If Obama had been white...

[exopolitician]

why must you repeatedly use the 'n' word?

Why must you be a total pussy?

But, to answer your question (and I think it's a fair one, albeit poorly presented), I was merely responding in kind to the point Gustaf was making.

Moreover, I'd argue that even if Obama were the descendant of African slaves (there, I used a clunky four-word phrase in order to avoid saying the word n, since you and probably every other thought-policeman and censure-monger on this forum objects)--even it were true that Obama was what Gustaf called him, then elcorazon's points would still be valid.  In fact, I'd argue that they'd be even more easy to make.

Or perhaps I totally misunderstand Gustaf's question.  That happens from time to time, so I must admit the possibility. 

haha wow...

btw the n word has been used several times on this forum in a negative sense towards Obama.

[angus]

why must you repeatedly use the 'n' word?

Why must you be a total pussy?

But, to answer your question (and I think it's a fair one, albeit poorly presented), I was merely responding in kind to the point Gustaf was making.

Moreover, I'd argue that even if Obama were the descendant of African slaves (there, I used a clunky four-word phrase in order to avoid saying the word n, since you and probably every other thought-policeman and censure-monger on this forum objects)--even it were true that Obama was what Gustaf called him, then elcorazon's points would still be valid.  In fact, I'd argue that they'd be even more easy to make.

Or perhaps I totally misunderstand Gustaf's question.  That happens from time to time, so I must admit the possibility. 

haha wow...

btw the n word has been used several times on this forum in a negative sense towards Obama.

oh, now come on.  Don't be an asshole.  I knew I shouldn't have gotten sucked into this.  I totally understood (I think) what elcorazon was saying and would have left it at that, but Gustaf's way too smart to be let off the hook, so I took the bait.  No one is calling Obama a n except Gustaf, if you'll read carefully.  And even that doesn't count, if you read carefully because (1) he is mistaken, probably on account of the fact that he doesn't understand the rudeness embodied in the term as it applies specifically in the anglophone portion of the Western Hemisphere and (2) he was only to use hyperbole to make a point in the first place, and shouldn't have his comments misconstrued as bigotry.  (I recognize that you're not trying to do this, but I also know that some will.)

However, none of that changes the fact that it's a bizarre and unanswerable question, and a waste of bandwidth, except that it serendipitously reveals that there are those who'd try to compare Obama with Edwards.  That one's probably worth a fight, but it deserves its own thread.

[Keystone Phil]

Using "the N word" as an insult here is bad but I've learned that saying "the N word" instead of "n" is childish.

[exopolitician]

why must you repeatedly use the 'n' word?

Why must you be a total pussy?

But, to answer your question (and I think it's a fair one, albeit poorly presented), I was merely responding in kind to the point Gustaf was making.

Moreover, I'd argue that even if Obama were the descendant of African slaves (there, I used a clunky four-word phrase in order to avoid saying the word n, since you and probably every other thought-policeman and censure-monger on this forum objects)--even it were true that Obama was what Gustaf called him, then elcorazon's points would still be valid.  In fact, I'd argue that they'd be even more easy to make.

Or perhaps I totally misunderstand Gustaf's question.  That happens from time to time, so I must admit the possibility. 

haha wow...

btw the n word has been used several times on this forum in a negative sense towards Obama.

oh, now come on.  Don't be an asshole.  I knew I shouldn't have gotten sucked into this.  I totally understood (I think) what elcorazon was saying and would have left it at that, but Gustaf's way too smart to be let off the hook, so I took the bait.  No one is calling Obama a n except Gustaf, if you'll read carefully.  And even that doesn't count, if you read carefully because (1) he is mistaken, probably on account of the fact that he doesn't understand the rudeness embodied in the term as it applies specifically in the anglophone portion of the Western Hemisphere and (2) he was only to use hyperbole to make a point in the first place, and shouldn't have his comments misconstrued as bigotry.  (I recognize that you're not trying to do this, but I also know that some will.)

However, none of that changes the fact that it's a bizarre and unanswerable question, and a waste of bandwidth, except that it serendipitously reveals that there are those who'd try to compare Obama with Edwards.  That one's probably worth a fight, but it deserves its own thread.

