Ireland General Discussion

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Whooaaahhh.... First I heard about this. You leave the country for a few weeks and the sh**t hits the fan.

Michael D for the leadership!

(Or Tommy Broughan, now that would be an interesting choice.)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

It looks like Eamonn Gilmore... Gully = not happy, Thinks labour should try someone from that uncivilized backwater outside the pale. Or Tommy Broughan, someone who actually bring something new. Gilmore = Rabbite Part Deux. At least Burton and McManus have the "OMG A WOMAN!11!1" factor

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I agree that Broughan would not do too well... he's way too North Dublin for any real success, but to be honest all I see is a field of mediocre in front of me.. Remember the most successful Labour leader ever was based in Kerry North, another Dublin Southite is not what the labour party needs. How about a long shot..... Brian O'Shea? Jack Wall (well.. outside Dublin)? Or actually coming to think of, Willie Penrose would be a good-ish choice.

Burton is too much like Teacher who thinks you have to speak at a rather simple level and constantly rehash the same point before it goes in - a point which often doesn't lead anywhere at all. Actually that's the problem with Irish politics... too many damn Teachers and lawyers. And Fianna Fail, obviously. And kids in Celtic hoodies who write up the 'Ra on walls, And the "Tiocfaidh ar la" crowd, and the Craggy Islanders and the Corruption and the Pariochalism, Localism and so on...

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Since last post Eamonn Gilmore (Lab; Dun Laoghaire) has been elected leader of the labour party in a non-contest. ;(

So thats yet another failure for the Labour party come 2012.. I can't really see what Gilmore brings to the table outside of Dun Laoghaire and Dublin South where I imagine they might gain seats from the Greens depending on how things turn out (Here in DS labour would have probably won a seat if not for the disaster which was running two candidates). Again consolidating Labour's image as a "Dublin" Party.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

He has said that they will fight the next election as an independent party not allying with anyone else and set the rather ambitious target of 30 seats.

... Which is five years away (even If the greens decide to catipulate Bertie still has enough of a majority; thus my ever growing conspiracy theory towards why the Greens are in goverment - Scape goats for new Enviormental taxes to be levied due to an increasing deficit - which is due to the decline in the Housing market.)

Of course what do Labour plan to do after 2012 even if they get 30 seats? I assume now Gilmore is going to take a "wait and see" approach. And It's hard to see where Labour could pick up an extra 10 - perhaps a barrier on 5 at most - and that is if no-one retires.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Interesting that in England, Scotland, and now Ireland, the respective Labour parties have all changed leaders in non-contests. Rhodri Morgan and Mark Durkan watch out!

It would be very surprising if there's no contest when Morgan retires (most likely in 2009). Rumoured candidates include:

Carwyn Jones (Bridgend)
Andrew Davies (Swansea West)
Edwina Hart  (Gower)
Huw Lewis (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Leighton Andrews (Rhondda)
Jane Davidson (Pontypridd)

It'd be very surprising if Lewis and Andrews both run, ditto some of the other "candidates".

You had to ruin the Atmosphere, man....

In my mini-Conspiracy theory I should have also said "and make Fianna Fail an excuse to weasel out of their promise to cut the top rate of Income tax" but hey it's not like Fianna Fail to make Sh*t up in their manifesto, now is it? (Yes, Yes, I know all parties do it, but FF have a peculiar history..)

I'm still amazed that Dick Spring didn't decide to go for the FG + DL option immediatly, hell both Lab + DL got over 40 seats in that election. Now together they're only on 20... (and there are very few actual gains, a second seat in Wicklow, Dun Laoghaire - maybe, a seat in Dublin South, both Tipperary's, Kerry and Louth... Possible in level of likelyhood. They will probably lose Galway West if Michael D retires and Waterford if Brian O'Shea does likewise...)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Kerry is likely to be merged into one five-seat constituency and Louth is to gain a seat iirc. But the big problem for Labour here is that alot of their traditional vote has gone to SF. In Kerry also alot of that vote seemed to be personal; so what hope labour without Dick Spring or the Moyninhans?

Look at 1992 and where Labour gained, not just in the particular obvious places but Clare, Laois-Offaly, Sligo-Leitrim, Two seats in Dublin North East (Both gains).. they lost all but one of those (Broughan's seat in DNE) in 1997 and have never came close to getting them back, and almost certainly have no chance now.

