When's the next time the world's map is redrawn?

[War on Want]

The serbian population of Kosovo are living under a naroterrorist, islamofascist regime which allows no freedom.

They may soon be massacred if they don't flee.

They will never be allowed to secede from the monstorous regime which Bush put into power.

[Хahar 🤔]

The serbian population of Kosovo are living under a naroterrorist, islamofascist regime which allows no freedom.

They may soon be massacred if they don't flee.

They will never be allowed to secede from the monstorous regime which Bush put into power.

It's the new cool thing to throw around these words.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Here's just a peak through one window of the islamofascist/narcoterrorist regime that runs kosovo.

http://hrw.org/doc?t=kosovo

[Frodo]

2009.

[JohnFKennedy]

Carl,

I don't think anybody has suggested that Kosovo has anything other than a poor record on the human rights of ethnic Serbs. I read a few of the articles on Human Rights Watch that you linked to and found it interesting that you have played up the abuse of Serbians by Kosovo but didn't mention the Serbian abuse of ethnic Albanians as well. To quote from the first article listed:

'Whether or not it’s proven that a trade in human organs took place, no one denies that about 400 people – most of them Serbs – went missing in Kosovo after the war. They form part of about 2,000 persons still missing from the conflict, two-thirds of them Albanians. Now is the time for authorities in Belgrade, Pristina and Tirana to investigate fully what happened to these people and to hold those who violated the law to account.  '

Further to that, I could not find any reference within any of the articles I read to Islam as being the driving force behind this human rights abuse which your suggestion of it being an 'islamofascist' regime would seem to imply. Instead, the violence in the Balkans is strongly linked to ethnic tensions. So I followed the articles up by running some searches for relevant articles. What I found was this and this. I then went on to look for more evidence of this 'islamofascism' and found this International Crisis Group Report into religion in Kosovo which also goes against your claim of the importance of Islam to this human rights abuse. In fact, it seems to suggest that Islam is hardly at the fore of Kosovan politics

So, having found no evidence to support your suggestions of 'islamofascist' abuse of Serbians - but of course evidence of abuse of Serbs - I came to ponder why it is that you ascribe this to Islam? I also wonder if the fact that Kosovo is majority Muslim is a factor in your strong criticism of it and apparent silence on questions of Serbian abuse of ethnic Albanians? Am I to assume from this that you are a subscriber to the Huntingtonian notion of a 'Clash of Civilizations'? If that is the case, I think there will be plenty more discussions to follow!

[CARLHAYDEN]

Carl,

I don't think anybody has suggested that Kosovo has anything other than a poor record on the human rights of ethnic Serbs. I read a few of the articles on Human Rights Watch that you linked to and found it interesting that you have played up the abuse of Serbians by Kosovo but didn't mention the Serbian abuse of ethnic Albanians as well. To quote from the first article listed:

'Whether or not it’s proven that a trade in human organs took place, no one denies that about 400 people – most of them Serbs – went missing in Kosovo after the war. They form part of about 2,000 persons still missing from the conflict, two-thirds of them Albanians. Now is the time for authorities in Belgrade, Pristina and Tirana to investigate fully what happened to these people and to hold those who violated the law to account.  '

Further to that, I could not find any reference within any of the articles I read to Islam as being the driving force behind this human rights abuse which your suggestion of it being an 'islamofascist' regime would seem to imply. Instead, the violence in the Balkans is strongly linked to ethnic tensions. So I followed the articles up by running some searches for relevant articles. What I found was this and this. I then went on to look for more evidence of this 'islamofascism' and found this International Crisis Group Report into religion in Kosovo which also goes against your claim of the importance of Islam to this human rights abuse. In fact, it seems to suggest that Islam is hardly at the fore of Kosovan politics

So, having found no evidence to support your suggestions of 'islamofascist' abuse of Serbians - but of course evidence of abuse of Serbs - I came to ponder why it is that you ascribe this to Islam? I also wonder if the fact that Kosovo is majority Muslim is a factor in your strong criticism of it and apparent silence on questions of Serbian abuse of ethnic Albanians? Am I to assume from this that you are a subscriber to the Huntingtonian notion of a 'Clash of Civilizations'? If that is the case, I think there will be plenty more discussions to follow!

John,

As you may be aware, many publications are understandably afraid to publish any material which might anger the islamic extremists.

There is a fictional book out about Mohammed, which most bookstores won't carry as they are afraid of being attacked.

Now, true Islam is NOT a factor in Kosovo, but, it is being used as a pretext by the narcoterrorists to completely dominate the pseudocountry.  Just check out the many attacks on Serbian churches in Kosovo (I note you failed to mention those).

Now, there have been despicable acts by all parties in the past generation in what used to be Jugoslavia. 

On balance, the acts of the Serbs against the Bosnians, Croats and Slovenes were quite serious.

