Gay Marriage- a general discussion.

[Akno21]

Why don't you both shut up about all topics not related to Gay Marriage and have a civilized debate?

[Josh/Devilman88]

I think Gay Marriage is wrong. If it was right for two men to get marriage then they would be able to make a kid together... well they can't only a Woman and a man can make a kid together..

[Akno21]

So you are saying it is unnatural? It isn't "right" to deny two loving people the option of marriage. And I'm still waiting for someone to answer my question.

[Josh/Devilman88]

So you are saying it is unnatural? It isn't "right" to deny two loving people the option of marriage. And I'm still waiting for someone to answer my question.

What was your question, I love my dog, can i marry it?

[Brambila]

So you are saying it is unnatural? It isn't "right" to deny two loving people the option of marriage. And I'm still waiting for someone to answer my question.

Yes, it is unnatural, just as it is unnatural for men to love little boys, and just to prevent them from marrying or what not.

[TomatoSoup]

YOU don't love little boys. (Especially not me). YOU don't have to marry your son. YOU don't have marry gay. This is all about obligation. Since no one is making you do it, then why are you complaining? Did I mention that you STILL haven't answered akno's question?

[Akno21]

My question:

IF YOUR NEIGHBOR IS GAY, AND HE MARRIES ANOTHER GAY PERSON, HOW DOES THAT HARM YOU?

[John Dibble]

It really irks me when people compare gay marriage to marrying children.  There's a big difference - one is between two consenting adults and the other is between at least one party that is not yet competent enough to give consent for such a decision.

And no, you can't marry your dog in a legal sense(though I'm sure you could get some wierdo church to do it) because your dog is not a citizen or a person - it is an animal. It does not pay taxes, and it is considered property. You can not marry property. A dog also has no way to really give consent, because it doesn't even understand the abstract concept of marriage.

If you would like to argue against gay marriage, keep it to gay marriage. When other types come up, argue against those differently, because they are different. There are different arguments against polygamy you could use if that came up, because polygamy is not the same as a two person marriage of any form.

[Brambila]

Homosexuality and pedophilia have a lot in common, and as far as rights go they are identicle. Thirty years ago, homosexuals were calling for the same rights pedophiles wanted. Sodomy, like sex with minors, was outlawed, and were both condemned greatly. Nonetheless, homosexuals inched their way to legalize sodomy, and now begin to have marriage. It took them a while to take over the ACLU, the APA, and other organizations but they did it. Currently, NAMBLA is at the same stage that LAMBDA was in 1971- begging for rights. Saying that the government is restricting them from loving somebody.

Also in the same way, pedophilia and homosexuality have a similar disorder. Generally speaking in psychology, if you were abused as a child, your risks of becoming a homosexual or pedophile greaten. Pedophilia and homosexuality, in other words, stem from the same problem- abuse; neglect; parental imbalance. A child that grows up in a two-parent household and gets a good balance from both parents is likely to be successful. On the contrary, a child with only one parent, two parents/guardians of the same sex, or a child who has parental imbalance has a higher risk of having psychological problems when he grows up, most commonly homosexuality and voilence, and ocassionally pedophilia.

So to answer your question, Akno, at the same time as responding to John Dibble, how does gay marriage effect me? It doesn't. But neither does rape effect me; neither does 40-year-old men sleeping with 6-year-old children effect me; neither does murder effect me. That argument is logically flawed.

[Josh/Devilman88]

My question:

IF YOUR NEIGHBOR IS GAY, AND HE MARRIES ANOTHER GAY PERSON, HOW DOES THAT HARM YOU?

Well for one, I don't want my kids to see two guys kissing out on the front lawn. Also, If they was living in NC they would have rocks thrown that there house and I dont want someone coming by and shooting at them and miss and hit me or any my kids.....

[John Dibble]

Brambila -

Two things -

1. You completely ignored one of my points - CONSENT. Adults can give consent, children can not. Adults have the mental faculties to understand the seriousness of marriage and sex(though, sometimes even adults ignore these) and children do not. A child can not operate a vehicle, an adult can, why? Because an adult is developed, a child is not. NAMBLA will never get their way for this very reason - they can beg all they want but it won't happen.

