Israel

[ottermax]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

[ottermax]

Oh, and Happy Yom Hatzmaut!

[Хahar 🤔]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

Jews don't deserve a country if it's in a place where plenty of other people not to blame for the scapegoating live. And the idea of religiously based nation-states is largely passé.

[Iosif is a COTHO]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

so you think that if the U.S Government suddenly decided it wanted to commit genocide against Jews, they'd be safe in Israel?

[ottermax]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

so you think that if the U.S Government suddenly decided it wanted to commit genocide against Jews, they'd be safe in Israel?

Yes. at least safer or at we can die in the holy land...

[Kaine for Senate '18]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

so you think that if the U.S Government suddenly decided it wanted to commit genocide against Jews, they'd be safe in Israel?

No, but that is highly unlikely.

[Хahar 🤔]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

so you think that if the U.S Government suddenly decided it wanted to commit genocide against Jews, they'd be safe in Israel?

No, but that is highly unlikely.

Exactly.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

so you think that if the U.S Government suddenly decided it wanted to commit genocide against Jews, they'd be safe in Israel?

No, but that is highly unlikely.

Exactly.

I fail to see your point.

[Хahar 🤔]

If you say that Jews don't deserve the land because they "invaded" it, then how do you explain the Arabs there. They invaded the region too. Why don't we just give the land back to the biblical Canaanites, the first people there? Wait, they don't exist! Israel has fought for that land and it is only half of the land that originally belonged to Jews in the bible. Israel is the only homeland for the Jews. Muslims have many countries for themselves. There are plenty of Christian majority countries as well. Israel does have many problems and they need to be fixed, but the Jews need a country of their own!

Yeah? After 3000 years, any land claims you have are meaningless. Or else Lebensraum would've made sense.

And I totally dispute that last sentence. Jews are doing very well for themselves in America and other Western countries.

Why don't Jews deserve a country? They were doing well in Germany for awhile, but then they got scapegoated. At least Muslims can leave if everyone starts to hate them, but without Israel, Jews would have nowhere to go.

so you think that if the U.S Government suddenly decided it wanted to commit genocide against Jews, they'd be safe in Israel?

No, but that is highly unlikely.

Exactly.

I fail to see your point.

Unfortunate, isn't it?

[dead0man]

Wow... and here I thought that would make the debate devolve into some kinda Buckley/Vidal shouting match that ended in you calling my a crypto fascists and me calling you a queer.

We're getting there!  I predict page 11.

[Franzl]

Lots of arrogance and stupidity in this thread...a couple of posters have lost some of my sympathy.

Israel is not perfect, and it might not have been the best idea, the way it was formed, but that's history now.

As long as arabs are firing rockets at civilians in Israel, and are walking into shopping malls blowing things up, I have to side with Israel.

And anybody that knows me will confirm that I am in no way neo-conservative.


Of course, some of the posters defending Israel, trying to claim that God gave them the land, and seriously want to use that as an argument, have lost their marbles too.

[GMantis]

Lots of arrogance and stupidity in this thread...a couple of posters have lost some of my sympathy.

Israel is not perfect, and it might not have been the best idea, the way it was formed, but that's history now.

As long as arabs are firing rockets at civilians in Israel, and are walking into shopping malls blowing things up, I have to side with Israel.

And anybody that knows me will confirm that I am in no way neo-conservative.


Of course, some of the posters defending Israel, trying to claim that God gave them the land, and seriously want to use that as an argument, have lost their marbles too.

A thoughtful and reasonable position, but while the Israeli are killing hundreds of Palestinians in retaliation, I can't sympathize with them.

[HardRCafé]

How dare they defend themselves!

[Хahar 🤔]

How dare they defend themselves!

If a bunch of Arabs claimed Illinois as their personal territory, they'd have no right to defend themselves.

[JohnFKennedy]

The Jews were perfectly willing to live side by side with Palestinians, in 1947.  It was the Palestinians who were totally unwilling to negotiate.  Just as it has been the Palestinians who have backed away from the table every single time since.