Of course you are correct that alot of Labour's vote depend on how well the Greens do in Goverment (or rather; how well they do in Goverment in regards to satisfying their 'base'.)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Sadly all we can say is wait and see (for another five years...   ). The Greens may turn out to a success after all; or maybe they will get more transfers from FF but lose their labour-FG transfers.. who knows?

And yes there should be more five seaters. Especially in North Dublin which at times seems to be completely gerrymandered to benefit FF (and to a lesser extent; FG - who always do badly there, at least in recent election). Oh, and bring back six seaters too - One Donegal constituency, and one Roscommon-Sligo-Leitrim constituency would be good.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Why don't you guys abolish gerrymandering?

Electoral constituencies are multi-member and decided upon by an independent panel. While these facts don't necessarily preclude the possibility of gerrymandering occuring, they do reduce it's likelihood and potential effectiveness. I wouldn't accept that gerrymandering (as practised in the US) is actually happening here.

Thus the "seems to be" in my original post. (Though you have to admit that alot of the current districts benefit FF, especially at SF's expense funnily enough.)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Why don't you guys abolish gerrymandering?

Electoral constituencies are multi-member and decided upon by an independent panel. While these facts don't necessarily preclude the possibility of gerrymandering occuring, they do reduce it's likelihood and potential effectiveness. I wouldn't accept that gerrymandering (as practised in the US) is actually happening here.

Thus the "seems to be" in my original post. (Though you have to admit that alot of the current districts benefit FF, especially at SF's expense funnily enough.)

Not so sure.

It would probably have taken a concerted effort at gerrymandering to increase the number of Dublin SF TDs on the last election numbers while still working with mainly 3-seater constituencies. Plus, II'd imagine it very difficult work gerrymandering Dublin to either the benefit or detriment of FF simply redrawing constituencies without actually changing the actual size of the seats (i.e. more 3 or 5 seaters or whatever).

By my comment I was referring to the fact that in as far as North Dublin is concerned, the commission love of three seaters is screwing SF over (not that I actually thinks a bad thing in a results way; the process is bad though, obviously) - this may change as the commission is looking into uniting Dublin North Central and Dublin North East into a 5 seater 'Dublin East', with some of DNE being broken off to join Dublin North, which would then become 5 seats aswell. There is definetly one SF quota in "Dublin East". And if the constituency commission brought back six seaters than SF would odds on to gain at least one if not two in Donegal and possibly one in a united Sligo-Roscommon-Leitrim constituency. There is also a significant SF vote in Dublin North West and Dublin Central, with great SF potential in Dublin West (Though I suspect that Joe Higgins takes alot of their votes; but I cannae be sure of that) - Turn the Northside map from about 6-7 three\four seaters into a couple of five seaters and you'd get a couple of SF seats.

Most southside (well, south Eastside) constituencies that are five seaters would NEVER elect a Sinn Fein candidate, including my own.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

By my comment I was referring to the fact that in as far as North Dublin is concerned, the commission love of three seaters is screwing SF over (not that I actually thinks a bad thing in a results way; the process is bad though, obviously) - this may change as the commission is looking into uniting Dublin North Central and Dublin North East into a 5 seater 'Dublin East', with some of DNE being broken off to join Dublin North, which would then become 5 seats aswell. There is definetly one SF quota in "Dublin East". And if the constituency commission brought back six seaters than SF would odds on to gain at least one if not two in Donegal and possibly one in a united Sligo-Roscommon-Leitrim constituency. There is also a significant SF vote in Dublin North West and Dublin Central, with great SF potential in Dublin West (Though I suspect that Joe Higgins takes alot of their votes; but I cannae be sure of that) - Turn the Northside map from about 6-7 three\four seaters into a couple of five seaters and you'd get a couple of SF seats.

Most southside (well, south Eastside) constituencies that are five seaters would NEVER elected a Sinn Fein candidate, including my own.

Yep, true.

It is though unfortunately beyond the powers of the commission to play with anything other than 3, 4 or 5-seaters.

Really? Must have been misinformed. - I wonder when that was made into law (Tullymander? - though it seems to be alot earlier?) in the early days of the state there were eight seat constituencies in places like Dublin North. With PR-STV we don't need such a decentralized system as we have in the present.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Really? Must have been misinformed. - I wonder when that was made into law (Tullymander? - though it seems to be alot earlier?) in the early days of the state there were eight seat constituencies in places like Dublin North. With PR-STV we don't need such a decentralized system as we have in the present.

