Northern Ireland General Discussion

[Filuwaúrdjan]

21% of Catholics in Northern Ireland support unionism.

Potentially voting to maintain the status quo on 'just want to grill' grounds is not the same as 'supporting Unionism'.

[CumbrianLefty]

Historically the UUP at least did have a few Catholic members, but its fair to say they were generally regarded (by both sides) as somewhat eccentric.

[Cassius]

From a few weeks ago, but I haven't seen this story posted yet:

https://twitter.com/Kilsally/status/1600551628301647907

The DUP acting like sore losers after coming in second place in the last election can't be helping them, let alone Northern Ireland as a whole.

‘Experts’ and other ‘men of peace’ have been engaged in wishful thinking along these lines for the last six years and nothing significant has eventuated. The same will be the case now.

[Continential]

When it comes to a "united Ireland":

The paedophilia scandals have destroyed the Roman Catholic Church's moral authority across the world and unionists can always remind Ulster voters that the Irish republican leadership were close adherents to said protectors of perverts for many decades.

Will be "interesting times", in the Chinese sense.

brtd

I'm not a Tory. I'm an anti-socialist centrist.

Famed Tory BRTD.

[Continential]

21% of Catholics in Northern Ireland support unionism.

Potentially voting to maintain the status quo on 'just want to grill' grounds is not the same as 'supporting Unionism'.

Well, the status quo is unionism, so if the unionists decided to attack nationalists for being close to the Catholic Church like Jolly Slugg suggested, I'm sure that many soft unionist  Catholics would reconsider their positions.

Historically the UUP at least did have a few Catholic members, but its fair to say they were generally regarded (by both sides) as somewhat eccentric.

The Alliance is to a large extent unionist, yes? I consider the Alliance to be a unionist party even if there are some members who support reunification.

[(no subject)]

does a google - https://twitter.com/brtd1989 ?

(by the way, a male ancestor on my late Mum's side was transported from Ireland to Australia for stealing a coat).

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

When it comes to a "united Ireland":

The paedophilia scandals have destroyed the Roman Catholic Church's moral authority across the world and unionists can always remind Ulster voters that the Irish republican leadership were close adherents to said protectors of perverts for many decades.

Will be "interesting times", in the Chinese sense.

brtd

I don't think even BRTD thinks the situation in Northern Ireland is "really about" religion to quite this extent.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Well, the status quo is unionism...

No, the status quo is (frequently suspended) compulsory power-sharing within the framework of the United Kingdom. Unionism is something else and isn't a term that can be used loosely.

[(no subject)]

Eh, Sinead O'Connor was vindicated about the Catholic Church, though.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Eh, Sinead O'Connor was vindicated about the Catholic Church, though.

Noted Ulster Unionist [checks smudged writing on hand] Siobhan McConnell

[YL]

The Alliance is to a large extent unionist, yes? I consider the Alliance to be a unionist party even if there are some members who support reunification.

Alliance is not a Unionist party.  It is fundamentally an anti-sectarianism party and its members and supporters hold a range of views on the constitutional issue; I suspect that pragmatic support for the status quo, combined with irritation at the disruption to the status quo caused by Brexit, is the median position in the party, but that is not what is meant by "Unionism" in a Northern Ireland context.

[CumbrianLefty]

Mentioned by me in the elections section because I couldn't find this thread at the time - the local polls scheduled for next May have been moved back to the 18th of that month, to avoid clashing with the new monarch's coronation a fortnight earlier.

Which does also maybe increase the possibility of the mainland doing the same in that regard.

[Epaminondas]

From a few weeks ago, but I haven't seen this story posted yet:

https://twitter.com/Kilsally/status/1600551628301647907

The DUP acting like sore losers after coming in second place in the last election can't be helping them, let alone Northern Ireland as a whole.

I've lived close to the border. In fact I crossed over it only a few days ago - absolutely empty as usual. Closing it is just not possible without some form of military intervention.

The 200+ crossings are too many and the border cuts through private property which cannot be seized outside of martial law, which for obvious reasons would not serve the purpose of either unionists or conservatives.

This is all saber rattling to gain leverage over the UE, and should be ignored like the tantrum it is.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Closing it with military intervention wouldn't work for anything either, except letting people check whether they calculated their mortar trajectories correctly.

[LabourJersey]

The Alliance is to a large extent unionist, yes? I consider the Alliance to be a unionist party even if there are some members who support reunification.

Alliance is not a Unionist party.  It is fundamentally an anti-sectarianism party and its members and supporters hold a range of views on the constitutional issue; I suspect that pragmatic support for the status quo, combined with irritation at the disruption to the status quo caused by Brexit, is the median position in the party, but that is not what is meant by "Unionism" in a Northern Ireland context.

I find Alliance to be an interesting party because of what you're describing. Is it fair to says that its supporters are younger than those of SF/DUP etc, or does it cut across the age divides?

