Nathan S. Messick. The 82% casualty rate stands as the largest loss by any surviving U.S military unit in a single day's engagement ever. The unit's colors are displayed in the rotunda of the Minnesota Capitol for public appreciation.

Was reading some history and just wow!.
The day before they captured the flag.

Those tough-as-nails bastards arguably avoided disaster at Gettysburg and, thus, the entire nation.

Did I ever post about my Gettysburg story? No, I know I am old, but hard as it may be to believe, I was not actually in the zip code during the battle. But I was there vicariously with my retired colonel tour guide whom I had retained to show me the real estate for 2 or 3 hours. He told me the real reason Pickett's charge up Cemetery Hill failed with great passion

Deets please? Even a summary?

The colonel grabbed my arm and said, Steve! You know why the charge up that hill failed? I said well running uphill on open ground with bullet and cannon balls coming down on you from the above might have had something to do with it. He said, no! It was because the boys at the top of that hill were a Pennsylvanian regiment. They were defending their homes. Not one of them was leaving that hill. They were staying until the end,  dead or alive. Pickett never had a chance.

Kudos for regimental pride, but I have to think that charging through a long clear field of fire uphill into massed rifles in a prepared position supported by canister shot would not have ended well in any event.

The colonel was more into the elan school of warfare on this one.  I think this bit of drama was part of his tour performance art for those whom he thought would be appreciative of his making the effort. He read me perspicaciously.