Whoa lordy my post wasnt anything insulting towards you...I was just stating a fact that its been used around the forum as a negative term against Obama.

[WalterMitty]

why must you repeatedly use the 'n' word?

Why must you be a total pussy?

But, to answer your question (and I think it's a fair one, albeit poorly presented), I was merely responding in kind to the point Gustaf was making.

Moreover, I'd argue that even if Obama were the descendant of African slaves (there, I used a clunky four-word phrase in order to avoid saying the word n, since you and probably every other thought-policeman and censure-monger on this forum objects)--even it were true that Obama was what Gustaf called him, then elcorazon's points would still be valid.  In fact, I'd argue that they'd be even more easy to make.

Or perhaps I totally misunderstand Gustaf's question.  That happens from time to time, so I must admit the possibility. 

i guess i am a pussy, if pussies dont like the 'n' word.

i heard it enough growing up.  but those were dirt road rednecks using the word then.

i guess it is different since youre some kind of enlighted middle aged white guy trying to hip.

[angus]

Jeezus walter, Do we have to spell it out?  No, pussies are not people who don't like the word n.  Just to be clear.  Pussies are people who go on TV and say stuff like:

N-word

F-word

C-word

Those terms are far more insulting to most intelligent people than the nasty words they're meant to represent.  Well, hopefully I'm being clear.  Or would you prefer I give you a more explicit explanation of the phenomenon to which I am referring?

No, I'm not some middle-aged white guy trying to be hip.  I'd still call you a pussy, even if I were seven or seventy.

[WalterMitty]

obviously we are from two different backgrounds.

anyway, im sure everyone here will begin ridiculing me for not liking that word. 



so haha im a pussy.  yeah. 

[angus]

I think this is going to get way out of hand and I already feel like a jackass for letting you get the better of me.  I apologize to you walter.  Sincerely.  I don't think you were trying to get on my nerves.  And I wasn't trying to get on yours either.  I think we're perhaps focusing on different aspects of some problem.  For what it's worth, I recognize my hypocrisy.  I often complain of the thought police and free speech police, and yet when anyone insults my intelligence--as surely anyone who says N-word or F-word or C-word will certainly do--I tend to get insulted and come unglued.

Fundamentally it insults me to the core of my being when people do that.  I'm not sure why, but it is about as silly and unnecessary a thing as I can imagine.  Either you want to comment about words like n and c**nt and fuçk, or you don't.  But don't say it while at the same time pretend not to be saying it.  That's really weird and insulting to everyone with sense, I'd imagine.

Still, apparently such silliness doesn't seem to bother you.  Just as Gustaf's hyperbole and my response in kind doesn't bother me.  Let's agree to live and let each other live.  And not attempt to abridge each other's modes of expression.

You are not a P-word.  I was speaking out of frustration and I apologize for insulting you publicly.  I was rude and my emotional diatribe was inexcusable, but I hope you will forgive me and communicate with me in the future on matters of mutual interest.

[TheGlobalizer]

Angus makes some good points, if you get past any fixation on the use of the word 'n'.

To be perfectly honest, if Obama was a "descendant of African slaves", I would be less inclined to vote for him.  That baggage is a killer, IMHO, and I'm not ready to wave off the 40+ years of cultural breakdown that have occurred since the civil rights movement.

The fact that he's black AND of recent African descent is golden for me.  All of his viewpoints and charisma aside, there is value, I think, in electing a "brown guy" to be president these days, both from a foreign policy perspective and from a domestic social ("race relations") perspective.

If nothing else, it's one less straw man argument about the things that blacks aren't "allowed" to do.  I think black folks today need a strong, visible leader and role model.  Al Sharpton and Jay-Z ain't cutting it.

[Gustaf]

1. I was angry with Angus and figured he deserved a rude insinuation of racism. I still think it was deserved because he can take it but if I had anticipated the reaction I would have refrained. It's not a word I would use but I wanted to make clear how I felt on the subject of making  a person's colour an essential part of their character.

