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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« on: August 23, 2007, 12:11:49 PM »
« edited: August 23, 2007, 12:13:26 PM by Jas »

Decided that it would be good to have a thread on Irish politics. There aren't really enough major stories to merit a stream of threads, but the continuous and occasional can certainly sustain one (I hope), so let's see how it goes.



Anyway, today's big story is the surprise resignation of Labour party leader, Pat Rabbitte. Though a contest was probably to be expected when his leadership would have had to come up for a vote at next years party conference, this move was not anticipated. The party's performance in the election, though around the usual return for Labour, fell below expectations and it was immediately clear that there was significant dissatisfaction within elements of the party with the electoral strategy (i.e. the alliance with Fine Gael).

Deputy Leader Liz McManus will now act as leader until the leadership election which is (*I think*) currently timetabled for 8 weeks away. McManus will be an obvious contender, as will a few others. At this stage though, I'd imagine Eamon Gilmore is probably best placed. More as and when...

Irish Times piece; RTÉ story
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2007, 02:21:48 PM »

Whooaaahhh.... First I heard about this.

Jas...first for breaking news!

Michael D for the leadership! Smiley

(Or Tommy Broughan, now that would be an interesting choice.)

Interesting would be the right word, alright Smiley

Anyhoo, as of yet, nobody has declared themselves officially in the race.
Three members though have declared an interest though...

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoighaire)
The early front-runner. Formerly-Democratic Left; formerly formerly Worker's Party; formerly formerly formerly associated with Official Sinn Féin. Was active in student politics - ex-President of my old college's Student Union and ex-President of the Union of Students of Ireland. Worked for a trade union (SIPTU) prior to becoming a TD in 1989. He has a safe seat in Dún Laoighaire. He was a Junior Minister during the Rainbow government (FG; Lab; DemLeft, 1994-97). Unsuccessfully contested for the Labour leadership in 2002 against Rabbitte.

Joan Burton (Dublin W)
An ex-lecturer, she was first elected in the 'Spring Tide' of 1992 (Labour's best ever election). An Old Labour (in the Irish as opp. UK sense) member, she was a Junior Minister during the Rainbow but lost her seat to Socialist Party candidate Joe Higgins in 1997. She was re-elected in 2002 and was a leadership candidate then also. Put in a very creditable performance, but obviously wasn't enough. Dublin West will amost certainly get an extra seat next time out, making her seat a safe one.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin NE)
Brougham is an ex-teacher and was also elected during the 1992 Spring Tide, Dublin NE representing a particularly remarkable 2 gains for Labour. His seat is not as safe as the previous two, but it would be a bad election for the party in this sort of seat disappeared for them. He has been strongly critical of the Labour election pact with FG - very openly so on election night. Not likely to get very far in a leadership contest. One pundit today suggested he'd do well to get someone to second his nomination.

Plenty of other potential candidates out there, even with a Dáil team of 20. (Liz McManus; Jan O'Sullivan; Brendan Howlin... ) Still a game of wait and see, the party executive will be meeting next Saturday. By then, we should have a clearer picture of who the contenders will be. It's likely that a new leader won't be in place until October.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2007, 01:22:20 PM »

In the race for the Labour leadership, Eamon Gilmore formally announced his candidacy this morning. He is the strong favourite to win, especially following the announcement of former leadership hopeful Brendan Howlin (Lab-Wexford) that he would not be running.

We also have the first person who has officially entered the race for the Deputy Leadership position - Jan O'Sullivan (Lab-Limerick E).



In other news, a Sinn Féin town and county councillor based in Wexford, Jimmy Fleming, has announced that he's leaving the party for Fianna Fáil. This sort of move, i.e. defecting from one party to another, is actually very unusual in Irish politics -where the norm for persons leaving a party is usually to sit as an Independent, which is more viable politically here than in many other places. It is particularly unusual in that it is a Sinn Féin defection, and a Sinn Féin defection in the South, and further a SF defection to Fianna Fáil. It's as yet unclear what the reason for the move is.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2007, 01:59:07 PM »

It looks like Eamonn Gilmore... Gully = not happy, Thinks labour should try someone from that uncivilized backwater outside the pale.

