American Missionaries killed in Haiti.

[lfromnj]

So we should give into hostage demands for a dumb person not happy making six figures and wanting to make seven figures but not respond at all to a gang that killed another dumb person who was actually trying to help people .

These two situations are not really comparable.

In the case of Griner, she was arrested by a foreign government because that government wanted to use her as leverage to extract demands. We can (and did) secure her release.

These missionaries were killed by a gang either out of sadism or as collateral damage in an attack against someone else. We cannot bring them back to life, so any response would just be about getting revenge.

Imagine actually believing Biden was right to free one of the most dangerous and prolific arms dealers in the world in exchange for some basketball player who couldn’t wait till she got back to the US to get high

At least these folks were, misguided or not, actually there to try and help people.  Some folks have really been dropping the mask in this thread.  

What is bombing Haiti going to solve? Nothing. Biden was right to do what he could to secure the release of an American citizen. Just because she's Black and LGBTQ doesn't mean her life isn't of as much value as White Christian missionaries.

The US protects it's citizens by issuing travel advisories through the state department. If one doesn't follow them then they risk their lives.

Its not bombing Haiti en masse. Its a limited precision strike beyond what the Kenyans are already doing based on possible intel we have on who killed American citizens. There is no imminent danger so obviously the acceptable civilian collateral damage should be zero. If we don't have that intel then oh well , we should move on. We could also ask the Kenyans to directly go after this gang first as a warning as well.  Either way would further discourage Haitian Gangs from killing any remaining American citizens inside Haiti .  They are not irrational Islamic terrorists and usually just want the money/revenue flowing in along with control so killing a few will probably teach them a lesson.

We do protect our citizens with travel advisories and the couple's death is at least somewhat their fault and the US isn't to blame. However being an American citizen should still mean something and it should at the very bottom be backed by force if reasonably possible.

I don't think the Bout deal was as bad as Mr.X says it was but it still rewards and encourages further hostage taking. It is absolutely not harm reduction but encourages future harm.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

So we should give into hostage demands for a dumb person not happy making six figures and wanting to make seven figures but not respond at all to a gang that killed another dumb person who was actually trying to help people .

These two situations are not really comparable.

In the case of Griner, she was arrested by a foreign government because that government wanted to use her as leverage to extract demands. We can (and did) secure her release.

These missionaries were killed by a gang either out of sadism or as collateral damage in an attack against someone else. We cannot bring them back to life, so any response would just be about getting revenge.

Imagine actually believing Biden was right to free one of the most dangerous and prolific arms dealers in the world in exchange for some basketball player who couldn’t wait till she got back to the US to get high

At least these folks were, misguided or not, actually there to try and help people.  Some folks have really been dropping the mask in this thread. 

What is bombing Haiti going to solve? Nothing. Biden was right to do what he could to secure the release of an American citizen. Just because she's Black and LGBTQ doesn't mean her life isn't of as much value as White Christian missionaries.

The US protects it's citizens by issuing travel advisories through the state department. If one doesn't follow them then they risk their lives.

1) Bombing gang strongholds and doing drone strikes on gang leaders would act as a deterrent in much the way that Mexican cartels are far more cautious than they used to be about targeting Americans (even if it still happens every once in a while, it is nowhere near as bad as it was).

2) What does Griner’s skin color, religion, or sexual orientation have to do with any of this?  She’s a random basketball player who got arrested because she lacked the self-control to wait to get high until she was out of Russia.  I’m sorry, but her staying out of jail simply was not worth releasing one of the most dangerous arms dealers in the world.  Even if she’d done nothing wrong and Russia had threatened to execute her (neither of which was the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it.  Tons of innocent people will die for decades to come because of Biden’s screw up on that.

3) I’m pretty sure there was a travel advisory for Russia and either way, she had no business being there nor did any other American civilian (not counting reporters, of course).  

[Sol]

Outrageous, but our weak President won't do anything.  RIP

Was Trump a weak president for not holding India accountable for this dumb missionary?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Chau

Chau is a special case because he was literally attempting genocide. His death was the equivalent of killing Baby Hitler; all people, even deeply committed Christians, should have cheered the day he died.

[Joe Republic]

Why were my posts here deleted?  Nothing I said was "inappropriate", ffs.   I was even careful in both posts to say if that they were actually doing of something of practical use in Haiti, then this was terrible news and RIP.

I often forget how utterly weird and ultrasensitive this forum is about religion, or the people who participate in it (to their own detriment).

Not to mention the hilarious irony of being lectured on the subject of 'bigotry' by Fuzzy Bear of all people?!

[DaleCooper]

What is America supposed to do in response? Bomb Port-au-Prince? This is another reason why this extreme tourism missionary work is dangerous. Even if these people were 100% selfless and willing to die for their church school, their deaths have now resulted in knee-jerk calls for retaliation from some Americans, which puts both the US and Haiti in a bad spot.