2. Elcorazon, just as I noted in another thread I think we're more in agreement than you seem to realize. I agree that Obama would have swept the west by huge margins even if he was white. And he would have done better among those Southern whites too. However, I will reiterate my point that he would not get all the black voters. Most of them are exactly the kind of poor, religious blue-collar types who support Clinton if they're white. I'm not saying Obama is not a good candidate because he obviously is and I think his colour will, sadly, be a liability for him in the general election. But Clinton is also a very strong candidate for a Democratic primary and I doubt anyone but a black candidate with Obama's special background and charisma could have done it. He's assembled a very unlikely coalition of black voters, latte liberals and independents and it has managed to beat Clinton. Without the black component the establishement candidate would have won out, as in most cases.

3. Angus. Seriously, I like you and I know you are way too smart to really believe what you seem to be arguing here. You're saying that it is a waste of time to assume anything about the world that is not true? This kills all analysis. Every argument about causation is fundamentally the same as a counter-factual scenario. If I argue that the Civil War was (partially) caused by slavery or that Einstein's theories helped build the atomic bomb or that gravity causes things to fall to the ground I'm saying exactly that if we change those precious "parametres of the universe" these things would not come about. Prohibiting imagining of anything that does not exist is the death of all analysis and really most thinking at all. If the CIA says "what is there is a terrorist attack on..." would you go "stop, right there, what-if scenarios are a waste of time!"? And it's not just impractical, it's absurdly anti-intellectual. Is all fiction a waste of time too? All books and movies? All philosophy? Every attempt to think at anything beyond mere descriptives? You have to argue that this particular what if is wrong in some way and you haven't really done so yet. It seems that you're too emotionally involved in Obama to accept anything you regard as criticism of him. And as I've repeatedly pointed out that isn't what this is about. Other people may post attack threads here to try and lure people onto their side but that's never really interested me.

4. You say something about Obama's race but it's frankly a bit too confusing for me too understand. If you're pointing out that Obama is not of slave descent, yes I know. I still don't see it as very relevant to the topic.

[angus]

I like you and I know you are way too smart...

well, this is just becoming a regular Love Fest, isn't it? 

Man, I just haven't the energy for this anymore.  I've been saying for at least eight months on this forum that Obama is my favorite Democrat.  And you Democrats should nominate him.  But it has nothing to do with the fact that he's black.  (Just like I've been saying for at least that long that Paul is my favorite Republican, and the Republicans should nominate him, and it has nothing to do with the fact that he's a pediatrician.)  I don't especially like blacks (or pediatricians.)  I don't dislike 'em either, for that matter.  It really doesn't matter to me whether Obama was black, white, green, brown, or purple.  (just like it doesn't matter to me whether Paul is a pediatrician, tribal elder, plumber, money market account manager, or astronaut.)  I find it hard to answer any more of your question, since things like black and pediatrician matter less to me than what you say and how you say it.  (and, of course, whether you give me a hard-on.)  And there's really only one Democrat and one Republican who consistently give me a raging hard-on every time they open their mouths.  Therefore, I find it very, very difficult to see the utility of your question.

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I say nothing of his race.  You do.  To me, it doesn't matter any more that Obama is black than Paul is a pediatrician.  I don't dig blacks.  (And I don't dig pediatricians.)  I dig people.  I happen to dig Obama.  (I also happen to dig Paul.)  I know some blacks (and I know some pediatricians.)  They're kind, and they happen to be good neighbors.  But that was never the focus of my diatribe.  I only mention that obama isn't a n, and by calling him that I suspect that you woefully misunderstand the connotation, and perhaps even the denotation, of the term.  It has a very nasty meaning, and unless you're a completely unschooled bumpkin, you would understand that it shouldn't be applied to Obama.  It's like calling a Dravidian a camel-jockey, or something.  If you're going to be a redneck, at least try to be a well-educated one.  Sharpton, for example, may be called a n.  Although it is every bit as rude to call him one.  In fact, Sharpton really understands what the term means, I suspect, and would probably slap your face if you called him that, whereas Obama probably would not, since he is not.  At first I thought this was a minor point unrelated to your thread, but now I'm beginning to realize your lack of understanding of the bizarre nature of your question.

Anyway, for what it's worth, I don't think I'd be any less supportive of Obama if he wasn't black.  Just as I don't think I'd be any less supportive of Paul if he weren't a pediatrician.  But there's really no way for me to know that with certainty without changing the universe as it currently exists.

[angus]

By the way, are youze guys watching the lunar eclipse?