It's actually a legislative requirement, though for the life of me I can't think which Act it is at the moment. Will have to look up some stuff.

The record BTW is a 9-seater, which was Galway from the 4th to the 8th Dáil.
Since the 13th Dáil, all constituencies have been either 3,4 or 5-seaters.

Galway - always going for FF since 1922... and I like Galway City (Despite my earlier sig copied from Uncyclopedia).

An interesting utterly unrelated question here for you Jas to do with the previous referendum on citizenship - which passed ridiculously and to as little fanfair and debate as possible (80-20 in favour of reform): What county recorded the highest and lowest votes in favour? Admittely here we're only talking about a 10 percent difference but the results surprised me quite a lot. (Another interesting aside, the county most in favour had the highest turnout, while those opposed had higher than usual turnouts.)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

http://www.electoralgeography.com/en/countries/i/ireland/2004-referendum-ireland.html

Unsurprisingly Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown was the county council with the highest level of opposition - but passed unusually highly in the other Dublin counties. But as for county level you were right about Sligo, but this I'm trying to figure out (Opposition percentage in bold):

Sligo County 68.95% 73.36% 26.64%
Then..
Donegal County 62.22% 74.65% 25.35%
And..
Leitrim County 75.70% 76.29% 23.71%

But then in the exact same region:
Longford County 71.29% 84.37% 15.63% - lowest level of oppositon.

What happened there

[Tetro Kornbluth]

http://www.electoralgeography.com/en/countries/i/ireland/2004-referendum-ireland.html

Unsurprisingly Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown was the county council with the highest level of opposition - but passed unusually highly in the other Dublin counties. But as for county level you were right about Sligo, but this I'm trying to figure out (Opposition percentage in bold):

Sligo County 68.95% 73.36% 26.64%
Then..
Donegal County 62.22% 74.65% 25.35%
And..
Leitrim County 75.70% 76.29% 23.71%

But then in the exact same region:
Longford County 71.29% 84.37% 15.63% - lowest level of oppositon.

What happened there

Well the most academic answer I can give you is that Longford is just wierd.
Actually, I'm very surprised by the relatively high support in Donegal, I would've thought they'd be one of the most opposed.

The various referenda are probably the best actual measure of the relative liberalism (or otherwise) across the country, given the remarkable absense of ideology in electoral politics.

True. The Abortion referendums are amble examples of that. (In 2002, only four counties voted for 'no' - happily for us it happened to be in counties where most of the people happened to live. The constituency-by-constituency results show this even more closely - it's on the site of the previous link under referendum - 2002.)

EDIT: Also local election results; especially in Dublin are quite very revealing (and show an unusual - for Ireland - level of Class-based voting). I just wish I knew about this link before starting my Redistricting project on International board.

http://www.electionsireland.org/results/local/council.cfm?election=2004L&area=

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Significant anniversary in Irish history today, it's 400 years since the Flight of the Earls.

And today the current recognised leader of the Gael is also facing difficult times. Though Mr. Ahern will probably decide not to flee the country, á la O'Neill and O'Donnell, he is undergoing a difficult questioning process at the Mahon Tribunal. Today was his second day before the Tribunal answering questions about his personal finances from the early 90s. No killer blow yet, but he's clearly unable to paint a picture which will satisfy all. And it's not over yet, Day 3 in the hotseat will follow shortly. Watch this space...

I can't doubt that even the biggest FF hack (except possibly Eoghan Harris) can not help but admit that this is the most convienent outbreak of amnesia I can ever remember outside of questions which begin "so where were you two last night?"

We also learnt today while Bertie Ahern was minister for Finance he didn't seem to know much details about how wills operate (as apparently he left some mysterious-gotten cash inside his girlfriend's bank account and not his, because "in case he died suddenly and she could get the money".)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Wow.. I didn't expect Green % to be that high, or maybe It's too early for anyone to make a serious judgement yet. As I said already should the goverment not collapse I suspect that whatever votes the greens will lose from the "sellout" crowd they will gain more in second preferences from FF voters. (Perhaps getting alot of those which ATM go to the PDs; which the below poll doesn't give me much pessissism that they are anything but defunct.)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I love the "OMG TEH GOVERMENT ALMOST LOST HOW DARE TDs BE INDEPENDENT!!111" reaction.

