Ireland General Discussion

[ObserverIE]

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Is that a serious question because of course they will (Well... maybe not, Coppinger, she seems too much of a true believer).

I'm old enough to remember the Sticks or the likes of Emmet Stagg being true believers, but to be fair, Joe Higgins was always Joe Higgins.

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That doesn't answer my question.
[/quote]

OK, I misunderstood the question. There are still plenty of bubble-dwellers in the media, although Collins is more special than most.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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It was more a joke on the "Where do FG-bots come from?" theme but this will also work.

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I fully expect Sinn Fein to morph into Fianna Fail over the next 10-15 years (that might be too optimistic).

[ObserverIE]

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It was more a joke on the "Where do FG-bots come from?" theme but this will also work.

When a Daddy FG-bot and a Mummy FG-bot meet...

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Little mention from major sources yes, but this particular scandal breaking all over the intertubes

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[afleitch]

Little mention from major sources yes, but this particular scandal breaking all over the intertubes

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I’ve been following this over the last few days. Regardless of the causes of death (which may or may not be of concern at present) the fact that these 800 victims were deemed to not be worthy of a proper burial speaks volumes of what the nuns likely thought of them.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Little mention from major sources yes, but this particular scandal breaking all over the intertubes

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I’ve been following this over the last few days. Regardless of the causes of death (which may or may not be of concern at present) the fact that these 800 victims were deemed to not be worthy of a proper burial speaks volumes of what the nuns likely thought of them.

According to the various sources on the intertubes (some reliable, some not so much), the death certificates of c.100 have been found and the main cause of death, in about half of cases, was starvation.

[ObserverIE]

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Yes, which reminds us that none of this is new really. Could have been predicted from the information given from all the previous scandals.

[patrick1]

Wow @ those numbers above.  The sharp drop jumps out at me too.  Is Noel Browne properly appreciated?  Seems almost forgotten rather than a national hero.

[ObserverIE]

Wow @ those numbers above.  The sharp drop jumps out at me too.  Is Noel Browne properly appreciated?  Seems almost forgotten rather than a national hero.

My guess is that the sharp drop (in both categories, but much sharper among "illegitimate") is due to the arrival of penicillin. Infectious childhood diseases were always going to hit harder in crowded institutions than amongst the general population, regardless of the level of care given.

[patrick1]

Wow @ those numbers above.  The sharp drop jumps out at me too.  Is Noel Browne properly appreciated?  Seems almost forgotten rather than a national hero.

My guess is that the sharp drop (in both categories, but much sharper among "illegitimate") is due to the arrival of penicillin. Infectious childhood diseases were always going to hit harder in crowded institutions than amongst the general population, regardless of the level of care given.

Yes, but didnt the reforms Browne was able to briefly introduce lead to greater access to those lifesaving interventions?  From what I remember the whole Mother and Child scheme was tragic.

[ObserverIE]

Wow @ those numbers above.  The sharp drop jumps out at me too.  Is Noel Browne properly appreciated?  Seems almost forgotten rather than a national hero.

My guess is that the sharp drop (in both categories, but much sharper among "illegitimate") is due to the arrival of penicillin. Infectious childhood diseases were always going to hit harder in crowded institutions than amongst the general population, regardless of the level of care given.

Yes, but didnt the reforms Browne was able to briefly introduce lead to greater access to those lifesaving interventions?  From what I remember the whole Mother and Child scheme was tragic.

There were already reforms in the pipeline such as the Health Act of 1947 which introduced the concept of the Mother and Child scheme before the Inter-Party coalition was elected in 1948. Browne's initial focus for the first couple of years had been on the treatment of TB, which was a major cause of death at the time. The Mother and Child controversy with the Catholic Bishops (and the medical organisations behind the scenes) came later in 1950.

Browne was a visionary (and, unfortunately, we have still not achieved his vision of a public health system) but had the tragic flaw of making enemies easily.

[ObserverIE]

Millward Brown/IMS for tomorrow's Indo (changes since the pre-local election poll):

Ind/Oth 27 (-)
SF 26 (+3)
FF 20 (-1)
FG 20 (-)
Lab 5 (-1)
Green 2 (-)

I think Labour may have been this low in opinion polls in the mid 80s, but I wasn't paying it much attention at the time.

[Simfan34]

It's happened, hasn't it?

[ObserverIE]

It's happened, hasn't it?

