Peggy Noonan on the Patriotism Question

[M]

[Barack Obama's] problem was, is, his wife's words, not his, the speech in which she said that for the first time in her adult life she is proud of her country, because Obama is winning. She later repeated it, then tried to explain it, saying of course she loves her country. But damage was done. Why? Because her statement focused attention on what I suspect are some basic and elementary questions that were starting to bubble out there anyway.

* * *

Here are a few of them.

Are the Obamas, at bottom, snobs? Do they understand America? Are they of it? Did anyone at their Ivy League universities school them in why one should love America? Do they confuse patriotism with nationalism, or nativism? Are they more inspired by abstractions like "international justice" than by old visions of America as the city on a hill, which is how John Winthrop saw it, and Ronald Reagan and JFK spoke of it?

Have they been, throughout their adulthood, so pampered and praised--so raised in the liberal cocoon--that they are essentially unaware of what and how normal Americans think? And are they, in this, like those cosseted yuppies, the Clintons?

Why is all this actually not a distraction but a real issue? Because Americans have common sense and are bottom line. They think like this. If the president and his first lady are not loyal first to America and its interests, who will be? The president of France? But it's his job to love France, and protect its interests. If America's leaders don't love America tenderly, who will?
[The Obamas]

And there is a context. So many Americans right now fear they are losing their country, that the old America is slipping away and being replaced by something worse, something formless and hollowed out. They can see we are giving up our sovereignty, that our leaders will not control our borders, that we don't teach the young the old-fashioned love of America, that the government has taken to itself such power, and made things so complex, and at the end of the day when they count up sales tax, property tax, state tax, federal tax they are paying a lot of money to lose the place they loved.

And if you feel you're losing America, you really don't want a couple in the White House whose rope of affection to the country seems lightly held, casual, provisional. America is backing Barack at the moment, so America is good. When it becomes angry with President Barack, will that mean America is bad?

* * *

Michelle Obama seems keenly aware of her struggles, of what it took to rise so high as a black woman in a white country. Fair enough. But I have wondered if it is hard for young African-Americans of her generation, having been drilled in America's sad racial history, having been told about it every day of their lives, to fully apprehend the struggles of others. I wonder if she knows that some people look at her and think "Man, she got it all." Intelligent, strong, tall, beautiful, Princeton, Harvard, black at a time when America was trying to make up for its sins and be helpful, and from a working-class family with two functioning parents who made sure she got to school.

That's the great divide in modern America, whether or not you had a functioning family, and she apparently came from the privileged part of that divide. A lot of white working-class Americans didn't come up with those things. Some of them were raised by a TV and a microwave and love our country anyway, every day.

Does Mrs. Obama know this? I don't know. If she does, love and gratitude for the place that tries to give everyone an equal shot would seem to be in order.

[Duke 🇺🇸]

I wonder the same thing about Obama. I would say that I am pretty sure he's patriotic, but it's the little things he refuses to do that makes me wonder. Some of his policies seem to come from a text book rather than common sense. I'm afraid he may put America in an unsafe situation when he sits down with these rogue leaders with no preconditions.

There's something about Obama that reminds me of those far-left academia type liberals that I see every day here walking around UNC. I don't want one of them in the White House. They speak well, the articulate well, but there's no way I want them running anything.

[Beet]

The problem with Obama is I have a hard time believing that what he says comes from his heart. I think he sat down one day, or deliberately thought through over a period of time, what themes and words would be most inspiring to Americans and how they could be most motivated to support liberal ideas (Americans' liberal instincts are brought out by telling them how great they are; so I'll say that America is a magical place. They are hidden by talking about fear and brought out by talking about hope, so that's what I'll talk about), and then repeated those lines. It's not that I don't think what Obama says are good ideas, but I want to know if they come from the heart as well as the head.

Perhaps Michelle Obama's "gaffe" tells more about how she really thinks than Barack's measured speeches tell him about how he really thinks.

My opinion could change... I am going to read his biography perhaps this weekend, but what I will be looking for is where his passion comes from, and whether that passion really meshes with his message.

[Duke 🇺🇸]

Obama talks about bringing America down to the level of other nations--stating that we shouldn't be able to do things that other nations cannot. He definitely possesses that academia definition of patriotism that only the far-left elite believe in that America is not necessarily the greatest country in the world, and we should not act like it. This bothers me about Obama.

[Verily]

Obama talks about bringing America down to the level of other nations--stating that we shouldn't be able to do things that other nations cannot. He definitely possesses that academia definition of patriotism that only the far-left elite believe in that America is not necessarily the greatest country in the world, and we should not act like it. This bothers me about Obama.