The problem there being that Labour don't really have that many from outside the Pale and those that are aren't really suitable.

Or Tommy Broughan, someone who actually bring something new.

Something new, yes. For some reason, I'd be inclined to think that Brougham leadership would potentially result in very bad results for the party.

Gilmore is originally from the West so that might help.


True.
They have remarkably similar backgorunds. Both born in the West, involved in student politics in Galway and nationally, involved in the unions, ex-Workers Party and Democratic Left.

At least Burton and McManus have the "OMG A WOMAN!11!1" factor

Yeah, but listening to either of them makes me very uncomfortable and I've never been able to put a finger on why exactly that is.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2007, 02:46:16 PM »

He has said that they will fight the next election as an independent party not allying with anyone else and set the rather ambitious target of 30 seats.

Interesting that in England, Scotland, and now Ireland, the respective Labour parties have all changed leaders in non-contests. Rhodri Morgan and Mark Durkan watch out!
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2007, 03:11:28 PM »

He has said that they will fight the next election as an independent party not allying with anyone else and set the rather ambitious target of 30 seats.


... Which is five years away (even If the greens decide to catipulate Bertie still has enough of a majority; thus my ever growing conspiracy theory towards why the Greens are in goverment - Scape goats for new Enviormental taxes to be levied due to an increasing deficit - which is due to the decline in the Housing market.)

Woah, woah, woah. No need to start talking about deficits. The Budget has been in surplus for about 10 years now, hasn't it? Though it's shrank considerably, I don't think we're likely to see a serious deficit issue unless there's a serious change in out economic fortunes in the near future.

The slowing housing market is certainly a huge concern but even with the Greens in government I don't think we'll see environmental taxes really being used to prop up the exchequer. Not yet anyway. Incentivisation is likely to remain the focus of envisonmental taxes for years to come.

I also think that Bertie took on the Greens because their demands were so low and they proved easy to dominate in the government formation negotiations, while the benefits of adding their 6 seats to the government total add hugely to  government stability and in effect his own safety as Taoiseach for years.

Of course what do Labour plan to do after 2012 even if they get 30 seats?

If you ask me, the same thing that Spring should have done in 1992. Force a FF-FG coalition and sit as opposition leader for 5 years heading into the next election.

I assume now Gilmore is going to take a "wait and see" approach. And It's hard to see where Labour could pick up an extra 10 - perhaps a barrier on 5 at most - and that is if no-one retires.

I think high 20s is doable, on a good day. Especially if we see the Green vote dissipate. Will also depend on how SF perform.

Their problem is getting the right candidates. The party is aging very fast and there is a real dearth of young electable talent.

30 seats is a big ask and Gilmore is no Dick Spring, but maybe...just maybe, if circumstances are right...
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2007, 07:09:37 AM »

In my mini-Conspiracy theory I should have also said "and make Fianna Fail an excuse to weasel out of their promise to cut the top rate of Income tax" but hey it's not like Fianna Fail to make Sh*t up in their manifesto, now is it? (Yes, Yes, I know all parties do it, but FF have a peculiar history..)

More plausible ground here. Though I'll also agree that FF need no help in backing out of electoral promises.

I'm still amazed that Dick Spring didn't decide to go for the FG + DL option immediatly, hell both Lab + DL got over 40 seats in that election. Now together they're only on 20... (and there are very few actual gains, a second seat in Wicklow, Dun Laoghaire - maybe, a seat in Dublin South, both Tipperary's, Kerry and Louth... Possible in level of likelyhood. They will probably lose Galway West if Michael D retires and Waterford if Brian O'Shea does likewise...)

Yeah, the list of Labour targets make a sorry picture.