This is cool.  My son and I have been watching it for about 30 minutes.  When we started there was a full, large, white moon over Cedar Falls.  Now it's nearly half-covered.  I think I have made him understand that the moon is just a big stone in the sky, and the sun is a big ball of fire that provides light and heat, Holo+caust, as it were.  But making him understand the concept of orbit as opposed to rotation, and the collinear alignment of three celestial objects has proven a bit more challenging.  Still, it's cool.  We have rarely had a cloudless night lately.  Lots of snow.  It's about zero fahrenheit now, and no so melts so that I haven't seen a blade of grass in almost three months, but the gods allowed the clouds to part for us tonight, long enough so that we might witness the lunar eclipse.

[exopolitician]

By the way, are youze guys watching the lunar eclipse?

This is cool.  My son and I have been watching it for about 30 minutes.  When we started there was a full, large, white moon over Cedar Falls.  Now it's nearly half-covered.  I think I have made him understand that the moon is just a big stone in the sky, and the sun is a big ball of fire that provides light and heat, Holo+caust, as it were.  But making him understand the concept of orbit as opposed to rotation, and the collinear alignment of three celestial objects has proven a bit more challenging.  Still, it's cool.  We have rarely had a cloudless night lately.  Lots of snow.  It's about zero fahrenheit now, and no so melts so that I haven't seen a blade of grass in almost three months, but the gods allowed the clouds to part for us tonight, long enough so that we might witness the lunar eclipse.

I wish I could but its snowing here, so its hidden behind the clouds. Kinda dissapointing but ive seen Lunar Eclipses before and i'll definately see one again.

[Reaganfan]

If Obama had been white, of course he wouldn't have been on stage.

[Gustaf]

I like you and I know you are way too smart...

well, this is just becoming a regular Love Fest, isn't it? 

Man, I just haven't the energy for this anymore.  I've been saying for at least eight months on this forum that Obama is my favorite Democrat.  And you Democrats should nominate him.  But it has nothing to do with the fact that he's black.  (Just like I've been saying for at least that long that Paul is my favorite Republican, and the Republicans should nominate him, and it has nothing to do with the fact that he's a pediatrician.)  I don't especially like blacks (or pediatricians.)  I don't dislike 'em either, for that matter.  It really doesn't matter to me whether Obama was black, white, green, brown, or purple.  (just like it doesn't matter to me whether Paul is a pediatrician, tribal elder, plumber, money market account manager, or astronaut.)  I find it hard to answer any more of your question, since things like black and pediatrician matter less to me than what you say and how you say it.  (and, of course, whether you give me a hard-on.)  And there's really only one Democrat and one Republican who consistently give me a raging hard-on every time they open their mouths.  Therefore, I find it very, very difficult to see the utility of your question.

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I say nothing of his race.  You do.  To me, it doesn't matter any more that Obama is black than Paul is a pediatrician.  I don't dig blacks.  (And I don't dig pediatricians.)  I dig people.  I happen to dig Obama.  (I also happen to dig Paul.)  I know some blacks (and I know some pediatricians.)  They're kind, and they happen to be good neighbors.  But that was never the focus of my diatribe.  I only mention that obama isn't a n, and by calling him that I suspect that you woefully misunderstand the connotation, and perhaps even the denotation, of the term.  It has a very nasty meaning, and unless you're a completely unschooled bumpkin, you would understand that it shouldn't be applied to Obama.  It's like calling a Dravidian a camel-jockey, or something.  If you're going to be a redneck, at least try to be a well-educated one.  Sharpton, for example, may be called a n.  Although it is every bit as rude to call him one.  In fact, Sharpton really understands what the term means, I suspect, and would probably slap your face if you called him that, whereas Obama probably would not, since he is not.  At first I thought this was a minor point unrelated to your thread, but now I'm beginning to realize your lack of understanding of the bizarre nature of your question.

Anyway, for what it's worth, I don't think I'd be any less supportive of Obama if he wasn't black.  Just as I don't think I'd be any less supportive of Paul if he weren't a pediatrician.  But there's really no way for me to know that with certainty without changing the universe as it currently exists.

