Hillary! cries AGAIN!!!!!!!

[Aizen]

If it were Obama crying 3 times this forum would be lighting up about how human and connected to America he is.

no we wouldn't. we'd be making fun of him for being a girly-man, even those of us who support him.

You're too smart to believe that Hillary's tears are genuine: they're clearly calculated to appear at opportune moments in order to connect with working class women who feel themselves to be victims of sexism.

What can't men cry without being called girly men? What's wrong with being 'girly' anyway? I am so sick of politicians' faux toughness or real toughness that is shown in a lack of compassion and over-aggressiveness in foreign policy. And the societal values that underpin those stereotypes.

I agree with you. However, we are discussing politics here and the ramifications if Obama were to cry would be absolutely devastating to his campaign.

[Beet]

If it were Obama crying 3 times this forum would be lighting up about how human and connected to America he is.

no we wouldn't. we'd be making fun of him for being a girly-man, even those of us who support him.

You're too smart to believe that Hillary's tears are genuine: they're clearly calculated to appear at opportune moments in order to connect with working class women who feel themselves to be victims of sexism.

What can't men cry without being called girly men? What's wrong with being 'girly' anyway? I am so sick of politicians' faux toughness or real toughness that is shown in a lack of compassion and over-aggressiveness in foreign policy. And the societal values that underpin those stereotypes.

I agree with you. However, we are discussing politics here and the ramifications if Obama were to cry would be absolutely devastating to his campaign.

Well, saying that there is a double standard out there and saying that you would perpetuate that double standard yourself are different things.

If Obama cried, in a genuine moment, for an understandable reason, I wouldn't hold it against him at all.

[Aizen]

If it were Obama crying 3 times this forum would be lighting up about how human and connected to America he is.

no we wouldn't. we'd be making fun of him for being a girly-man, even those of us who support him.

You're too smart to believe that Hillary's tears are genuine: they're clearly calculated to appear at opportune moments in order to connect with working class women who feel themselves to be victims of sexism.

What can't men cry without being called girly men? What's wrong with being 'girly' anyway? I am so sick of politicians' faux toughness or real toughness that is shown in a lack of compassion and over-aggressiveness in foreign policy. And the societal values that underpin those stereotypes.

I agree with you. However, we are discussing politics here and the ramifications if Obama were to cry would be absolutely devastating to his campaign.

Well, saying that there is a double standard out there and saying that you would perpetuate that double standard yourself are different things.

If Obama cried, in a genuine moment, for an understandable reason, I wouldn't hold it against him at all.

Uh, I actually didn't hold it against Hillary when she cried for the first time in NH. I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I said if Obama cried three times then he would be a pansy and thus I would have to raise concerns. Seems fair to hold Clinton to that same standard. Especially since I'm having trouble believing all these tears are genuine. If they are not, she's evil and conniving. If they are, then she is proving herself emotionally fragile. Either way you look at it it is unbecoming.

[Gabu]

If Obama cried, in a genuine moment, for an understandable reason, I wouldn't hold it against him at all.

Like I said (sort of): fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

I fully gave Hillary the benefit of the doubt the first time and thought it was just a sign of humanity.  But three times now?  My ability to continue to give her the benefit of the doubt is wearing thin.  She hasn't cried this entire election season and now when people are actually voting, she's conveniently cried three times.  Either the tears are a political ploy or she's buckling under the pressure, and neither is particularly good.

[Beet]

If it were Obama crying 3 times this forum would be lighting up about how human and connected to America he is.

no we wouldn't. we'd be making fun of him for being a girly-man, even those of us who support him.

You're too smart to believe that Hillary's tears are genuine: they're clearly calculated to appear at opportune moments in order to connect with working class women who feel themselves to be victims of sexism.

What can't men cry without being called girly men? What's wrong with being 'girly' anyway? I am so sick of politicians' faux toughness or real toughness that is shown in a lack of compassion and over-aggressiveness in foreign policy. And the societal values that underpin those stereotypes.