*Gets up from keyboard*

*Walks to window*

*Opens curtains and stares into darkness*

*Sees no sign of asteroid strike/alien first contact/second coming*

[Simfan34]

It's happened, hasn't it?

*Gets up from keyboard*

*Walks to window*

*Opens curtains and stares into darkness*

*Sees no sign of asteroid strike/alien first contact/second coming*

The poll result. People (by which I mean posters here) have been taking about the collapse of the present political system and with "other" at #1 and SF at #2 that seems to be happening.

[ObserverIE]

The poll result. People (by which I mean posters here) have been taking about the collapse of the present political system and with "other" at #1 and SF at #2 that seems to be happening.

It is - so far - a single poll.

The traditional party system went in 2011 with the collapse of FF. Or at least that was Act I of the drama.

What happened two weeks ago was that FG discovered that they, too, were mortal. (Labour had figured that out last year. What they haven't figured out is what to do about it.)

[politicus]

The poll result. People (by which I mean posters here) have been taking about the collapse of the present political system and with "other" at #1 and SF at #2 that seems to be happening.

It is - so far - a single poll.

The traditional party system went in 2011 with the collapse of FF. Or at least that was Act I of the drama.

What happened two weeks ago was that FG discovered that they, too, were mortal. (Labour had figured that out last year. What they haven't figured out is what to do about it.)

How would you guess the Irish party system looks like 5 years from now?

EDIT: By which I mean what would be the approximate strength of the parties and their relation to each other?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

The poll result. People (by which I mean posters here) have been taking about the collapse of the present political system and with "other" at #1 and SF at #2 that seems to be happening.

It is - so far - a single poll.

The traditional party system went in 2011 with the collapse of FF. Or at least that was Act I of the drama.

What happened two weeks ago was that FG discovered that they, too, were mortal. (Labour had figured that out last year. What they haven't figured out is what to do about it.)

How would you guess the Irish party system looks like 5 years from now?

Personally I expect two elections in 2016, the first won't see any possible government formed, with eventually a FF-FG or FG-FF coalition being formed, perhaps with the support of a few independents. The new Independents Alliance (AKA Reform Alliance) will probably cause a few complications, but there is nowhere near enough 'base' of the sort of thing they support, contrary to their own expectations.

[You kip if you want to...]

Seems that Irish politics has gone the way of Greece.

[politicus]

Seems that Irish politics has gone the way of Greece.

With Sinn Fein as Syriza and Labour as Pasok it kinda makes sense. Still, they have two versions of ND.

Not sure who would be ANEL and they, thankfully, have no Golden Dawn.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Seems that Irish politics has gone the way of Greece.

With Sinn Fein as Syriza and Labour as Pasok it kinda makes sense. Still, they have two versions of ND.

Not sure who would be ANEL and they, thankfully, have no Golden Dawn.

The new 'Independents Alliance' party would be ANEL. Although SF = SYRIZA is not a point I would emphasize too much.

[politicus]

Seems that Irish politics has gone the way of Greece.

With Sinn Fein as Syriza and Labour as Pasok it kinda makes sense. Still, they have two versions of ND.

Not sure who would be ANEL and they, thankfully, have no Golden Dawn.

The new 'Independents Alliance' party would be ANEL. Although SF = SYRIZA is not a point I would emphasize too much.

Nah, SF = Syriza is a bit of light trolling.

How much of the 27% independents and others in that last poll would go to the Independents Alliance? And who are the rest?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Seems that Irish politics has gone the way of Greece.

With Sinn Fein as Syriza and Labour as Pasok it kinda makes sense. Still, they have two versions of ND.

Not sure who would be ANEL and they, thankfully, have no Golden Dawn.

The new 'Independents Alliance' party would be ANEL. Although SF = SYRIZA is not a point I would emphasize too much.

Nah, SF = Syriza is a bit of light trolling.

How much of the 27% independents and others in that last poll would go to the Independents Alliance? And who are the rest?

Difficult to say. Won't be large. The rest of independents/others are a mixture of ex-political party politicos (from all parties), local interest trolls, soft left community activists/campaigners and various far left groupings.

[ObserverIE]

Seems that Irish politics has gone the way of Greece.

With Sinn Fein as Syriza and Labour as Pasok it kinda makes sense. Still, they have two versions of ND.

FF are more PASOK (in terms of their position in the political ecosystem) than they are ND. FG are certainly ND, though.