2. Back up your statements with the research and studies you attained your information from. Link me to the studies that you have stated, so I can review them and, if necessary and possible, disprove or discredit them. For instance, you say homosexuality stems from "abuse, neglect, and parental imbalance". My uncle is gay, and yet his parents were normal, loving, and balanced, and both my aunt and my father are straight. If homosexuality, and even pedophilia, stem from such things, why then do some people with completely normal parents end up like that? Can you even prove that the majority of homosexuals were abused, neglected, and had imbalance parents? EDIT - Also, I do realize pedophilia is indeed a disorder, but my point is that if you claim its cause is linked to the cause of homosexuality then you need to prove it.

[Fritz]

Dibble, you might as well give it up.  I have had all these arguments with Brambila already, I have explained that I was not abused or neglected as a child in any way but I still turned out gay, but nothing anyone says can get him to see that he is wrong about this.  As for his facts and figures, I think he makes them up.

[Akno21]

My question:

IF YOUR NEIGHBOR IS GAY, AND HE MARRIES ANOTHER GAY PERSON, HOW DOES THAT HARM YOU?

Well for one, I don't want my kids to see two guys kissing out on the front lawn. Also, If they was living in NC they would have rocks thrown that there house and I dont want someone coming by and shooting at them and miss and hit me or any my kids.....

What makes me think you would take or have taken, (I don't know if you have them) your kids to see Passion of the Christ, a movie with much more horrifing scenes then two men kissing. Teach your kids to accept people who are different, not shut them down. Now that is a real logical argument, your second one. I guess you couldn't live in the South during the Civil Rights Movement, you would probably have a black neighor and rocks were thrown at their houses plenty of times.

[Josh/Devilman88]

My question:

IF YOUR NEIGHBOR IS GAY, AND HE MARRIES ANOTHER GAY PERSON, HOW DOES THAT HARM YOU?

Well for one, I don't want my kids to see two guys kissing out on the front lawn. Also, If they was living in NC they would have rocks thrown that there house and I dont want someone coming by and shooting at them and miss and hit me or any my kids.....

What makes me think you would take or have taken, (I don't know if you have them) your kids to see Passion of the Christ, a movie with much more horrifing scenes then two men kissing. Teach your kids to accept people who are different, not shut them down. Now that is a real logical argument, your second one. I guess you couldn't live in the South during the Civil Rights Movement, you would probably have a black neighor and rocks were thrown at their houses plenty of times.

I will teach my kids(when I have them) the same way as my mom. Gay people are wrong for beging gay. The Bilbe preaches that it is wrong...Also what does the Passion have to do with anything?

[Akno21]

My question:

IF YOUR NEIGHBOR IS GAY, AND HE MARRIES ANOTHER GAY PERSON, HOW DOES THAT HARM YOU?

Well for one, I don't want my kids to see two guys kissing out on the front lawn. Also, If they was living in NC they would have rocks thrown that there house and I dont want someone coming by and shooting at them and miss and hit me or any my kids.....

What makes me think you would take or have taken, (I don't know if you have them) your kids to see Passion of the Christ, a movie with much more horrifing scenes then two men kissing. Teach your kids to accept people who are different, not shut them down. Now that is a real logical argument, your second one. I guess you couldn't live in the South during the Civil Rights Movement, you would probably have a black neighor and rocks were thrown at their houses plenty of times.

I will teach my kids(when I have them) the same way as my mom. Gay people are wrong for beging gay. The Bilbe preaches that it is wrong...Also what does the Passion have to do with anything?

My point with Passion is, two men kissing would be rated PG (possibly PG-13, depending on who is actually doing the ratings, although Holloywood is liberal, and more accepting of gays) while seeing Jesus get burned and all that stuff was rated R and is a bit more disturbing.

"Gay people are wrong for being gay" That is about the craziest thing I have ever heard. A) How is a person "wrong" B) What would you do if a gay man saved your child from drowning in a pool or burning in a fire?

I judge things by my own common sense, not the bible's opinion's.

[Josh/Devilman88]

My question:

IF YOUR NEIGHBOR IS GAY, AND HE MARRIES ANOTHER GAY PERSON, HOW DOES THAT HARM YOU?

Well for one, I don't want my kids to see two guys kissing out on the front lawn. Also, If they was living in NC they would have rocks thrown that there house and I dont want someone coming by and shooting at them and miss and hit me or any my kids.....