I will only say that those who believe America is inherently the greatest country in the world are phenomenally stupid. And it's terrible diplomacy to talk to other countries as if this were the case.

[Smash255]

Obama talks about bringing America down to the level of other nations--stating that we shouldn't be able to do things that other nations cannot. He definitely possesses that academia definition of patriotism that only the far-left elite believe in that America is not necessarily the greatest country in the world, and we should not act like it. This bothers me about Obama.

I'm sure most Americans feel America should be able to do whatever the hell we want without any consequences or any care in the world, hell look at the high regard Americans hold our esteemed President in......

[Beet]

Obama talks about bringing America down to the level of other nations--stating that we shouldn't be able to do things that other nations cannot. He definitely possesses that academia definition of patriotism that only the far-left elite believe in that America is not necessarily the greatest country in the world, and we should not act like it. This bothers me about Obama.

I will only say that those who believe America is inherently the greatest country in the world are phenomenally stupid. And it's terrible diplomacy to talk to other countries as if this were the case.

That's not the point. The point is that the perspective of an American President should be America first, because he is the head of our nation. There's nothing wrong with a pro-America bias if you're the f**king President of the U.S. John McCain certainly knows this. I'm not sure if Obama does. The fact that this needs to be explained to liberals is exactly the kind of thing AHDuke99 is talking about.

[Duke 🇺🇸]

Obama talks about bringing America down to the level of other nations--stating that we shouldn't be able to do things that other nations cannot. He definitely possesses that academia definition of patriotism that only the far-left elite believe in that America is not necessarily the greatest country in the world, and we should not act like it. This bothers me about Obama.

I will only say that those who believe America is inherently the greatest country in the world are phenomenally stupid. And it's terrible diplomacy to talk to other countries as if this were the case.

Thank you for proving my point. Do you believe a candidate could win by running on a statement that says he/she doesn't believe America is the greatest country in the world? Honestly, you people continue to amaze me.

The President MUST have an American bias. Reagan did, JFK did, even Clinton did. All of those men would say that they believe this was the greatest nation on earth. To say that a candidate must run on the policy of believing that America is not the greatest country in the world really shows how out of touch with the mainstream you really are.

This question will undoubtedly come up. You just gave the worst example of how to defend it.

[Smash255]

Obama talks about bringing America down to the level of other nations--stating that we shouldn't be able to do things that other nations cannot. He definitely possesses that academia definition of patriotism that only the far-left elite believe in that America is not necessarily the greatest country in the world, and we should not act like it. This bothers me about Obama.

I will only say that those who believe America is inherently the greatest country in the world are phenomenally stupid. And it's terrible diplomacy to talk to other countries as if this were the case.

Thank you for proving my point. Do you believe a candidate could win by running on a statement that says he/she doesn't believe America is the greatest country in the world? Honestly, you people continue to amaze me.

The President MUST have an American bias. Reagan did, JFK did, even Clinton did. All of those men would say that they believe this was the greatest nation on earth. To say that a candidate must run on the policy of believing that America is not the greatest country in the world really shows how out of touch with the mainstream you really are.

This question will undoubtedly come up. You just gave the worst example of how to defend it.

did it ever occur to you that things like WAR WAR WAR, and doing whatever the hell you want without any care to anyone else is actually not in the best Interests of America??

And things like acknowledging when mistakes are made...  The thought that we can't solve everything....Trying to work with people we may not agree with and may despise rather than having no dialogue other than ratcheting up war rhetoric...  are in the best interests of America and is putting America first?

[exopolitician]

Id like to point out to the Republicans on this forum who are whining about Obama meeting with our enemies, that it was President Ronald Reagan who successfully met and negotiated with the Soviet Leader [our ENEMY at the time] and basically mantained good relations with the USSR until its downfall in 1989/90...some may even go as far to say that Reagan himself helped bring down the Soviet Union.

Also were Richard Nixon who established ties with China, our communist enemy at the time as well during the Vietnam and Korean War [I think...i might be wrong].

If my point isnt getting across to anyone then I'll shut up, but I think these are perfect examples of how Republicans negotiated with our enemies in the past....why cant they do it now?

[Verily]

Obama talks about bringing America down to the level of other nations--stating that we shouldn't be able to do things that other nations cannot. He definitely possesses that academia definition of patriotism that only the far-left elite believe in that America is not necessarily the greatest country in the world, and we should not act like it. This bothers me about Obama.

I will only say that those who believe America is inherently the greatest country in the world are phenomenally stupid. And it's terrible diplomacy to talk to other countries as if this were the case.