Which is why:
a) Democracy is really a joke in Ireland.
b) The Parliamentary system is alot of bollocks really.

At least now I have more to watch the blood letting and theatre Mahon Tribunal continue without the media thinking it somehow irrelevant.. Now come on, greenies, time to show some backbone.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I love the "OMG TEH GOVERMENT ALMOST LOST HOW DARE TDs BE INDEPENDENT!!111" reaction.

Which is why:
a) Democracy is really a joke in Ireland.
b) The Parliamentary system is alot of bollocks really.

Considerably stronger language than I'd use, but I have sympathy with these points. The fused executive-legislature in particular bothers me; that and the Seanad's neutered state.

At least now I have more to watch the blood letting and theatre Mahon Tribunal continue without the media thinking it somehow irrelevant.. Now come on, greenies, time to show some backbone.

The Greens have proven they will hold firm. They have now firmly nailed themselves to Bertie and only a smoking gun or the next Mahon report would give them reason to exit.

The decision to bring them into government though clearly paid off this week - otherwise the Government would have found huge difficulty in winning the confidence vote (and would almost certainly have lost the Shannon vote).

Sadly I'd have to agree about the Greens - funny before the election I was thinking of joining the Young Greens.. not a chance of that happening now. Perhaps they should have stuck two minute ads on buddhist meditation.

As for the original point; I'm not even sure that Ireland needs a symbolic executor - but having an obvious leader is such a plus point for the intellectually lazy to focus on (also known as "the Meeja".) One thing about the 2007 Green Party Manifesto which alot of the document the Greens forgot about when going into goverment was a plan to reduce the number TDs to 120 (GOOD LUCK) - Ah well, the more I go on the more I tempted towards Radicalism.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Sadly I'd have to agree about the Greens - funny before the election I was thinking of joining the Young Greens.. not a chance of that happening now. Perhaps they should have stuck two minute ads on buddhist meditation.

As for the original point; I'm not even sure that Ireland needs a symbolic executor - but having an obvious leader is such a plus point for the intellectually lazy to focus on (also known as "the Meeja".) One thing about the 2007 Green Party Manifesto which alot of the document the Greens forgot about when going into goverment was a plan to reduce the number TDs to 120 (GOOD LUCK) - Ah well, the more I go on the more I tempted towards Radicalism.

120 TDs - oh no! Then the quality of the cabinet would surely inevitably decline. If the government had only 60-odd TDs instead of 80-odd (and I use 'odd' intentionally) then goodness knows how many more gormless so-and-soes end up making decisions on educaton and whatnot.

Yes clearly with only 120TDs we would miss some great contributors to democracy such as, say, Michael Mulcahy, Cyprian Brady, Barry Andrews, John Curran, Charlie Flanagan (see I can be biased against FG too. ), All the Waterford TDs, et al.

Wait a minute, what am I talking about - this is Ireland - where your level of political mediocrity is more likely to get you elected. Being a FF TD is a pretty sweet job.. 100,000 a year often for doing near fuck all except being yes men to the goverment but because of the "Keltik Tigah" you won't ever lose your seat unless you're an idiot.. I mean just look at, well, Michael Mulcahy, Cyprian Brady (oooh.. he's on the radio now), Barry Andrews, etc...

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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I never said they weren't positive; just that we should aspire to more than that. It depends on whether we wish to see ourselves more as a society driven by ideals or purely by economic concerns; all goverments over the past 150 years or so have chosen the latter. Though personality from experience I think it's waste of time to have about half of the student population in education after the age of 14 (to pick a rough estimate).. and if we keep the current situation as it is I don't think employers will complain too much on missing out learning Intregal Calculus or Bismarck's Foreign Policy.

But I don't think have such an industrial like system of Education is good for Children or inevitably for Society as a whole. Also those Literacy and Numeracy statistics you state are very relative; how do you define those terms? (I not saying that Ireland has a bad standard here or anything; but statistics in this tend to vary alot on criteria.)

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Not Directly. But in a much more subtle indirect way I would so say.