What really irritates me is that the United States intervened to rip a province of Serbia away from that country, and award it criminals.

Expect that in a very few years, it will become a part of greater Albania, as the current status is plainly untenable, and merely a face saving measure, as it was clear all along that Kosovo was being ripped from Serbia and awarded to Albania.

[Хahar 🤔]

It was clear all along that Kosovo was being ripped from Serbia and awarded to Albania.

While I do think that the right of the Serbs in Kosovo are unsatisfactory, I must here assume that you do not care about the opinion of the vast majority of Kosovars.

[JohnFKennedy]

John,

As you may be aware, many publications are understandably afraid to publish any material which might anger the islamic extremists.

There is a fictional book out about Mohammed, which most bookstores won't carry as they are afraid of being attacked.

Now, true Islam is NOT a factor in Kosovo, but, it is being used as a pretext by the narcoterrorists to completely dominate the pseudocountry.  Just check out the many attacks on Serbian churches in Kosovo (I note you failed to mention those).

Now, there have been despicable acts by all parties in the past generation in what used to be Jugoslavia. 

On balance, the acts of the Serbs against the Bosnians, Croats and Slovenes were quite serious.

What really irritates me is that the United States intervened to rip a province of Serbia away from that country, and award it criminals.

Expect that in a very few years, it will become a part of greater Albania, as the current status is plainly untenable, and merely a face saving measure, as it was clear all along that Kosovo was being ripped from Serbia and awarded to Albania.

The links I cited all mention the damage done to Orthodox Chuches in Kosovo. They also all link it to ethnic rather than religious questions. You may note that the International Crisis Report is from January of 2001 which suggests it is probably not self-censoring due to fear of Islamic extremists. So, if Islam is simply being used as a pretext, why do you use the term 'islamofascist' which seems to suggest that their atrocities are religiously motivated.

I was under the impression that Sherry Jones' book (the one you mention) had not actually been published because of the potential threat (no doubt a reaction to the response to Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses and the Danish cartoon saga more recently). Still, I fail to see how that entirely relates to the question of Islam in Kosovo.

I also wonder at the absence of ethnic Albanians and the Kosovar population from your point that 'on balance, the acts of the Serbs against the Bosnians, Croats and Slovenes were quite serious'.

So, out of curiosity, do you subscribe to Huntington's thesis of a 'Clash of Civilizations'?

[CARLHAYDEN]

John,

As you may be aware, many publications are understandably afraid to publish any material which might anger the islamic extremists.

There is a fictional book out about Mohammed, which most bookstores won't carry as they are afraid of being attacked.

Now, true Islam is NOT a factor in Kosovo, but, it is being used as a pretext by the narcoterrorists to completely dominate the pseudocountry.  Just check out the many attacks on Serbian churches in Kosovo (I note you failed to mention those).

Now, there have been despicable acts by all parties in the past generation in what used to be Jugoslavia. 

On balance, the acts of the Serbs against the Bosnians, Croats and Slovenes were quite serious.

What really irritates me is that the United States intervened to rip a province of Serbia away from that country, and award it criminals.

Expect that in a very few years, it will become a part of greater Albania, as the current status is plainly untenable, and merely a face saving measure, as it was clear all along that Kosovo was being ripped from Serbia and awarded to Albania.

The links I cited all mention the damage done to Orthodox Chuches in Kosovo. They also all link it to ethnic rather than religious questions. You may note that the International Crisis Report is from January of 2001 which suggests it is probably not self-censoring due to fear of Islamic extremists. So, if Islam is simply being used as a pretext, why do you use the term 'islamofascist' which seems to suggest that their atrocities are religiously motivated.

I was under the impression that Sherry Jones' book (the one you mention) had not actually been published because of the potential threat (no doubt a reaction to the response to Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses and the Danish cartoon saga more recently). Still, I fail to see how that entirely relates to the question of Islam in Kosovo.

I also wonder at the absence of ethnic Albanians and the Kosovar population from your point that 'on balance, the acts of the Serbs against the Bosnians, Croats and Slovenes were quite serious'.

So, out of curiosity, do you subscribe to Huntington's thesis of a 'Clash of Civilizations'?

John,

Let my try to be clear to the points you can understand.

The Serbs in Kosovar are being attacked both for ethnic and religious reasons. 

First, I cited examples of the attacks on the Serbian churches as evidence that your contention that the Serbs were only being attacked for ethnic reasons.  Although, I fail to understand why that is any more acceptable than the attacks on them for religious reasons. 

Second, I cited how western purveys of information being terrified of the islamic extremist attacks as an explanation for why more coverage of the attacks on the Serbs has not been published.  Do you really believe that such attacks have NOT happened simply because of the lack of coverage?

What is it with you?