IMO, these are the most likely in order...

1st Tier
1. Dublin South Central: Byrne came very close against Ó Snodaigh.
2. Dublin North: Should be able to pick up anti-establishment Green votes
3. Meath West: Hannigan should be able to give this another good shot next time from his Senate seat. Shouldn't take a great deal to unseat FF here.

2nd Tier
4. Kerry North: O'Brien fell apart but there is a Labour vote here obviously.
5. Tipperary South: Probably dependent on Healy not running.
6. Dublin South: Would need a single strong candidate and would be dependent major gains into Ryan's support.

3rd Tier
7. Kerry South: Would be and should be doable except that O'Donoghue is now CC.

The 'We Live in Hope' Category
Wicklow; Carlow-Kilkenny; Dublin North Central; Louth; Dún Laoighaire; Tipperary North

There are leftist votes in all of them. But Labour would have to get lucky in terms of circumstances, candidates and other factors to pick off any of them next time out.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2007, 12:51:09 PM »

Kerry is likely to be merged into one five-seat constituency and Louth is to gain a seat iirc.

Ah, true, I didn't consider any boundary changes there. Yes, those changes are definite possibiles, I wouldn't put it past the Commission though to retain two 3 seaters based in Kerry (probably by working in some of Limerick into the equation). They have an unnatural love of 3-seaters... Angry

But the big problem for Labour here is that alot of their traditional vote has gone to SF. In Kerry also alot of that vote seemed to be personal; so what hope labour without Dick Spring or the Moyninhans?

Yeah, not great. Ferris has done well in Kerry North, but a crucial point for Labour next time out will be how SF on the whole perform. Have SF peaked? Or was this election a temporary blip on their path to more seats?

Look at 1992 and where Labour gained, not just in the particular obvious places but Clare, Laois-Offaly, Sligo-Leitrim, Two seats in Dublin North East (Both gains).. they lost all but one of those (Broughan's seat in DNE) in 1997 and have never came close to getting them back, and almost certainly have no chance now.

Yep, but then nobody expected them to gain those seats in 1992, not even the Labour party themselves. You would have gotten fantastic odds on a Labour gain in Clare even on election day in 1992.

Of course you are correct that alot of Labour's vote depend on how well the Greens do in Goverment (or rather; how well they do in Goverment in regards to satisfying their 'base'.)

Yep, I think Labour's challenge will be to try and dominate all shades of the left. They need to eat into Green votes, SF votes as well as those ultra soft leftists who have voted with FF recently. Not an easy task though.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2007, 05:39:47 PM »


Electoral constituencies are multi-member and decided upon by an independent panel. While these facts don't necessarily preclude the possibility of gerrymandering occuring, they do reduce it's likelihood and potential effectiveness. I wouldn't accept that gerrymandering (as practised in the US) is actually happening here.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2007, 06:30:16 PM »


Electoral constituencies are multi-member and decided upon by an independent panel. While these facts don't necessarily preclude the possibility of gerrymandering occuring, they do reduce it's likelihood and potential effectiveness. I wouldn't accept that gerrymandering (as practised in the US) is actually happening here.

Thus the "seems to be" in my original post. (Though you have to admit that alot of the current districts benefit FF, especially at SF's expense funnily enough.)

Not so sure.

It would probably have taken a concerted effort at gerrymandering to increase the number of Dublin SF TDs on the last election numbers while still working with mainly 3-seater constituencies. Plus, II'd imagine it very difficult work gerrymandering Dublin to either the benefit or detriment of FF simply redrawing constituencies without actually changing the actual size of the seats (i.e. more 3 or 5 seaters or whatever).
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2007, 06:52:37 PM »