Let me put this way, each class in a school has a structure and that structure is pretty unchanged from the age of 4 to 18 in the Irish system. That structure is there is a teacher who is the centre of the class who is supposed to be font of the required curriculum (more on that later..) and then there are the children who rarely speak and "recieve" knowledge from the teacher, who generally rewards them somehow if they do well and absconds them if they don't. Now as this is seen as the "natural" way of teaching it may not be seen as a big deal, but there are assumptions in this method here which are very important to point out and it is this that is most often imparted in school as opposed to the "official" curriculum (Most Children forget roughly 80% iirc of all the content they learn in a class once it's over. But here I refer to is the "Hidden Curriculum" - what is learnt without even being recognized; the sort of training you get sitting in a similiar position for 14 years straight.)

1) Authority Figures, like Parents (Here Teachers) are genuinely seen to be the holders of knowledge, knowledge and education is what the teacher gives you.
2) In schools there are textbooks which give out this knowledge; which creates a division between the learning in "School" and "non-school" learning. Textbooks are useless when learning things outside of the school enviorment
3) All Questions have "right" and "wrong" answers which are not to be doubted as they held by the authority figure to be truth; accepting the "right" answer (regardless of whether it is 2+2=4 or to be more nebelous, a good story.) without question is the name of the game. ("The first thing you learn in school is to learn how to lie - HL Mencken) Those who are wrong; perhaps because they are just not interested in the subject or just don't have academic ability in it are often punished - a system where praise (and thus Status; especially towards ones parents who love to have straight A grade child) and derision is often given out by how much you accept what the teacher says. So it's no surprise that the least gifted (or for that matter, the most gifted) get alienated from the system.
4) Our civilisation, which is based on Questions, is not even taught in schools. It's an Authoritian system of knowledge driven mainly by an industrial set up. (Ever noticed how Schools and Offices are often alike? Or Schools and Prisons for that matter?)

Now of course here I'm really referring to the first years of Education which are formative of the rest of Ireland's formal system.

But add to this the Curriculum, We both know about the pointless endavour of Irish and the Cultural\Political reasons behind it. But let's look more closely at how each subject (and that's another thing - that division is totally arbirtary. Another thing you learn in School, History is History, Maths is Maths, English is English, Mechanacial engineering is Mechanacial engineering. And never the twain shall meet. I'm a believer in the idea to have true understanding of anything you need to understand it's history. But this form of Education I'm referring to how has nothing to do with Understanding) is taught and what is taught.

- Maths: Actually I think in the Irish system the teaching of Maths is one of the better things about it as shows coginitive ability at abstract taught and unlike most another subjects can't really be bluffed at an exam. But here again comes into my point about the division of ideas; in Maths education we never shown why Calculus? The idea of learning is divorced from function; while I'm not a fan of the idea that education should be "relevant" in Mediaspeak (in other words, made fit into a way which suits students who cram for exams) I just think that this is yet another example of the idea the system alienates students; many of whom actually are interested in knowing stuff. Not to mention that Maths must be continued till age 18; against the interests of most students. Even from the functional POV this is mass Stupidity; if Children show no ability at Maths why keep them on after say 12 once numerical ability becomes obvious; will they repent once they hit Algebra and decide to become Engineers? Don't be silly.

- History: This is a particular issue of mine; let's take the Junior Cert History Syllabus I did back in 2003 - or to be more precise the exam itself (The paper is here: http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2003/JC004ALP1EV.pdf) to keep things simple I gave I kept to the essay questions:

Example A: Write one of three following personal accounts:
- A lord or lady of a Medevil Castle.
- A farmer in Pre-Christian Ireland
- A named Religious reformer.

This is a form of biography; but in the end of Trivial biography. Actually that's 80% of Irish schools teach is trivia. When discussing Luther or Pre-Christian Ireland the textbooks usually went into fairly detailed (for 15 year olds) information about personal lives; but they failed to show why these things matterd; why they should be taught; what is their impact today In other words; it created a totally artifical division between history and the present. The fractured nature of the curriculum (inevitable in such a short space of time) makes this issue even worse. In other words, the majority of information students learn about history is school is mainly the gather of trivia; such as say the lives of Lords and ladies - purely an academic interest - without even the idea of context. I believe History matters too much to be divorced from the modern day world like it is in school (and I won't go into how school textbooks often try to justify Irish Nationalism.. it's not that their wrong per se; but rather that they are ideological at all. But then again I'm against textbooks)

Now I'm running out of space; and I want to watch the Rugby. And I've even explained my starting point. I told you I could bore for Ireland on this topic. If you to learn what I actually stand for and put the above in a much more coherent manner that there is Neil Postman's book Teaching as a subversive activity - 40 years old but still very, very relevant. And to be brief, here is what I am for: The Socratic Method

[Tetro Kornbluth]

South Africa won.. Yay!