I agree with you. However, we are discussing politics here and the ramifications if Obama were to cry would be absolutely devastating to his campaign.

Well, saying that there is a double standard out there and saying that you would perpetuate that double standard yourself are different things.

If Obama cried, in a genuine moment, for an understandable reason, I wouldn't hold it against him at all.

Uh, I actually didn't hold it against Hillary when she cried for the first time in NH. I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I said if Obama cried three times then he would be a pansy and thus I would have to raise concerns. Seems fair to hold Clinton to that same standard. Especially since I'm having trouble believing all these tears are genuine. If they are not, she's evil and conniving. If they are, then she is proving herself emotionally fragile. Either way you look at it it is unbecoming.

I agree that three times in one month seems to be a lot. Still, the first time wasn't a full blown cry, and I'm not sure if the other two times were either. Personally I think she feels more free to show her emotions than Barack because she knows that it would be seen in a more sympathetic light. But I do think it's interesting that before this year, she was constantly criticized for being not emotional enough. So it's a swing in perception in certain corners from one extreme to the other. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in between?

[Beet]

If Obama cried, in a genuine moment, for an understandable reason, I wouldn't hold it against him at all.

Like I said (sort of): fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

I fully gave Hillary the benefit of the doubt the first time and thought it was just a sign of humanity.  But three times now?  My ability to continue to give her the benefit of the doubt is wearing thin.  She hasn't cried this entire election season and now when people are actually voting, she's conveniently cried three times.  Either the tears are a political ploy or she's buckling under the pressure, and neither is particularly good.

As I said to Aizen, it's probably somewhere in between. She sees that crying has not hurt her, and may even have helped her once, so she feels more free to. I don't think she's buckling under political pressure- evidence of that would be angry outbursts or gaffes, or visible fatigue on the campaign trail. That hasn't happened. It's probably that she has some genuine emotion and feels free to show it.

[Gabu]

But the thing is that I'm a private citizen who cares nothing about what anyone else thinks, and I sure don't cry twice a week.  I just have a very hard time believing that it's genuine.  It seems in too large a quantity and far too conveniently timed.

[gmo]

I finally followed the link to see what the supposed hubbub was.  This, like the previous "event", just does not look like much to me.  It is maybe meaningful to those pre-disposed against her and those strongly for her but only to further those same feelings.  This is like the Edwards "angry" stump speeches - he was either connecting and passionate or scheming and out-of-touch.

Seems doubtful many people have heard about anything beyond the first instance in NH.  I suppose it could do more than swing exceedingly few people if the talking heads or byline names go nuts.  But I have grown tired of the issue myself and wonder if the many others have too.  What is so awful about this compared to any of the other emotions revealed during the campaigning process?

Maybe this version of Clinton-style "I feel your pain" (and note it is not tears of "I cannot handle the heat") is real or not.  I suspect this emotional expression is at least a touch of both, which puts it right in line with all the other candidates most of the time as well as there together with the emotional displays of a whole lot of poll-head observers.

[Ben.]

If it were Obama crying 3 times this forum would be lighting up about how human and connected to America he is.

It really wouldnt... having said that she is getting somthing of a raw deal on the whole "crying lark", it's simply a product of her image as some kind of unfeeling, manipulative, harpy... not fair but not surprising.

More worryingly for her, regardless of the truth behind the 'tears' is that if it starts happening all the time it could rebound, she was seen to have come from behind in NH thanks to turning on the water works, if she cries more often then it's likley she will be seen by some to be play acting in an effort to win a sympathy vote.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This is an ugly thread. Yeuch.

[Iosif is a COTHO]

Oh come on people, she's not deliberately crying.

The NH tears weren't fake, but they were still pathetic, because they were tears of self-pity.

But the last two incidents have fairly obviously been natural reactions to sob stories other people have given. She is a woman, you know. Most women cry far more than most men, it doesn't necessarily make them more emotionally fragile or more manipulative. I'm a big Obama fan, but come one she's not that bad.