You casually dismiss the atrocities committed against the Serbs by Kosovo government.

You minimize the attacks on the Serbian churches, which you assure me are not religiously motivated because the actions of the Kosovo regime.

You ignore my assertion (thereby agreeing) that Kosovo was ripped from Jugoslavia by force.

Will you acknowledge the monstrous acts of the Kosovo regime, or simply try to apologize for them?

[CARLHAYDEN]

Well, John, I understand that for whatever reason you want to merely defend the regime running Kosovo and attack the Serbs, who are being persecuted by the Kosovo regime.

So, I'm going to give you a little background on the thugs running the Kosovo regime.  The first like is by a left-wing rag, so you may believe it (a little dated, but gives the foundation of the regime running Kosovo):

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/01/heroin.html

[CARLHAYDEN]

Oh, and John, here's a little historical background, which I am sure you will reject out of hand:

"The historical and political precedent for the creation of a Greater Albania was set during World War II when the Kosovo-Metohija region, along with territory in southwest Montenegro and western Macedonia (then Southern Serbia ,now part of Macedonia, but a part of Stara Srbija in the medieval period), were annexed to Albania by the Axis powers, fascist Italy and Nazi Germany under a plan by Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini to dismember Yugoslavia.The Kosovska Mitrovica region was retained under German occupation because of the Trepca mines. The districts of Vucitrn, Lab, and Dezevo or Novi Pazar were made part of the Kosovo Department.The Tetovo, Debar, Struga, Gostivar regions of western Macedonia were ceded to a Greater Albania under Italian administration.The Gnjilane, Vitin, and Kacanik districts were ceded by Germany to Bulgaria to administer.In the initial stages of the occupation of Kosovo-Metohija, Germany organized a police force of approximately 1,000 Kosovar Albanians and Albanian paramilitary forces of the same number known as Vulnetara.During the Italian administration from 1941-1943, Kosovo Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and other non-Albanians were arrested, interned, deported, or murdered. Serbian houses were burned and Serbian inhabitants were driven out of Kosovo. Dozens of Serbian Orthodox churches were demolished and looted. Over 10,000 Kosovo Serb and Montenegrin families were driven out of Kosovo by Albanians who were put in charge of Kosovo-Metohija by the Italian and German forces.Kosovo Serbs and Montenegrins were deported to forced labor camps in Pristina and in Mitrovica to work the Trepca mines and to Albania to work on construction projects as forced or slave labor. The Italian regime encouraged the Kosovo Committee and the Balli Kombetar (BK, National Union) to create an ethnically pure Albanian Kosovo as part of a Greater Albania. The government and police were made up of Albanians while the Albanian language and the Albanian flag were permitted in Kosovo-Metohija.Germany assumed direct control and re-occupied Kosovo when Italy surrendered in 1943."

[JohnFKennedy]

Carl, Carl, Carl. I see you are resorting to your usual tactic of debate which is to get aggressive with anyone who disagrees with you and imply they are rejecting the facts and cannot possibly understand the situation to the same extent that you can with your enormous brain [I think here perhaps brain should read ego?] and so on.

Unfortunately, in this case it means attacking a point I did not make. Firstly, I accepted that the government of Kosovo had abused the rights of ethnic Serbs as you can see from this quote:

I don't think anybody has suggested that Kosovo has anything other than a poor record on the human rights of ethnic Serbs.

Nor did I ‘casually dismiss’ the atrocities committed against ethnic Serbs. In fact, I recognised them and never sought to offer an apologia for the Kosovan government. Instead, I pointed out that this conflict was not primarily a religious one, but an ethnic one, and thus your claim that these atrocities were being carried out by an ‘Islamofascist’ Kosovo is misguided. You will note that all the evidence I have provided you with suggests that Islamic extremism is barely present in Kosovo and that religious observance in the country is far from strong or extreme.

Further to that, I did not imply in any way that there were no attacks occurring because they were not being covered by the media – you’ll note that I pointed out in my post that the pieces I linked to all make note of the attacks on Serbian Orthodox Churches, but that they also point out the use of the Orthodox Church in the construction of a hegemonic cultural discourse by Slobodan Milosevic. It is from that basis that the International Crisis Report seeks to understand the violence in Kosovo; it is not some sort of clash of religions where an Islamic majority seeks to persecute an Orthodox minority, but an ethnic one where an ethnically Albanian population lash out a perceived bastion of Serbian ethnic nationalism. At no point did I claim that this was any less serious than if it were religiously motivated, I merely pointed out that the facts don’t support your supposition that Islam is at the heart of the persecution of the Serbs.