[Oryxslayer]

The Alliance is to a large extent unionist, yes? I consider the Alliance to be a unionist party even if there are some members who support reunification.

Alliance is not a Unionist party.  It is fundamentally an anti-sectarianism party and its members and supporters hold a range of views on the constitutional issue; I suspect that pragmatic support for the status quo, combined with irritation at the disruption to the status quo caused by Brexit, is the median position in the party, but that is not what is meant by "Unionism" in a Northern Ireland context.

I find Alliance to be an interesting party because of what you're describing. Is it fair to says that its supporters are younger than those of SF/DUP etc, or does it cut across the age divides?

Yes for the DUP/UUP. No for SF. In general, the younger generation recognizes that life in Northern Ireland at present sucks, and really want to move on. Currently those who came from (formerly) Unionist families are more likely to look towards the Alliance for a non-sectarian answer to the regions stagnation.

 SF has been good as seeing the same problems as Alliance - just more intense given historical economic imbalances between communities - and promising the larger Catholic youth population that joining the Republic will solve all the problems. Which makes one wonder if a reckoning is going to take place this decade. SF appears poised to form a future Dublin government off a similar youth-driven desire for reform, this time boosting a party perceived to be a comparably left alternative to the political establishment. It also helps SF that a large chunk of the Dail electorate don't remember the Troubles and perceive a change caused by  both geographic and temporal separation from those events. Actual government power means electoral expectations that likely won't be met if the government spends all their capital on the border question, and the polling lead could be blown in SF campaign on said legacy nationalism and not the reforms and modernizations desired. However,  focusing attention of the Republics problems will betray their Northern compatriots who would expect support and rewards from a SF led coalition, especially since Northerners have an oversized presence within the party thanks to historical developments. 

[Torrain]

The Alliance is to a large extent unionist, yes? I consider the Alliance to be a unionist party even if there are some members who support reunification.

Alliance is not a Unionist party.  It is fundamentally an anti-sectarianism party and its members and supporters hold a range of views on the constitutional issue; I suspect that pragmatic support for the status quo, combined with irritation at the disruption to the status quo caused by Brexit, is the median position in the party, but that is not what is meant by "Unionism" in a Northern Ireland context.

I find Alliance to be an interesting party because of what you're describing. Is it fair to says that its supporters are younger than those of SF/DUP etc, or does it cut across the age divides?

Yes for the DUP/UUP. No for SF. In general, the younger generation recognizes that life in Northern Ireland at present sucks, and really want to move on. Currently those who came from (formerly) Unionist families are more likely to look towards the Alliance for a non-sectarian answer to the regions stagnation.

This I can corroborate with some anecdotal experience. Family and many of their friends are from longstanding Unionist families, who stuck with the UUP until recently (too moderate for DUP), but largely defected to Alliance around 2019.

[EastAnglianLefty]

On the other side of the equation, you can see the Alliance's lack of appeal to the Nationalist community as a non-tactical vote in their weak presence west of the Bann. In the 2019 locals, they won one seat in Omagh (where the SDLP incumbents ran as independents, splitting the vote and keeping the Alliance in long enough to pick up transfers); two seats in Derry (both east of the Foyle, where the Protestant population is much higher and where there were Nationalist transfers up for grabs) and one seat in Coleraine (mostly east of the Bann anyway, and with an overwhelmingly unionist electorate.)

[Frodo]

I don't know if this was covered elsewhere, but Sinn Feinn is continuing to make gains at the local level:

Sinn Fein wins in Northern Ireland local elections, urges return of government

[CumbrianLefty]

The local election results in NI (including a few possible glitches in counting) are covered in the 2023 UK Local Elections thread in the International Elections section.

[Frodo]

These are mainly ceremonial prizes with no real power, but they are highly visible reminders of the strides Sinn Fein has made in recent years in Northern Ireland:

Sinn Fein take most top positions on Northern Ireland councils after historic election

[Frodo]

Momentum on restoring powersharing in Northern Ireland ‘seems to have ebbed’

[LabourJersey]

Bumping this since NI has a pretty eventful Thursday coming up: a massive public service strike and the deadline for some sort of power sharing agreement at Stormont (though my understanding is that this deadline can be pushed back).

Genuinely curious to hear more on these from our NI posters.

[EastAnglianLefty]

The strike is the bigger news, as realistically there isn't any reason for the DUP to cave now when they haven't already, and Heaton-Harris has made it fairly clear he's not going to call a new election.

We've also got snow this week, so if it gets heavier towards the end of the week then the fact the gritting lorries won't be operating could cause a fair amount of additional disruption. Forecast doesn't suggest that at the moment, but it's a possibility.

[CumbrianLefty]

I think it is now a fairly safe prediction that nothing will happen as far as restoring Stormont rule goes until the next Westminster election, which could still be nearly a year away.