Unwilling to negotiate? I would say it was rather hard for the Palestinians to negotiate at all given that the British had dismantled both the Higher Arab Committee and the Supreme Muslim Council in 1936, leaving Palestinian Arabs lacking in effective and united leadership. So who represents the Palestinian cause? The Arab League whose member states were facing mounting domestic unrest and in many cases had an intrinsic interest in there not being a viable Palestinian state: for instance Abdullah of Jordan's involvement in the 1948 war was primarily a bid to control the Palestinian part of the partition, rather than any meaningful attempt at establishing an independent Palestinian state as the Israeli historian Avi Shlaim has shown in his work on the 1948 war (I'll be happy to give a reference if you want). It's also not true to suggest that it has been 'the Palestinians who have backed away from the table every single time since'; certainly Palestinian negotiators have rejected proposals for peace but so too have the Israelis, for instance with the 2003 Geneva Accord.

I would further disagree with your claim that 'the Jews were perfectly willing to live side by side with Palestinians, in 1947'. This is not to say that all Jews demonstrated hostility towards Palestinians, but certainly many did. I wonder why you think all the Palestinians living in what became Israel left their homes and land? Let's not forget that the UNSCOP committee found that Jews constituted only about a third of the population and owned roughly six percent of the total land in Palestine. So what happened to those 400,000 Palestinians? Certainly they resisted - as probably anyone would if they were being forced out of their homes - but were no match for the disciplined Haganah, or the terrorist attacks of the Irgun who perpetrated some horrific acts including the Dayr Yassin massacre. Benny Morris is probably the leading expert today on the 1948 Palestinian refugee problem (The Birth o the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949) and he doesn't ascribe it down to the orders of the Palestinian leadership (what leadership anyway?) or a planned Israeli policy but to the consequeneces of Haganah and Irgun actions; some were forced directly from their homes and others fled in fear at the prospect or were advised to leave by Arab forces in the region who subsequently ceded the villages to the Haganah (there was actually a good example of this on the BBC website yesterday).

As for the nation-state... Israel wanted to negotiate a Palestinian state from day one, but the Palestinians turned both Israel, and the ever precious U.N. down.

As I've said, there was no Palestinian negotiating force but an Arab League one.

The problem is that the Arabs didn't really establish their civilization on the land considered Israel-proper. The vast majority of Arabs that call themselves "Palestinians" were fairly recent immigrants to the land, mostly from the area now known as Jordan(although because Transjordan was a part of the Palestinian mandate, they were technically "Palestinians"). Jews had also been in that particular area of the Ottoman Empire that Israel was carved out of since at least the late 1400's(in Jerusalem, Hebron, and particularly in Tsfat). It's a myth that this area was some sort of vibrant civilization, because up until the late 1800's there weren't many Jews or Arabs there.

What? I'd like to here you tell that to the Crusaders who invaded in the twelfth century by which point the Arabs had been in control of Acre since the early seventh century and in Jerusalem for a similar length of time to name two examples. Perhaps you'll take my point from a higher authority - and I quote - 'A small territory that had been inhabited by an Arab majority for some 1,200 years was promised by a third party (Great Britain) as a national home to another people (the international Jewish community), the majority of whom lived in Eastern Europe' (William L. Cleveland, A History of the Modern Middle East, (Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 2004, 3rd ed), p 240)

But my point was really that the Israelis moved in with the permission of the rulers of the land at the time. I don't think the vast majority of Jewish inhabitants in Israel got their land by stealing it. They moved there, a conflict arose. Once the Arabs refused to negotiate, refused to divy it up and took to arms I can't say it is as emotionally appealing to hear complaints about losing property. They tried to get it al for themselves and it didn't work. The fundamental point is that they don't want Jews.