I didn't call Obama a "n." So your smart-ass observations of him not being one are irrelevant. In fact, I didn't say anyone were. Furthermore, I know it is a very offensive term. I used it to indicate that I found your ideas reflective of that kind of racism.

Perhaps you simply misunderstood my original question. I don't give a damn about whether you support Obama (good for you) or that you're enlightened enough not to care about the his colour of his skin. Why should I? I was asking a broader question and you still have not said much about it. If you're going to be this condescending of my case I think you should offer evidence against it, which you're not. Should I interpret your silence on the issue of counter-factual scenarios as admitting I was right about that? Or do you simply think that all counter-factual thinking should be banned from the world? 

[angus]

I didn't call Obama a "n."

If that's a fact, then we have no further argument on that point.

And I know you don't give a damn whether I support Obama, and I do not think I ever suggested that you did, or should.  Apparently you also think I'm a bigot.  I resent the implication, and I cannot imagine that I have been any more condescending to you than you apparently are being to me by casting aspersions upon my character, but I don't care to argue with you on this point.  I still say your question is absurd and cannot be intelligently answered.  That's really the only intelligent thing I can say about the question.

Also, I think I meant obstetrician, not pediatrician.  Other than that, I stand by all that I said.

[elcorazon]

I've given this some thought in light of Obama's inability to put Hillary away and the racial results in the last few states (esp. Mississippi) and I think that Obama wouldn't have made the speech in 2004 were he white, so in the pure cause/effect question he likely wouldn't have had the exposure to gain the foothold that he gained. 

BUT, on the other hand, while he is dominating among blacks, largely due to his race, I think he is unable to totally win over the lower income whites because of his race.  Frankly, I was hoping that we as a people were better than this.  But I'm beginning to doubt that a black can get elected in this country.  This guy is truly loved, etc. and yet people are scared to vote for the black guy.

kinda depressing, frankly.  If Obama were white, he'd have the nomination wrapped up already.

[Sam Spade]

Against Hillary?  He wouldn't have had a chance.  This is the Democratic party, remember.

[elcorazon]

Against Hillary?  He wouldn't have had a chance.  This is the Democratic party, remember.

I honestly think that Democrats were seeking an alternative to Hillary.  They picked Barack.  I think that they would have done so where he black, white, pink or yellow, based on his ability to INSPIRE them. 

Although I don't think he would have even run if he were white, assuming he had, I think he would have wrapped it up already if he were white.  Clearly being black wasn't helpful in Iowa.  Yet I wonder if being black could have cost him NH, possibly MA, maybe NJ, probably Ohio, maybe Texas. 

your mileage may vary.

[Sam Spade]

Against Hillary?  He wouldn't have had a chance.  This is the Democratic party, remember.

I honestly think that Democrats were seeking an alternative to Hillary.  They picked Barack.  I think that they would have done so where he black, white, pink or yellow, based on his ability to INSPIRE them. 

Although I don't think he would have even run if he were white, assuming he had, I think he would have wrapped it up already if he were white.  Clearly being black wasn't helpful in Iowa.  Yet I wonder if being black could have cost him NH, possibly MA, maybe NJ, probably Ohio, maybe Texas. 

your mileage may vary.

How many delegates do you think he would have picked up in Mississippi last evening if he were white?

[elcorazon]

Against Hillary?  He wouldn't have had a chance.  This is the Democratic party, remember.

I honestly think that Democrats were seeking an alternative to Hillary.  They picked Barack.  I think that they would have done so where he black, white, pink or yellow, based on his ability to INSPIRE them. 

Although I don't think he would have even run if he were white, assuming he had, I think he would have wrapped it up already if he were white.  Clearly being black wasn't helpful in Iowa.  Yet I wonder if being black could have cost him NH, possibly MA, maybe NJ, probably Ohio, maybe Texas. 

your mileage may vary.

How many delegates do you think he would have picked up in Mississippi last evening if he were white?

1.  woulda been moot as he would have wrapped it up
2.  probably more than half because he would be getting all the anti-hillary vote, which would include most of the white vote and a fair amount of the black vote as well.

[JSojourner]

Basically same.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

So, discuss. IMO, actually worse, which highlights why Clinton must be really disappointed. Without Obama the black vote would probably have been pretty solidly for her.

omg rAecist!!!1111 rEsign!!!!11