By my comment I was referring to the fact that in as far as North Dublin is concerned, the commission love of three seaters is screwing SF over (not that I actually thinks a bad thing in a results way; the process is bad though, obviously) - this may change as the commission is looking into uniting Dublin North Central and Dublin North East into a 5 seater 'Dublin East', with some of DNE being broken off to join Dublin North, which would then become 5 seats aswell. There is definetly one SF quota in "Dublin East". And if the constituency commission brought back six seaters than SF would odds on to gain at least one if not two in Donegal and possibly one in a united Sligo-Roscommon-Leitrim constituency. There is also a significant SF vote in Dublin North West and Dublin Central, with great SF potential in Dublin West (Though I suspect that Joe Higgins takes alot of their votes; but I cannae be sure of that) - Turn the Northside map from about 6-7 three\four seaters into a couple of five seaters and you'd get a couple of SF seats.

Most southside (well, south Eastside) constituencies that are five seaters would NEVER elected a Sinn Fein candidate, including my own.

Yep, true.

It is though unfortunately beyond the powers of the commission to play with anything other than 3, 4 or 5-seaters.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2007, 07:10:14 PM »

Really? Must have been misinformed. Sad - I wonder when that was made into law (Tullymander? - though it seems to be alot earlier?) in the early days of the state there were eight seat constituencies in places like Dublin North. With PR-STV we don't need such a decentralized system as we have in the present.

It's actually a legislative requirement, though for the life of me I can't think which Act it is at the moment. Will have to look up some stuff.

The record BTW is a 9-seater, which was Galway from the 4th to the 8th Dáil.
Since the 13th Dáil, all constituencies have been either 3,4 or 5-seaters.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2007, 07:29:50 PM »

An interesting utterly unrelated question here for you Jas to do with the previous referendum on citizenship - which passed ridiculously and to as little fanfair and debate as possible (80-20 in favour of reform):

I recall all too well as one of the 20%.

What county recorded the highest and lowest votes in favour? Admittely here we're only talking about a 10 percent difference but the results surprised me quite a lot. (Another interesting aside, both these counties had by far the highest turnouts.)

I seem to recall looking at the results and being surprised to find that it was Sligo which stood out as the most opposed (in a referendum which had remarkably uniform results across the country) - for reasons I couldn't explain then, or now for that matter.

No idea about which county was strongest in support.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2007, 07:30:32 AM »

http://www.electoralgeography.com/en/countries/i/ireland/2004-referendum-ireland.html

Unsurprisingly Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown was the county council with the highest level of opposition - but passed unusually highly in the other Dublin counties. But as for county level you were right about Sligo, but this I'm trying to figure out (Opposition percentage in bold):

Sligo County 68.95% 73.36% 26.64%
Then..
Donegal County 62.22% 74.65% 25.35%
And..
Leitrim County 75.70% 76.29% 23.71%

But then in the exact same region:
Longford County 71.29% 84.37% 15.63% - lowest level of oppositon.

What happened there Huh

Well the most academic answer I can give you is that Longford is just wierd.
Actually, I'm very surprised by the relatively high support in Donegal, I would've thought they'd be one of the most opposed.

The various referenda are probably the best actual measure of the relative liberalism (or otherwise) across the country, given the remarkable absense of ideology in electoral politics.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2007, 03:27:37 PM »

Significant anniversary in Irish history today, it's 400 years since the Flight of the Earls.

And today the current recognised leader of the Gael is also facing difficult times. Though Mr. Ahern will probably decide not to flee the country, á la O'Neill and O'Donnell, he is undergoing a difficult questioning process at the Mahon Tribunal. Today was his second day before the Tribunal answering questions about his personal finances from the early 90s. No killer blow yet, but he's clearly unable to paint a picture which will satisfy all. And it's not over yet, Day 3 in the hotseat will follow shortly. Watch this space...
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2007, 03:40:50 PM »

I saw someone at Dublin Castle (the venue of the Tribunal) wearing a t-shirt which I thought worked well. It said:

Been There
Done That
Bought the Taoiseach
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2007, 04:01:37 PM »

Now that I think of it, in a discussion on this:



on one of the Irish politics discussion sites, someone suggested for here:
"Not Bassett, Just Bertie" - which I thought was quite fitting.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2007, 07:18:18 PM »

The first major opinion poll since the election will be published in the Sunday Business Post this morning - polling for the SBP by RedC as usual.. Overall, not a great deal of change.