[Ben.]

Oh come on people, she's not deliberately crying.

The NH tears weren't fake, but they were still pathetic, because they were tears of self-pity.

But the last two incidents have fairly obviously been natural reactions to sob stories other people have given. She is a woman, you know. Most women cry far more than most men, it doesn't necessarily make them more emotionally fragile or more manipulative. I'm a big Obama fan, but come one she's not that bad.

Agree... it's probably not clever politics, but the thing which gets me is not the sincerity (or lack of) in her tears but the way in which they seem to have been prompted by folks telling her how wonderful she is. 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Oh come on people, she's not deliberately crying.

The NH tears weren't fake, but they were still pathetic, because they were tears of self-pity.

But the last two incidents have fairly obviously been natural reactions to sob stories other people have given. She is a woman, you know. Most women cry far more than most men, it doesn't necessarily make them more emotionally fragile or more manipulative. I'm a big Obama fan, but come one she's not that bad.

You should remember that these people were all children when Bubba was in the White House. Presumably much of the, really rather nasty no matter how you cut it, propaganda directed at Hillary Clinton at the time seeped through somehow. Stuff like that can happen; to pick an example I'm interested in, a lot of people who were children during the late 1970's have very different memories (and ones much more influenced by the media) of the Winter of Discontent to their parents.

[Gustaf]

To be fair, the pressure is obviously higher during an election campaign like this. I suspect it's a bit of both which is actually human both ways.

[Saxwsylvania]

If this is calculated, then I wonder what other ploys her advisers are thinking up.  They would obviously have to be things that stress the maternal, feminine side of Hillary, and gain sympathy from women's voters.

But I think what's really going on here is that she's egging Obama on, hoping he'll make a comment about it "Bitch, you can't swim your way to the White House!" like Edwards did on the first incident.  Remember what that slimebag had to say?

If Obama is that stupid - which he isn't - then the press would cover what Obama had to say, and what a jerk he is.  This will go with the meme from the Clintons that Obama is running a sexist campaign.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Obama seems to be giving her a lot to cry about lately.

[8 out of 11 is not deserved]

Tears aren't working.

Time for her to start "passing" out from exhaustion but getting up to finish her speech.

Mark my words...this will be the next stage of dramatics

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

[Willy Woz]

What can't men cry without being called girly men?

Because modern society isn't that PC yet.

[Beet]

What can't men cry without being called girly men?

Because modern society isn't that PC yet.

The only thing PC lately has been support of Obama and Hillary-bashing, Willy.

[Willy Woz]

What can't men cry without being called girly men?

Because modern society isn't that PC yet.

The only thing PC lately has been support of Obama and Hillary-bashing, Willy.

Hillary is about as PC as you can get. Charlie Rose endorses her.

[Beet]

What can't men cry without being called girly men?

Because modern society isn't that PC yet.

The only thing PC lately has been support of Obama and Hillary-bashing, Willy.

Hillary is about as PC as you can get. Charlie Rose endorses her.

That depends on how you define PC. I define it as content-neutral: PC is something that the overwhelming majority of the political establishment, as well as the zeitgeist, is behind, and in that capacity it can be applied to any position in theory. For example, after 9/11, the idea that our politicians had to be "manly men" was quite PC.

[Willy Woz]

For example, after 9/11, the idea that our politicians had to be "manly men" was quite PC.

PC to me means advocating extreme liberalism. For instance, Ted Kennedy, no matter how unpopular his views are, is PC.

[Beet]

For example, after 9/11, the idea that our politicians had to be "manly men" was quite PC.

PC to me means advocating extreme liberalism. For instance, Ted Kennedy, no matter how unpopular his views are, is PC.

Then there is nothing wrong with PC to me, at least in certain respects

I do not think advocates of your position can have it both ways. If you choose to use that term to define extreme liberalism, then realize that not everyone will agree it is a bad thing automatically.

[Aizen]

Sorry, what does PC mean? (Stupid question maybe)