The fact that this charity didn't immediately evacuate all of the Americans when this gang war broke out reflects very poorly on this organization.

[Meclazine for Israel]

For a s#@*hole country, they certainly have a massive GDP.

"Over half of the world's vetiver oil (an essential oil used in high-end perfumes) comes from Haiti.

Haiti has also moved to expand to higher-end manufacturing, producing Android-based tablets and current sensors and transformers."

(WIKIPEDIA - Economy of Haiti)

[lfromnj]

What is America supposed to do in response? Bomb Port-au-Prince? This is another reason why this extreme tourism missionary work is dangerous. Even if these people were 100% selfless and willing to die for their church school, their deaths have now resulted in knee-jerk calls for retaliation from some Americans, which puts both the US and Haiti in a bad spot.

The fact that this charity didn't immediately evacuate all of the Americans when this gang war broke out reflects very poorly on this organization.

Do you support or oppose the Kenyan led mission which is funded by the US? If you support it, why not ask them to help US interests and punish this gang first?

I probably do agree drone striking even if its strictly a gang would probably be too controversial internationally but why not ask the Kenyan police we are funding to help us out ?

FWIW its absolutely possible we are. I am not blaming Biden on this.

[emailking]

To clarify, Griner had medically prescribed cannabis oil that she brought to Russia by mistake.

Roberts asked Griner to recall the moment she "reached down" in her bag and "felt the cartridge" when Russian airport security asked to search her things.

"The agent stared as I slowly lifted out a cartridge with cannabis oil," Griner said in a voiceover excerpt from her book, Coming Home, out on May 7.

"In Arizona, cannabis is legal. In Russia, it’s forbidden. I knew that. Honest to God, I just totally forgot that the pen was in my bag," Griner's voiceover continued.

The Phoenix Mercury star told Roberts that she remembered thinking to herself, "Oh my God, how did I make this mistake? How was I this absent-minded?"

https://people.com/brittney-griner-felt-her-life-crumbling-brought-cannabis-oil-russia-8641815

[lfromnj]

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/25/nx-s1-4981196/haiti-us-missionary-couple-3-killed

One thing to note is although the man was an American citizen,

Cornett said her parents are full-time missionaries in Haiti, and that she and her two brothers grew up there.

"Davy spoke Creole before he spoke English. It was home," she said in a phone interview. "Haiti was all we knew."

I can definitely now understand why someone doesn't want to go back . He basically spent his entire life in Haiti. Should he have come back to America? Absolutely but it makes sense why he didn't.

[DaleCooper]

What is America supposed to do in response? Bomb Port-au-Prince? This is another reason why this extreme tourism missionary work is dangerous. Even if these people were 100% selfless and willing to die for their church school, their deaths have now resulted in knee-jerk calls for retaliation from some Americans, which puts both the US and Haiti in a bad spot.

The fact that this charity didn't immediately evacuate all of the Americans when this gang war broke out reflects very poorly on this organization.

Do you support or oppose the Kenyan led mission which is funded by the US? If you support it, why not ask them to help US interests and punish this gang first?

I probably do agree drone striking even if its strictly a gang would probably be too controversial internationally but why not ask the Kenyan police we are funding to help us out ?

FWIW its absolutely possible we are. I am not blaming Biden on this.

Yeah, I would be supportive of that. I don't know if any of the important questions related to this incident even have answers. The news coverage I've seen doesn't seem to indicate whether or not this was a coordinated attack or just roaming gang members killing everyone in sight, or perhaps looking for foreigners. I don't know what "retaliation" is supposed to look like, but granted I don't know much about this conflict.

[DrScholl]

So we should give into hostage demands for a dumb person not happy making six figures and wanting to make seven figures but not respond at all to a gang that killed another dumb person who was actually trying to help people .

These two situations are not really comparable.

In the case of Griner, she was arrested by a foreign government because that government wanted to use her as leverage to extract demands. We can (and did) secure her release.

These missionaries were killed by a gang either out of sadism or as collateral damage in an attack against someone else. We cannot bring them back to life, so any response would just be about getting revenge.

Imagine actually believing Biden was right to free one of the most dangerous and prolific arms dealers in the world in exchange for some basketball player who couldn’t wait till she got back to the US to get high

At least these folks were, misguided or not, actually there to try and help people.  Some folks have really been dropping the mask in this thread. 

What is bombing Haiti going to solve? Nothing. Biden was right to do what he could to secure the release of an American citizen. Just because she's Black and LGBTQ doesn't mean her life isn't of as much value as White Christian missionaries.

The US protects it's citizens by issuing travel advisories through the state department. If one doesn't follow them then they risk their lives.