Thank you for proving my point. Do you believe a candidate could win by running on a statement that says he/she doesn't believe America is the greatest country in the world? Honestly, you people continue to amaze me.

I am not talking about campaigning. I am resigned to the fact that most people are idiots in this regard. I am talking about intelligent thought and policy once in office.

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Being "out of touch with the mainstream" is not necessarily a bad thing. I do not believe that you will say that the mainstream is always correct; the mainstream, after all, supports abortion and raising the minimum wage.

In any case, there is a blatant distinction between a successful campaign and a successful President. A successful President is well aware that the United States is one good state among many (although it is worth pointing out that the US was more distinctly at or near the top three or four decades ago). A successful candidate may say otherwise.

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Again, campaigning, not dealing with the issues.

[Duke 🇺🇸]

Id like to point out to the Republicans on this forum who are whining about Obama meeting with our enemies, that it was President Ronald Reagan who successfully met and negotiated with the Soviet Leader [our ENEMY at the time] and basically mantained good relations with the USSR until its downfall in 1989/90...some may even go as far to say that Reagan himself helped bring down the Soviet Union.

Also were Richard Nixon who established ties with China, our communist enemy at the time as well during the Vietnam and Korean War [I think...i might be wrong].

If my point isnt getting across to anyone then I'll shut up, but I think these are perfect examples of how Republicans negotiated with our enemies in the past....why cant they do it now?

It's not that I disagree with talking to nations. I do support diplomacy with Iran and North Korea, but I don't think we need to go into it without any preconditions. Reagan and JFK would never do such a thing.

[Verily]

Obama talks about bringing America down to the level of other nations--stating that we shouldn't be able to do things that other nations cannot. He definitely possesses that academia definition of patriotism that only the far-left elite believe in that America is not necessarily the greatest country in the world, and we should not act like it. This bothers me about Obama.

I will only say that those who believe America is inherently the greatest country in the world are phenomenally stupid. And it's terrible diplomacy to talk to other countries as if this were the case.

That's not the point. The point is that the perspective of an American President should be America first, because he is the head of our nation.

That's not what AHDuke posted. He said that America was the greatest nation, and that the President must remember that in diplomacy.

First off, this is completely discarding democracies with equal or greater success in achieving effective government, who would be ticked off by such an attitude. Secondly, it is an uncritical look at the United States' policies which suggests that we should never consider changing anything already in place (after all if we're the greatest, clearly no one else has any good ideas). It makes bad policy for the President to be convinced that the United States is better; it leads to arrogance, the assumption that the United States can achieve anything and achieve it more effectively than anyone else--useful as a challenge to the country, pathetic as a political ideology.

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Looking after the United States' interests in international affairs is a whole different kettle of fish than believing the United States is the best. I am confident that Obama understands this, and I have seen nothing to suggest otherwise; since you seem to have, perhaps you could direct me to some such information. Seeking the United States' best interests does not mean avoiding admitting our faults or asserting our superiority to others.

[Verily]

Id like to point out to the Republicans on this forum who are whining about Obama meeting with our enemies, that it was President Ronald Reagan who successfully met and negotiated with the Soviet Leader [our ENEMY at the time] and basically mantained good relations with the USSR until its downfall in 1989/90...some may even go as far to say that Reagan himself helped bring down the Soviet Union.

Also were Richard Nixon who established ties with China, our communist enemy at the time as well during the Vietnam and Korean War [I think...i might be wrong].

If my point isnt getting across to anyone then I'll shut up, but I think these are perfect examples of how Republicans negotiated with our enemies in the past....why cant they do it now?

It's not that I disagree with talking to nations. I do support diplomacy with Iran and North Korea, but I don't think we need to go into it without any preconditions. Reagan and JFK would never do such a thing.

This is, in fact, exactly what Nixon did in China and Reagan in the USSR. What Kennedy would have done if presented with such an opportunity, I don't know.

[Smash255]

Id like to point out to the Republicans on this forum who are whining about Obama meeting with our enemies, that it was President Ronald Reagan who successfully met and negotiated with the Soviet Leader [our ENEMY at the time] and basically mantained good relations with the USSR until its downfall in 1989/90...some may even go as far to say that Reagan himself helped bring down the Soviet Union.

Also were Richard Nixon who established ties with China, our communist enemy at the time as well during the Vietnam and Korean War [I think...i might be wrong].

If my point isnt getting across to anyone then I'll shut up, but I think these are perfect examples of how Republicans negotiated with our enemies in the past....why cant they do it now?