What makes me think you would take or have taken, (I don't know if you have them) your kids to see Passion of the Christ, a movie with much more horrifing scenes then two men kissing. Teach your kids to accept people who are different, not shut them down. Now that is a real logical argument, your second one. I guess you couldn't live in the South during the Civil Rights Movement, you would probably have a black neighor and rocks were thrown at their houses plenty of times.

I will teach my kids(when I have them) the same way as my mom. Gay people are wrong for beging gay. The Bilbe preaches that it is wrong...Also what does the Passion have to do with anything?

My point with Passion is, two men kissing would be rated PG (possibly PG-13, depending on who is actually doing the ratings, although Holloywood is liberal, and more accepting of gays) while seeing Jesus get burned and all that stuff was rated R and is a bit more disturbing.

"Gay people are wrong for being gay" That is about the craziest thing I have ever heard. A) How is a person "wrong" B) What would you do if a gay man saved your child from drowning in a pool or burning in a fire?

I judge things by my own common sense, not the bible's opinion's.

What a liberal... thing someone can't be wrong.... Gau people are wrong because the Bible says so, and trust me God wrote the bible thorough men.. and God has awhole lot more common sense then you.

Yea I can tell J

[Brambila]

I addressed consent, John. Sex with minors is illegal, correct, but so was sodomy. Hence, you're simply begging the question by continuing this. Further, children are often more mentally stable than their parents.One of my friends basically had to raise his three siblings because his parents were alcoholics. At a young age (fifth grade), he was already providing for the family. He had a real sense of responsibility. This is a mere example of hundreds of cases where children are more mentally stable than parents. Similarly, the argument for homosexuals is that because they are suffering from a mental disorder, they cannot truly make the decision to have sexual intercourse or marry based on true love or anything for that matter. They are not mentally stable.

Firstly, I'd like two remind you that my best friend is has same-sex attractions (I don't like the words "gay" and "homosexual" too much), two of my good friends have the same disorder, my uncle is a homosexual (I can define him as such because he practices it), my aunts best friend is a homosexual, and I can list of several names of my peers who are homosexual (I live in San Francisco). Every single one of them has had some sort of parental imbalance, has been abused, neglected, or sexually molested. None of them had normal childhoods. I once went to an Alcoholics meeting (not AA), and surprisingly of the homosexuals there who were speaking, most of them had sexual molestation or parental imbalance as children. Courage, a Catholic group seeking to help people with same-sex attractions find these cases all the time.

The study took place in 2001, by Archives of Sexual Behavior, which is a prestigious orgnization and APA-approved. The study, "Comparative Data of Childhood and Adolescence Molestation in Heterosexual and Homosexual Persons", took a sample of 942 adults who were not clinically treated. They were both homosexual and heterosexual. Of this study, 46% of homosexual men and 22% of homosexual owmen said that they were molested by homosexuals. In the same study, only 7% of heterosexual men and 1% of heterosexual women were molested by homosexuals. Interestingly, when asked who was molested, twice as many homosexuals said that they were molested than heterosexuals.

Here's a link to the study.

Besides the fact that you don't know how much your grandparents gave attention to your uncle, this doesn't happen to everyone. Sometimes, people get same-sex attractions for other reasons. My point is that most homosexuals have had these problems as children. It does not only spark homosexual attraction- it sparks homosexual addiction. Very few homosexuals have had partners for over five years, even married ones. In the book Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women , the authors reported that 43% of homosxual men had at least 500 partners, and 28% of these had over a thousand. I can't find this study online, but I'm sure you can find the book in the library. It's by AP Weinburg I believe.

[Akno21]

My question:

IF YOUR NEIGHBOR IS GAY, AND HE MARRIES ANOTHER GAY PERSON, HOW DOES THAT HARM YOU?

Well for one, I don't want my kids to see two guys kissing out on the front lawn. Also, If they was living in NC they would have rocks thrown that there house and I dont want someone coming by and shooting at them and miss and hit me or any my kids.....

What makes me think you would take or have taken, (I don't know if you have them) your kids to see Passion of the Christ, a movie with much more horrifing scenes then two men kissing. Teach your kids to accept people who are different, not shut them down. Now that is a real logical argument, your second one. I guess you couldn't live in the South during the Civil Rights Movement, you would probably have a black neighor and rocks were thrown at their houses plenty of times.