1) Bombing gang strongholds and doing drone strikes on gang leaders would act as a deterrent in much the way that Mexican cartels are far more cautious than they used to be about targeting Americans (even if it still happens every once in a while, it is nowhere near as bad as it was).

2) What does Griner’s skin color, religion, or sexual orientation have to do with any of this?  She’s a random basketball player who got arrested because she lacked the self-control to wait to get high until she was out of Russia.  I’m sorry, but her staying out of jail simply was not worth releasing one of the most dangerous arms dealers in the world.  Even if she’d done nothing wrong and Russia had threatened to execute her (neither of which was the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it.  Tons of innocent people will die for decades to come because of Biden’s screw up on that.

3) I’m pretty sure there was a travel advisory for Russia and either way, she had no business being there nor did any other American civilian (not counting reporters, of course).  

The far-right has a huge issue with Griner being released and it's always been clear why. Somehow Black people always get brought up as a comparison for everything and I'm tired of it. Anyway, Haiti is not being bombed regardless of who the targets are because Biden isn't stupid enough to do that. There are innocent people in gang strongholds that don't deserve to get hurt.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

For a s#@*hole country, they certainly have a massive GDP.

"Over half of the world's vetiver oil (an essential oil used in high-end perfumes) comes from Haiti.

Haiti has also moved to expand to higher-end manufacturing, producing Android-based tablets and current sensors and transformers."

(WIKIPEDIA - Economy of Haiti)

If you can call a $1941 per capita GDP massive.

[Fuzzy Bear]

So we should give into hostage demands for a dumb person not happy making six figures and wanting to make seven figures but not respond at all to a gang that killed another dumb person who was actually trying to help people .

These two situations are not really comparable.

In the case of Griner, she was arrested by a foreign government because that government wanted to use her as leverage to extract demands. We can (and did) secure her release.

These missionaries were killed by a gang either out of sadism or as collateral damage in an attack against someone else. We cannot bring them back to life, so any response would just be about getting revenge.

Imagine actually believing Biden was right to free one of the most dangerous and prolific arms dealers in the world in exchange for some basketball player who couldn’t wait till she got back to the US to get high

At least these folks were, misguided or not, actually there to try and help people.  Some folks have really been dropping the mask in this thread. 

What is bombing Haiti going to solve? Nothing. Biden was right to do what he could to secure the release of an American citizen. Just because she's Black and LGBTQ doesn't mean her life isn't of as much value as White Christian missionaries.

The US protects it's citizens by issuing travel advisories through the state department. If one doesn't follow them then they risk their lives.

1) Bombing gang strongholds and doing drone strikes on gang leaders would act as a deterrent in much the way that Mexican cartels are far more cautious than they used to be about targeting Americans (even if it still happens every once in a while, it is nowhere near as bad as it was).

2) What does Griner’s skin color, religion, or sexual orientation have to do with any of this?  She’s a random basketball player who got arrested because she lacked the self-control to wait to get high until she was out of Russia.  I’m sorry, but her staying out of jail simply was not worth releasing one of the most dangerous arms dealers in the world.  Even if she’d done nothing wrong and Russia had threatened to execute her (neither of which was the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it.  Tons of innocent people will die for decades to come because of Biden’s screw up on that.

3) I’m pretty sure there was a travel advisory for Russia and either way, she had no business being there nor did any other American civilian (not counting reporters, of course).  

The far-right has a huge issue with Griner being released and it's always been clear why. Somehow Black people always get brought up as a comparison for everything and I'm tired of it. Anyway, Haiti is not being bombed regardless of who the targets are because Biden isn't stupid enough to do that. There are innocent people in gang strongholds that don't deserve to get hurt.

I have not indicated that our government should do anything here, one way or the other.

Brittany Griner, on one level, is a loathsome anti-American ingrate, who (hopefully) has changed because America came to her rescue because it was the right thing to do.  She doesn't deserve me buying her merchandise or cheering for her at WNBA games, but she far less deserves imprisonment in Russia for cannabis (and, especially, medical cannabis). 

In the Parable of the Good Shepherd, the keeper of the flock left the 99 to go after the one who had strayed.  Families do this all the time; they don't just write off the erring son or daughter because they may be an imposition on the rest of the household.  They go after the erring one and await their return, hoping and praying for change for the better, but still praying for their return.  To the degree that nations should follow that example, our actions were consistent with this.  Brittany Griner was an American, and a "travel advisory" is different than going to a nation where travel is forbidden for serious reasons.  She is (or, at least, was) an erring member of the family who was brought back, and rightly so.

Should we have let her rot in jail in Russia because the price of her freedom was an Arms Dealer (who, admittedly, had the ability to cause deadly havoc)?  That's a fair question on a secular plane, but on a Higher Plane, there's Proverbs 11:1-3:

1 The LORD detests dishonest scales, but accurate weights find favor with him.  When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.  The integrity of the upright guides them, but the unfaithful are destroyed by their duplicity.