The headlines are likely to compare the poll with the General Election figures. Personally, given that RedC released a poll the day before the election - I think those figures offer a better reflection of any trends which may or may not be there. Doing so gives quite different perspectives on how well the the Greens and SF are doing.

23 May24 May23 Sept
RedCElectionRedC
Fianna Fáil3841.640
Fine Gael2627.327
Labour1110.111
Green64.77
Sinn Féin96.96
PD32.73
Other76.66


And on Bertiegate:
Do you believe An Taoiseach's evidence about his personal finances given at the Mahon Tribunal?
Yes: 32
No: 42
DK: 26

Is the Mahon Tribunal right to investigate these matters?
Yes: 50
No: 43
DK: 7

Should An Taoiseach resign if he is found to have lied to the Tribunal?
Yes: 59 [includes 40% of FF voters]
No: 34
DK: 7

The paper also indicates that Ahern is likely to face at least another 5-7 days before the Tribunal answering questions on his finances.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2007, 09:35:10 AM »

Wow.. I didn't expect Green % to be that high, or maybe It's too early for anyone to make a serious judgement yet. As I said already should the goverment not collapse I suspect that whatever votes the greens will lose from the "sellout" crowd they will gain more in second preferences from FF voters. (Perhaps getting alot of those which ATM go to the PDs; which the below poll doesn't give me much pessissism that they are anything but defunct.)

Up until the election, nobody was really sure how big the respective 'fundie' and 'realo' wings of the party were. The vote to go into government and the Gormley v. McKenna leadership vote give some insight into that as far as the party membership is concerned.

There's no doubt though that they're performing a delicate balancing act. Gormley made comments at the conference this week to the effect that neither he nor Ryan have been inhibited in any way in their ministerial roles by FF - and used as an example his refusal to approve the County Monaghan Development Plan.

I think it's still too early to tell whether the Greens will be able to hold onto their entire base - or whether they'll have to hunt out pastures new. Personally, I think the latter. The whole issue over the Tara motorway thing (with more protests over the past few days by the type of people the Greens would be the natural choice for) highlights the fact that there will be difficult choices for the Greens and they won't always be able to make the decision that would please their voters. If the list of these decision expands too much, thy find themselves in a very precarious position - and if Bertie should fall, then I suspect Brian Cowen wouldn't take a lot of convincing to help show them the door if things got difficult.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2007, 09:49:12 AM »

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny has laid down a motion of no confidence in An Taoiseach Bertie Ahern which will be dealt with later this evening on the first day of the new Dáil term. It will be the first motion of no confidence vote put forward against a Taoiseach since 1994.

Yesterday, the new Labour leader Eamon Gilmore called on Ahern to resign for his failure to properly account for himself before the Mahon Tribunal. The motion is brought for the same reasons. However, it has no real chance of success. I don't see any way in which the coalition partners (PDs, Greens or the rag-tag Indepenedents) will not support Ahern. The move is really just a political stunt to keep the issue in the news and set the terms for the upcoming Dáil term - in which case I think it misjudged.

The Dáil standing orders limit how often these sort of motions can be brought (I think it may be limited to one every 6 months) - so I don't think they should be used unless they have a genuine shot at succeeding. While the Tribunal issue may eventually bring Bertie down, I can only see it happening if the Tribunal lawyers can actually produce solid evidence or if the Tribunal judge gives a fairly damning account of Ahern in the next Tribunal report.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2007, 04:32:58 PM »

FTR, the government won the confidence vote 81 to 76.