So then you move on to assert that I ‘want to merely defend the regime running Kosovo and attack the Serbs, who are being persecuted by the Kosovo regime’ which is clearly not in line with what I have said. At no point did I attack the Serbs who were being persecuted by the government of Kosovo, but merely pointed out that you acknowledge the Serbian government’s abuse of ‘Bosnians, Croats and Slovenes’ but not their treatment of ethnic Albanians. Could it be that the three groups you mentioned are primarily Christians while the Albanian population is a Muslim one?

In fact, I have pointed out that the government of Kosovo’s record on human rights is poor, so I would hardly say I was trying to ‘defend’ it. I was simply trying to address this suggestion that the regime was ‘Islamofascist’ which is clearly not in tune with the facts on the ground.

Of course, you then resort to suggesting that I will only believe what I read in a ‘left-wing rag’ and will ‘reject’ the ‘historical background’ to the conflict, both of which are amusing claims given that I regularly read The Economist and every so often The Times, neither of which are really ‘left-wing’ rags and nor are my other sources of information – the BBC website and The Guardian newspaper. Yet, I found your suggestion that I will simply ‘reject’ history to be even more amusing, mainly because I have already completed the better part of a degree in the subject and will most probably be following it up with an MPhil and Ph.D.

So, given that I know provenance is incredibly important in history, I had a look on the internet for the source of your historical background (seeing as you didn’t feel like linking it for me) and found it to be from ‘Project Rastko’ which is an educational project dedicated to Serbian culture. Of course, I don’t reject it ‘out of hand’ because it is true that Serbians were ethnically cleansed. Instead, what I found more interesting about my read was the discussion of Jews in Albania, because one of the articles I linked you to earlier actually notes that the Jewish population in Albania doubled during the Second World War with many Jews being saved by Albanian Muslims. So, no I do not reject the historical background ‘out of hand’, but I will seek to verify what you suggest it to be by investigating other sources. I can only assume your decision not to provide me with the link to that little snippet is because of its source.

At no point have I suggested that ethnic Serbs have been treated well in Kosovo, nor have I sought to ‘apologise’ for the government of Kosovo and nor have I rejected the facts ‘out of hand’ as you suggest I do. Instead, I have sought to question your claim that the government in Kosovo is ‘Islamofascist’ because such a suggestion implies that its abuse of ethnic Serbs is derived from Islamic faith. I have provided you with evidence to the contrary on that point and have also raised questions about your bias in the matter, given that your discussion of Serbian abuses did not extend to that government’s treatment of ethnic Albanians. So, I have repeatedly acknowledged that the government in Kosovo’s record when it comes to ethnic Serbs is poor, will you acknowledge that the Serbian government has, in turn, abused the rights of ethnic Albanians?

Finally, on the creation of Kosovo, I did not mention the point as I thought I would leave you to respond to Xahar’s point regarding the opinion of the Kosovar population.

[CARLHAYDEN]

John,

First, as I earlier noted, the regine running Kosovo is primarily Narcoterrorist, which uses pseudoislamic slogans to cover its depredations against the Serbs.

They use the slogans for three major reasons: (1) it is popular with much of the population as a pretext for the depredations, (2) it causes the media to shy off the story, and (3) it makes many of the foreign backers of the Kosovo regime believe that they have suceeded in imposing an outpost of islamic extremism in europe.

Second, as I previously noted you and Xahar are incredibly fond of the Kosovars and Albanians.  If one of them suffers a paper cut you're all agog, but thousands of Serbs are murdered, its, well, things like that happen.

Now, there is no doubt that the Serbs have committed attrocities, but, on balance, in Kosovo, the Kosovars/Albanians are far and away the the worst offenders!

[JohnFKennedy]

Carl,

So you admit that this is not the 'Islamofascist' regime you were previously claiming it was? That is what I was after.

I wonder if you had a read of any of the websites I linked you to earlier in this discussion. Each and every one of them noted that Islam in Kosovo is far more moderate than you seem to be giving it credit for. To quote from one of those articles:

'It would be wrong to suggest Kosovo has no Islamists at all, but in the last election in late 2007, the country’s single Islamic party gained only 1.7 per cent of the vote.'

Further to that, I wonder who these 'foreign backers' you speak of are? As far as I can see, some of the biggest backers of an independent Kosovo are western powers who would hardly be interested in 'imposing an outpost of Islamic extremism in Europe'. Also, I sincerely doubt that the government needs to use religion as a pretext to abuse the human rights of Serbs, given that the tensions between the two are primarily ethnic.

On your second point, it is ludicrous to suggest that my attitude towards the murder of Serbs is 'things like that happen' as I made clear in my last post. I have freely condemned the treatment of Serbs in Kosovo while you neglected to mention ethnic Albanians in your point on atrocities committed by the Serbian government. I am not a Kosovar nationalist, my original engagement in this debate was to question your use of language which does not seem to be applicable to the situation.

[Хahar 🤔]

The lack of avatars is hurting my head!




Ah, that's much better.