I think that is a bit of a simplistic approach to the problem. It was arguably the Jews who first sought a separation of the two communities through the agricultural settlements - moshavin and kibbutzim - of the second and third aliyot. These new migrants adopted a labour policy best summed up by their two slogans: 'conquest of land' and 'conquest of labour' which meant ensuring that only Jewish people fulfilled the jobs. This formed an essential part of the expansion of the Jewish population in the region as Arab labour was both plentiful and willing to work for lower wages than European Jews which would necessarily discourage immigration of new settlers. So this 'conquest of labour' necessarily meant the severing of ecnomic links between the two communities which naturally created tensions, particularly as Zionists were buying up land from largely absentee landlords and displacing Palestinian farmers who were no longer needed. Of course this leads to indigenous resistance, but as James Gelvin notes 'this resistance was mainly defensive, devoid of political goals, and rather haphazard' (Modern Middle East: A History, p.210). This is all prior to the First World War by the way.

I have already discussed Arab refusal to negotiate in my response to supersoulty, but just to reiterate, it is important that we draw this distinction that in 1947-8 it was not a Palestinian, but an Arab League decision not to negotiate. The Palestinians then emerge as the victims of the perfidy of foreign leaders.

How dare they defend themselves!

The problem is that the IDF often goes too far in defending Israel and kills innocent bystanders and not just Palestinian ones. I believe they have openly admitted to targetting civilian areas in Lebanon in 2006 with cluster bombs and I, unlike Xahar, will always condemn such actions even in the context of a war.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

How dare they defend themselves!

If a bunch of Arabs claimed Illinois as their personal territory, they'd have no right to defend themselves.

True, but the Jews didn't just claim Israel; the UN split the land, which had been owned by the UK, and the Arabs declared war, and lost, so they lost their land.

[dead0man]

How dare they defend themselves!

If a bunch of Arabs claimed Illinois as their personal territory, they'd have no right to defend themselves.

If they managed to hold onto it for several generations, then yeah, eventually the surrounding states would be retarded to continue getting their asses kicked.

[ottermax]

I have issues with the creation of Israel, but as a Jew, I'm so proud that it exists.

It is not perfect, that is clear. There needs to be a solution and I believe that Arabs must be integrated into Israel eventually, with a multiparty democracy based not on religion, but on real substance. That may take hundreds of years, but if people start to realize that the fighting is ridiculous, maybe they can learn to live with each other. Idealist, but I think it is possible.

Neither side has been thoughtful or reasonable. Emotions control all negotiations or ideas. Hatred prevails, not reason. The biggest foreboding problem is the disparity between Jews and Arabs. If the gaps widens, the hatred will increase and the violence will never end. Education, investment, and outreach toward Palestinians will help the Jews in the long run. In this world we cannot have theocracies or state religions. The world must learn to coexist and unite past trivial differences.

Finally, no group deserves the land of present day Israel, but the past will only distract from resolutions and a brighter future. Land changes control, but people are harder to change. We cannot find a solution to land disputes until the people of the region change their mindset.

[Iosif is a COTHO]

ottermax, that post is far too reasonable for an interent discussion of Israel. 

[GMantis]

ottermax, that post is far too reasonable for an interent discussion of Israel. 

And greatly contrasts with his previous posts in this topic.

[ottermax]

ottermax, that post is far too reasonable for an interent discussion of Israel. 

And greatly contrasts with his previous posts in this topic.

My last post is my true view of the situation. I'm just very defensive of Israel...

[Kaine for Senate '18]

There is a small rabbit in a room, surrounded by 12 angry, snarling wolves.  The wolves all pounce on the rabbit, but when the scuffle is over, the rabbit always comes out alive, no matter how many times the wolves attack it.

What does this metaphor mean?

[Franzl]

There is a small rabbit in a room, surrounded by 12 angry, snarling wolves.  The wolves all pounce on the rabbit, but when the scuffle is over, the rabbit always comes out alive, no matter how many times the wolves attack it.

What does this metaphor mean?

That the rabbit is pretty damn lucky, and...ummmm....irrelevant?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

LOL@that analogy. More like a pit bull being attacked by a bunch of chihuahuas.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

There is a small rabbit in a room, surrounded by 12 angry, snarling wolves.  The wolves all pounce on the rabbit, but when the scuffle is over, the rabbit always comes out alive, no matter how many times the wolves attack it.

What does this metaphor mean?

That the rabbit is pretty damn lucky, and...ummmm....irrelevant?

You're right about the rabbit, but this is a relevant metaphor, once you figure it out.