It's not that I disagree with talking to nations. I do support diplomacy with Iran and North Korea, but I don't think we need to go into it without any preconditions. Reagan and JFK would never do such a thing.

Well I guess that F you would get in History would be an A in a Revisionist History course...

[Torie]

[Verily]

The picture was taken during the Star Spangled Banner, where putting the hand over the heart is a spotty convention at best.

[Torie]

The picture was taken during the Star Spangled Banner, where putting the hand over the heart is a spotty convention at best.

You will see a lot more of this picture. Obama thinks wearing a flag pin is infra dig too. Hewing to the public rituals of patriotism is embarrassing for  some. They think it lacks "nuance" or something.

[Verily]

The picture was taken during the Star Spangled Banner, where putting the hand over the heart is a spotty convention at best.

You will see a lot more of this picture. Obama thinks wearing a flag pin is infra dig too. Hewing to the public rituals of patriotism is embarrassing for  some. They think it lacks "nuance" or something.

It's mindless, and it promotes exactly the attitude AHDuke is presenting in this thread: that America is the greatest, and we should be uncritical of ourselves and ignore outside innovation.

[War on Want]

The picture was taken during the Star Spangled Banner, where putting the hand over the heart is a spotty convention at best.

You will see a lot more of this picture. Obama thinks wearing a flag pin is infra dig too. Hewing to the public rituals of patriotism is embarrassing for  some. They think it lacks "nuance" or something.

No it is just cheesy.

[Torie]

The picture was taken during the Star Spangled Banner, where putting the hand over the heart is a spotty convention at best.

You will see a lot more of this picture. Obama thinks wearing a flag pin is infra dig too. Hewing to the public rituals of patriotism is embarrassing for  some. They think it lacks "nuance" or something.

It's mindless, and it promotes exactly the attitude AHDuke is presenting in this thread: that America is the greatest, and we should be uncritical of ourselves and ignore outside innovation.

One can be critical of some US policies without thinking it is beneath one to respect the public rituals of patriotism as a public official. America is the greatest nation on earth going away in so many ways by the way. It is beyond per adventure in my opinion.  i doubt Obama would disagree - publically.

By the way, America and its system has been most generous to both Obama and his wife - very generous. They would not have had the success and opportunities that they have had anywhere else.

[Verily]

The picture was taken during the Star Spangled Banner, where putting the hand over the heart is a spotty convention at best.

You will see a lot more of this picture. Obama thinks wearing a flag pin is infra dig too. Hewing to the public rituals of patriotism is embarrassing for  some. They think it lacks "nuance" or something.

It's mindless, and it promotes exactly the attitude AHDuke is presenting in this thread: that America is the greatest, and we should be uncritical of ourselves and ignore outside innovation.

One can be critical of some US policies without thinking it is beneath one to respect the public rituals of patriotism as a public official. America is the greatest nation on earth going away in so many ways by the way. It is beyond per adventure in my opinion.  i doubt Obama would disagree - publically.

By the way, America and its system has been most generous to both Obama and his wife - very generous. They would not have had the success and opportunities that they have had anywhere else.

I disagree with you, on both counts (though the latter is really an incomparable measure). The United States is certainly not bad; there are at least 150 or so countries worse. But there are around forty countries that are at worst comparable to, and some marginally better than, the United States.

[War on Want]

The picture was taken during the Star Spangled Banner, where putting the hand over the heart is a spotty convention at best.

You will see a lot more of this picture. Obama thinks wearing a flag pin is infra dig too. Hewing to the public rituals of patriotism is embarrassing for  some. They think it lacks "nuance" or something.

It's mindless, and it promotes exactly the attitude AHDuke is presenting in this thread: that America is the greatest, and we should be uncritical of ourselves and ignore outside innovation.

One can be critical of some US policies without thinking it is beneath one to respect the public rituals of patriotism as a public official. America is the greatest nation on earth going away in so many ways by the way. It is beyond per adventure in my opinion.  i doubt Obama would disagree - publically.

By the way, America and its system has been most generous to both Obama and his wife - very generous. They would not have had the success and opportunities that they have had anywhere else.

The question is: why do you care? If you are so educated, why do you think it is so bad if Obama doesn't do all of the stupid patriotic stuff that really mean nothing?(I mean wearing a flag lapel, who really cares?)

[Torie]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion sir. I sincerely hope Obama disagrees with you. If he does not, I don't think he is fit for office. That is my opinion.

[War on Want]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion sir. I sincerely hope Obama disagrees with you. If he does not, I don't think he is fit for office. That is my opinion.

Blind patriotism has never done anything for America. I hope you know this.