No real surprise. Notably though Ned O'Keefe (FF-Cork East) went AWOL. It's fair to say that O'Keefe isn't Ahern's biggest fan and it'll be interesting to see what consequences may follow. (The other 7 government absentees would appear to have been expected.)

Today however the government won a vote on a motion by a single vote when it appears there was significant absenteeism. The vote was on one of the controversial political stories of the summer - the decision by Aer Lingus to abandon it's Shannon-Heathrow route in favour of Belfast-Heathrow. THe government owning 25% of Aer Lingus faced considerable criticism over their refusal to try and stop the move or even officially oppose it. RTÉ reported than (unlike the confidence motion vote) pairing was in operation. It'll take a while for the full list of voters to appear, but it will be interesting to see whether the FF Mid-Western TDs voted, given their apparant disagreement with the government on this issue.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2007, 06:10:32 PM »

Turns out the FF Mid-West contingent were all present and correct. In any normal political country, this would represent be the height of hypocracy. Not here though... Angry

Notably, Ned O'Keefe missed this vote as well. The Chief Whip has demanded an explanation...we'll have to wait and see if there's any developments.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2007, 06:30:07 PM »

I love the "OMG TEH GOVERMENT ALMOST LOST HOW DARE TDs BE INDEPENDENT!!111" reaction.

Which is why:
a) Democracy is really a joke in Ireland.
b) The Parliamentary system is alot of bollocks really.

Considerably stronger language than I'd use, but I have sympathy with these points. The fused executive-legislature in particular bothers me; that and the Seanad's neutered state.

At least now I have more to watch the blood letting and theatre Mahon Tribunal continue without the media thinking it somehow irrelevant.. Now come on, greenies, time to show some backbone.

The Greens have proven they will hold firm. They have now firmly nailed themselves to Bertie and only a smoking gun or the next Mahon report would give them reason to exit.

The decision to bring them into government though clearly paid off this week - otherwise the Government would have found huge difficulty in winning the confidence vote (and would almost certainly have lost the Shannon vote).
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2007, 07:36:25 AM »

Sadly I'd have to agree about the Greens - funny before the election I was thinking of joining the Young Greens.. not a chance of that happening now. Perhaps they should have stuck two minute ads on buddhist meditation.

Grin

As for the original point; I'm not even sure that Ireland needs a symbolic executor - but having an obvious leader is such a plus point for the intellectually lazy to focus on (also known as "the Meeja".) One thing about the 2007 Green Party Manifesto which alot of the document the Greens forgot about when going into goverment was a plan to reduce the number TDs to 120 (GOOD LUCK) - Ah well, the more I go on the more I tempted towards Radicalism.

120 TDs - oh no! Then the quality of the cabinet would surely inevitably decline. If the government had only 60-odd TDs instead of 80-odd (and I use 'odd' intentionally) then goodness knows how many more gormless so-and-soes end up making decisions on educaton and whatnot.
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Јas
Jas
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,705
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2007, 11:09:41 AM »

Yes clearly with only 120TDs we would miss some great contributors to democracy such as, say, Michael Mulcahy, Cyprian Brady, Barry Andrews, John Curran, Charlie Flanagan (see I can be biased against FG too. Wink ), All the Waterford TDs, et al.

I don't disagree that there are multiple members who we could do without. I'm just saying that we'll lose some of the more capable ones too. And the more you cut it by, the more likely one is to have to appoint lower quality candidates to higher offices.

Wait a minute, what am I talking about - this is Ireland - where your level of political mediocrity is more likely to get you elected. Being a FF TD is a pretty sweet job.. 100,000 a year often for doing near fuck all except being yes men to the goverment but because of the "Keltik Tigah" you won't ever lose your seat unless you're an idiot.. I mean just look at, well, Michael Mulcahy, Cyprian Brady (oooh.. he's on the radio now), Barry Andrews, etc...

I don't disagree with this either. I'd have no problem with paying them less, for example. I would say also though that I'd imagine lowering the number of seats would also strengthen the power of the party whip.
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