Now you may be wondering, But Gully what does that have to do with Consumerism?.. Well.. Quite a bit.

The decisions we make as adults are conditioned by the events and surroundings of our childhood; of which School is clearly an important part (but how important is difficult to determine) and as I have shown imo the two most vital things one learns in school is 1) how to adapt to the social structure; a classroom is like an office, an industrial plant, etc in it's hierachial structure those that succeed are often those who play best to the system (not neccesarily the most intelligent; not even always the most book smart) and 2) the distinction between what is important and what is not is based on trivia (such as the lives of Lord and ladies of manors) and not in any way connected to the tangiable world outside.

Therefore this feeds into consumerism and alienation felt often by those of lesser class as well; okay I don't think it's the main factor for the rise of consumerism or alienation but it does exist. Any system which rewards the ability to think inside the system is almost incestuous; outside ideas are dangerous.. and as schools don't teach the ability to question the world around the students or even engage in it in a serious way then it creates an enviorment of distance between "intellectualism" and "the real world"; which is seen to be highly desirable and whose status in which is often marked by material goods.

Here I quote Postman twice, as he is more eloquent than me on this topic:

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And many more here: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Neil_Postman#Teaching_as_a_Subversive_Activity_.281969.29

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You are making the fatal (and very common) mistake of confusing elections with Democracy; Democracy is about debate and there is almost none of that in Ireland right now. The business of elections is dominated by Media machines and other Financial interests which often try and shy away from what is known as "The issues" and when "The issues" are confronted by any party it usually ends that all the parties nearly speak from the same hymn sheet.

Watch Questions & Answers much? Then you know what a joke "debate" in this democracy consists of. And if we don't have debate and discussion among the populace about where we are going and what is our function as a society and how it should be ordered than all we doing is handing power over to (an often morally bankrupt) Political class which wields power as is it's will. Which is what has happened all over the western world; and is growing more and more Authoritian. And whatever opposition there is tends to come from extremism (of both left and right) and from Waco-type conspiracists.

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You are again making another mistake; using high culture as a barometer. When I meant culture I refererred in general to what the average person does with his life outside of the parameters of work, etc - what does (s)he do, what is his\her reason to be and how is this shown in a mass context?. A book by Jordan outsold all the man Booker entries combined in the UK; should I don't think that Enright entirely defines what I am describing.

What I am describing though is mainly RTE and the tabloids and the aforementioned consumerism, and no I don't try to be some patrician who looks down upon the habits of the plebs as inferior to my own (actually that last bit of that second Postman quote is very relevant here.) and I would not consider myself the most "cultured" person myself; far from it. But there are certain cultures which are compitable with democracy and those that are not; Ireland's present values (or even historical ones; replace consumerism with "The Catholic Church") Imo are not compitable to the true idea of Democracy.

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It's Meritocratic only in theory. Anyone whose ever been to a Rugby school on the Southside of Dublin can tell you this easily. Grind Schools, anyone? (Which I despise as they are the opposite of education; though I'm not complaining about how I got a B in leaving cert Classical studies thanks to attending one. Hey, if the system is there to be abused and you have the means..)

Anyway in terms of Class most of the real problems already begin once the baby is out of the womb; never mind schooling.

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It only tests the ability to regurgitate trivia. Which is sometimes mistaken for intelligence.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

God that take a long time to reply.. Before I begin I want to say one thing:

I hate the Sunday Independent. That is all.

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Good Questions. Especially the first one; to which I say "us" (whoever we are), my attitude to state education is somewhat ambivilant. On the one hand it creates a near-monopoly of information that is transmitted to future generations; on the other hand it is a guarentee of at least certain standards (at least in theory) of literacy, numeracy, etc which kept. Ideally though schools should be run by parents who each have a collective decision in the running of the school; or at least by committed individuals. Though I admit that achieving this is near impossible in a modern day context.