I will teach my kids(when I have them) the same way as my mom. Gay people are wrong for beging gay. The Bilbe preaches that it is wrong...Also what does the Passion have to do with anything?

My point with Passion is, two men kissing would be rated PG (possibly PG-13, depending on who is actually doing the ratings, although Holloywood is liberal, and more accepting of gays) while seeing Jesus get burned and all that stuff was rated R and is a bit more disturbing.

"Gay people are wrong for being gay" That is about the craziest thing I have ever heard. A) How is a person "wrong" B) What would you do if a gay man saved your child from drowning in a pool or burning in a fire?

I judge things by my own common sense, not the bible's opinion's.

What a liberal... thing someone can't be wrong.... Gau people are wrong because the Bible says so, and trust me God wrote the bible thorough men.. and God has awhole lot more common sense then you.

Yea I can tell J

"Gays are wrong because the bible says so" Think for yourself!

[??????????]

The best quote ever about this subject on this forum. I still crack up about it!


Some of you will remember.

I HATE GUY PEOPLE
BUT I PRAY FOR THEM

[Brambila]

States, that is a classic.

[Josh/Devilman88]

My question:

IF YOUR NEIGHBOR IS GAY, AND HE MARRIES ANOTHER GAY PERSON, HOW DOES THAT HARM YOU?

Well for one, I don't want my kids to see two guys kissing out on the front lawn. Also, If they was living in NC they would have rocks thrown that there house and I dont want someone coming by and shooting at them and miss and hit me or any my kids.....

What makes me think you would take or have taken, (I don't know if you have them) your kids to see Passion of the Christ, a movie with much more horrifing scenes then two men kissing. Teach your kids to accept people who are different, not shut them down. Now that is a real logical argument, your second one. I guess you couldn't live in the South during the Civil Rights Movement, you would probably have a black neighor and rocks were thrown at their houses plenty of times.

I will teach my kids(when I have them) the same way as my mom. Gay people are wrong for beging gay. The Bilbe preaches that it is wrong...Also what does the Passion have to do with anything?

My point with Passion is, two men kissing would be rated PG (possibly PG-13, depending on who is actually doing the ratings, although Holloywood is liberal, and more accepting of gays) while seeing Jesus get burned and all that stuff was rated R and is a bit more disturbing.

"Gay people are wrong for being gay" That is about the craziest thing I have ever heard. A) How is a person "wrong" B) What would you do if a gay man saved your child from drowning in a pool or burning in a fire?

I judge things by my own common sense, not the bible's opinion's.

What a liberal... thing someone can't be wrong.... Gau people are wrong because the Bible says so, and trust me God wrote the bible thorough men.. and God has awhole lot more common sense then you.

Yea I can tell J

"Gays are wrong because the bible says so" Think for yourself!

Hmm ok i will go by the bible and you won't... then we will see who goes to heaven and who goes to hell....

[John Dibble]

I addressed consent, John. Sex with minors is illegal, correct, but so was sodomy. Hence, you're simply begging the question by continuing this. Further, children are often more mentally stable than their parents.One of my friends basically had to raise his three siblings because his parents were alcoholics. At a young age (fifth grade), he was already providing for the family. He had a real sense of responsibility. This is a mere example of hundreds of cases where children are more mentally stable than parents. Similarly, the argument for homosexuals is that because they are suffering from a mental disorder, they cannot truly make the decision to have sexual intercourse or marry based on true love or anything for that matter. They are not mentally stable.

Firstly, I'd like two remind you that my best friend is has same-sex attractions (I don't like the words "gay" and "homosexual" too much), two of my good friends have the same disorder, my uncle is a homosexual (I can define him as such because he practices it), my aunts best friend is a homosexual, and I can list of several names of my peers who are homosexual (I live in San Francisco). Every single one of them has had some sort of parental imbalance, has been abused, neglected, or sexually molested. None of them had normal childhoods. I once went to an Alcoholics meeting (not AA), and surprisingly of the homosexuals there who were speaking, most of them had sexual molestation or parental imbalance as children. Courage, a Catholic group seeking to help people with same-sex attractions find these cases all the time.

The study took place in 2001, by Archives of Sexual Behavior, which is a prestigious orgnization and APA-approved. The study, "Comparative Data of Childhood and Adolescence Molestation in Heterosexual and Homosexual Persons", took a sample of 942 adults who were not clinically treated. They were both homosexual and heterosexual. Of this study, 46% of homosexual men and 22% of homosexual owmen said that they were molested by homosexuals. In the same study, only 7% of heterosexual men and 1% of heterosexual women were molested by homosexuals. Interestingly, when asked who was molested, twice as many homosexuals said that they were molested than heterosexuals.

Here's a link to the study.

Besides the fact that you don't know how much your grandparents gave attention to your uncle, this doesn't happen to everyone. Sometimes, people get same-sex attractions for other reasons. My point is that most homosexuals have had these problems as children. It does not only spark homosexual attraction- it sparks homosexual addiction. Very few homosexuals have had partners for over five years, even married ones. In the book Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women , the authors reported that 43% of homosxual men had at least 500 partners, and 28% of these had over a thousand. I can't find this study online, but I'm sure you can find the book in the library. It's by AP Weinburg I believe.

Thank you for linking the study. Now, on to the debate:

1. First off, you connect mental stability with mental competence. While most mentally unstable people are mentally incompetent, mental stability doesn't mean mental cometence(I can be completely normal, but that doesn't necessarily mean I make good decisions, I could have bad judgement). Yes, there are cases where children rise above adversity, but I have to disagree, most children(especially younger children) are less mentally competent than their parents - if they were then they wouldn't need parents, now would they? They'd have the competence to raise themselves. Are there exceptions? Certainly. But your personal experience is not necessarily a reflection of the whole.

2. Once again, your friends and relatives, your personal experiences. Doesn't reflect the whole. When I used my uncle as an example, it was to provide an exception. And yes, I do have a good idea of how good my grandparents are. They produced three wonderful people. Also, I'd like to point out that my uncle is quite a successful individual(runs his own business, has lots of friends, ect.), he is a light alcoholic and sometimes makes bad personal decisions, but this is more from the fact that he is bi-polar(and now that he's on meds for that, he's much more stable).

3. The study looks sound, and I'll believe you that the APA approves of them. However, this shows correlation, not causation. Homosexual children may be more likely to put themselves in situations where they may be molested(an adult of the same sex may show excessive affection, so the child would more likely hang around than be wierded out, and the adult ends up being a pedophile and molesting them). Or, it could be something in the genetics of the parents, makes them more abusive or neglectful, and some of the bad genes get passed to the child, and since the parent is that way they abuse and neglect the child. I may be wrong on these, but as I said, correlation does not equal causation.

4. On the last study you mentioned, the one with the extremly high, ludicrous stats. Probably the result of bad study methods. I'd like to reference one Paul Cameron. The stats you referenced were likely based on his studies. The probelm with Mr. Cameron is is that he has no credibility - he's been kicked out of the APA, Nebraska Psychological Association, and American Sociological Association. He was kicked out not because of his views on homosexuality(very, VERY negative), but because his methods for compiling statistics were poor and he intentionally misrepresented the studies of others within those organizations. For instance, he used obituaries in gay community newspapers to determine the average lifespan of homosexuals, which didn't account for gays still in the closet, those who did not involve themselves in gay communities, those who's families didn't think to send obituaries to gay community newspapers or just didn't write an obituary, ect., in other words just a poor sampling. Just remember - not all studies are scientifically valid, so before you accept one as truth find out what research methods were used, was the sampling both random and consisting of a broad population(for instance, if you wanted to do a study on a certain race, it wouldn't be valid to only include subjects who live in the ghetto, or only subjects who live outside of it, you have to have a range of both that are representative of the actual ratio), and do other valid studies back it up.

On another note, I will admit that most scientifically valid studies do show that homosexuals are a bit more promiscuous than heterosexuals(particularly during their teen years), but this could be due to them feeling outcast and using sex as a form of acceptance to feel loved. I'm no expert, so I can't be sure - just remember the all important thing about studies - correlation does not equal causation.

[John Dibble]

One more thing - just for those who'd like to see it, this is the APA's official stance on sexual orientation: http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html

[Josh/Devilman88]

One more thing - just for those who'd like to see it, this is the APA's official stance on sexual orientation: http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html

The APA is a wackyo liberal group

[John Dibble]

One more thing - just for those who'd like to see it, this is the APA's official stance on sexual orientation: http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html

The APA is a wackyo liberal group

Yeah, whatever wackyo is

jk, I posted the link because they were mentioned, no other reason really