As for what Ideals I would to see spread; that's simple: Democracy, Debate, an awareness of the world around them, a place where pupils are 'trained' not just in functions but in the art of being human (however you define it) - which is why I am not a fan of this distinction in the first place between "School" and "not School". Should I somehow (There will be a day) out there find a palatable woman to inseminate and have children I hope to home school them.

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No doubt utterly true; just I think I often finds that having late adolscents in schools who simply just don't want to be there just holds everyone back. I don't have a clue how to deal with this though (*NOT* segregrating classes in terms of "intelligence" though, whatever that is.)

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I would agree with that being a very rough guide; but somewhat accurate. Though English in second level education is all about the art of bullshit. Which as you see, I am expert on.

If we must have some sort of standard (and here it's probably a neccesary undesirable) then at least it should be applied by continous assessment and not the old fashioned "one big exam" method.

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Yes sort of; perhaps I didn't make this clear enough. Children are meant to accept what the teacher says as undoubted truth; never learning how to question where that conclussion came from. Not to mention that most of these answers are rather superficial anyway (Why do nouns matter anyway? Grammar is just a function of expressing ideas; not an idea in itself. Though admittely the Irish system has shied away from Grammar recently.)

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See the above point about unquestioned leaders and where the answer comes from. Textbooks especially need to questioned. How much distortions are in an average school history textbook?

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Perhaps not Right or wrong in a concrete sense but it still makes a distinction between "good" and "bad" answers and the role of role learning in all this. This is at it's at worst in Honours Irish where students just learn off essays (and pretty much do the same in English) except with varations for certain question wording, etc. Anyway, Getting back to Postman - "All answer should lead to another Question" and perhaps more pointedly "Children start school as Question marks and leave as full stops". Knowing that the Battle of Hastings happened in 1066 between the armies of William of Normandy and Harold Godwission is just trivia when not provided with sufficient context; the question that must asked is why? Why is event X important today; what does it mean for my life. That's the most important thing here; not achieving some abstract academic standard but achieving understanding on how to understand.

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The Scientific method is based upon questioning; and that is the basis of our modern society (That is the technology discovered by said method.) and the same can be extended for the social sciences aswell - especially since the start of the last century. Which is about providing understanding and causes much more than the old victorian methods based upon bogus ideas like Evolutionism and the Great men theory. Which were clearly societal prejudices.

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Slight Hyperbole. But one does learn to accept authority of sorts in schools.

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I agree; though here I should point out as a member of the class of 2006 I was the first to pass the new history syllabus with it's research project to be completed as an outside assignment to be finished by easter. So Ha-Ha.

Strongly, Strongly agree on that last bit about ideology though. Though having an ideology should not remove ambiguity from the replace; a common pet habit among certain left-wing historians I can think of.

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Anyone who has ever education in Ireland (and I imagine elsewhere) has seen the following scene: End of lecture\class, Lecturer\teachers says "Any Questions?", Silence for two minutes, Everybody leaves, afterwards you meet people who ask you questions which could have been answered earlier. I suspect this is a learned behaviour; not just in school but the way move people from a very early age live very passive lives (especially us; I mean I've spend nearly a month on this forum and I joined 11 months ago.) and can only be tackled in the early stages of education; A method of continous questioning ala the Socratic Method from a very early age would be a solution to defeating stage fright imo.

I'll continue my reply in due time..

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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Because:
1) School as it is trains you for the patterns of life you will gain as an adult
2) School as it is, is based around not questioning but accepting said ideas (and fitting it into examinations.)

Right now in Ireland the dominant way of thinking is Consumerism; especially in certain areas near where I live (Ever been to Dundrum? It's hell) while it used to be the Catholic Church. By accepting certain ideas as fact it doesn't prepare to pupils to challenge the accepted order of things around the world. Which is why the school system supports consumerism, at least in an indirect manner (not too dissimiliar to way even secular schools managed in a way to support the Catholic church during it's hegemony; The Church's apparent popular collapse though is quite an interesting case study on how attitudes change and why. But that would need a post all to it's self.)

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Not from a higher truth as such as trying to make one pupil seek a higher truth - of course I don't expect that students at the age of 18 should be all knowing and ready to be the next Voltaire but a sufficient competence in questioning is what I ask for. Plus on the second half of that quote is still relevant on how pupils see themselves; the attitude of "I will be a burger flipper forever" (not too uncommon) is not exactly conjusive to a good education in the current system. Not too mention that among certain (especially working) classes it was traditional to value work above education (which in the long term was not hugely beneficial for their children, and retarded any attempt at social mobility.)

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The existence of Debate and the standard of Debate are too very different things. Unless you've lived in a cave during the election campaign I don't think you would have been free of the good old "meaningless soundbite" (Indah I found was surprisingly good at them; if only he didn't remind people of a dodgy country lawyer with a strange accent (at least around here).) That's not debate.

The Sunday Independant - It's arguements are mostly irrelevant and if not, are fantastic constructors of "left"\"Right" Strawmen. The only paper worth a damn is the Irish Times. (Surprised?) Though I admit I need to read more of the Examiner before making a judgement.

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Well I won't comment on Enright (whose book I haven't read but smacks me as the sort of fashionable literature which is based upon almost pornographic misery, read mainly by smug intellectuals but that's another matter.) or on Jordan; my point relates that in order for democracy - that is, work by the people - to work then there needs to be an active debate involving a vast majority of citizens in their country\county\town\vicinity and show that they have a stake in their own govermental destiny which goes beyond voting for some Seamus Brennan every five years. If Popular culture is filled with things not even remotely connected to people's lives then it can't serve as a functioning part of democracy. (So choosing between Enright and Jordan is not undemocratic either way; it's when such discourse dominates the media does it become an issue. Read Brave New World or 1984 much?)

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I was merely pointing out that it's not purely meritocratic. Though you are right in some ways. It's actually quite funny how Social mobility is almost never mentioned as an issue around here. IMO it was the aspirational classes which re-elected Bertie Ahern.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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Which is why the Socratic method is desirable as with a certain number of people one is likely to note a distortion. Especially the teacher. Plus I don't to teach pupils certain facts per se as how to gain facts or how facts should be viewed. I think this is time for Postman again:

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Though I must say I'm somewhat dissapointed by the shortness of your reply. Perhaps I want to be questioned in this manner; even the socratic method must go under the socratic method too. I though must leave with this comment.

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Worst. Paper. Ever.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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Ah, I left out that word "Hegemony" for a reason (and not being a Marxist is one of them). When I saw "dominant" I mean pervasive and common - of course in Ireland there are different levels of what can be considered Culture dependant on Race, Class, Location, etc. Consumerism is more dominant among certain groups (of course you will always find individual expections but in general..) than others. Often I find the media debate on it to be either a) Shrill (OMG WE R A HORRIBLE NATION, SHOPPING=NEW GOD!111 type crapola common among the "liberal" press) or b) Complacent and celebratory (The Tabloids and the Sunday Independant).. Eventually due to a varient of factors such as Economic Growth, exposure to new ideas from abroad, increased tourism, a more "liberal" viewpoint taken among the younger generation which eventually seeped into the media - the Catholic Church's power collapsed. (Arrange those causes in which ever order you think relevant; or add your own.)

Consumerism is though quite a different thing to the Church - for a start it has no obvious figurehead. One thing that is common throughout Irish History is that there is a tendency to blame the events or power brokers of the past for the problems of the present; usually for legitimate reasons but often completely overboard and never takes into account our own actions - For Example: Since Independance it was the British Empire, now it's the Church soon I imagine Neo-liberalism will be the scapegoat, as it's never our fault. My ideas do not imo indicate "brainwashing" or anything as obviously manipulative as that, rather I think School system breeds a sort of Intellectual laziness; which is at the heart of the problem of our society.

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True. But it certainly exists. As we can see by the amount of people who seem to be relishing the upcoming recession. Twats.

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I agree; but why is the Market as it is? Unlike the Libertarians you can't see the Market as some sort of independent body free from Society. (see all my above points)

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Good Question; and may I say that this should be reached by a Democratic decision.

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Well that might depend on how one define "lives". No I don't wish to sound like a snob who wishes the plebs would drop their silly bread and circuses. I'm more curious to why the bread and circuses are so popular in the first place.

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The idea I was mentioning was how the Media dominated discourse often to pursue agendas; in both books it was promoting one way of life which happened to be version of life put out by the state above "subversive" alternative ideas. If we just accept everything as it is, then it is an intellectual failure on our part. And I'm not just talking about tinkering with how the state governs things; which is what most of the debates on this forum are about in reality.

(Whatever you post next; I probably won't be able to reply to it for at least another week. But I look forward to it none the less.)