The Russian Justice System was a dishonest scale.  The principle that the punishment of the innocent is worse than the evasion of the guilty is Biblical.  Psalms 37:1-2 says: "Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.  For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb."  Is God not aware of the situation?  Does God not have the power to cut down like the grass the arms dealer whose freedom ransomed Brittany Griner?  Will He not respond to the prayers of His People for protection?  I realize that all of this are unanswered questions for some who will read this, but I would urge the reader to ponder this anyway.

[quesaisje]

Not a story that I expected to set off partisan pissing matches of this intensity. Maybe Trump would drone the Sentinelese if that happened again. But that's getting the old formula backward. The order is invade their country, kill their leaders, and THEN convert them to Christianity.

[afleitch]

Not one person, that I can see has commented on the fact that a third person was killed and they were Haitian.

[jojoju1998]

https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dpoap.html

Most Haitians are Christian already. But I guess Catholicism isn't " Christian " enough.

[Badger]

Outrageous, but our weak President won't do anything.

They knew the risks and accepted them. Why does Biden need to "do" anything?

Getting Griner released is better optics than having her locked up. Let the world see that America will fight for its people.

So we should give into hostage demands for a dumb person not happy making six figures and wanting to make seven figures but not respond at all to a gang that killed another dumb person who was actually trying to help people .

Your prior posts in this thread certainly implied that your demanding Biden drop the bombs was simply partisan bitching over Brittany Greiner rather than anything logical, but it's great to have such explicit affirmance!

[Ferguson97]

I’m sorry, but her staying out of jail simply was not worth releasing one of the most dangerous arms dealers in the world.  Even if she’d done nothing wrong and Russia had threatened to execute her (neither of which was the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it.  

Lol come on, that's just monstrous.

[Bernie Derangement Syndrome Haver]

So if Biden did intervene as some people are saying he should have, how long would it take for MAGA to blast him about "funding another forever war" and not focusing on America First?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I’m sorry, but her staying out of jail simply was not worth releasing one of the most dangerous arms dealers in the world.  Even if she’d done nothing wrong and Russia had threatened to execute her (neither of which was the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it.  

Lol come on, that's just monstrous.

If Al-Qaeda said they were going to execute an American civilian they’d abducted unless we released Khaled Sheikh Mohammed, should we have released him?  Would it be “monstrous” not to do so?

If so, then with all due respect, I think you’re being pretty naive and impractical.  This is basically a “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” situation.  It sucks, but all the Bout deal did was send the message that if you take Americans hostage, you’ll be rewarded (especially if the hostage is someone rich and famous).  

If not, then this is all just hypocrisy on your part and you need to do some long, hard self-reflection about why you see Griner’s life as inherently more valuable than that of any other American.  

Outrageous, but our weak President won't do anything.

They knew the risks and accepted them. Why does Biden need to "do" anything?

Getting Griner released is better optics than having her locked up. Let the world see that America will fight for its people.

So we should give into hostage demands for a dumb person not happy making six figures and wanting to make seven figures but not respond at all to a gang that killed another dumb person who was actually trying to help people .

Your prior posts in this thread certainly implied that your demanding Biden drop the bombs was simply partisan bitching over Brittany Greiner rather than anything logical, but it's great to have such explicit affirmance!

lFromNJ never said anything like that in this thread.  If anything, I’ve been far more critical of Biden re: the Griner deal than lfromnj has.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The real concern here for many appears to be that the event, as it is playing out, does not hurt Joe Biden in the polls.

[Edu]

Not one person, that I can see has commented on the fact that a third person was killed and they were Haitian.

[lfromnj]

I’m sorry, but her staying out of jail simply was not worth releasing one of the most dangerous arms dealers in the world.  Even if she’d done nothing wrong and Russia had threatened to execute her (neither of which was the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it.  

Lol come on, that's just monstrous.

If Al-Qaeda said they were going to execute an American civilian they’d abducted unless we released Khaled Sheikh Mohammed, should we have released him?  Would it be “monstrous” not to do so?

If so, then with all due respect, I think you’re being pretty naive and impractical.  This is basically a “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” situation.  It sucks, but all the Bout deal did was send the message that if you take Americans hostage, you’ll be rewarded (especially if the hostage is someone rich and famous).  

If not, then this is all just hypocrisy on your part and you need to do some long, hard self-reflection about why you see Griner’s life as inherently more valuable than that of any other American.  

Outrageous, but our weak President won't do anything.

They knew the risks and accepted them. Why does Biden need to "do" anything?

Getting Griner released is better optics than having her locked up. Let the world see that America will fight for its people.

So we should give into hostage demands for a dumb person not happy making six figures and wanting to make seven figures but not respond at all to a gang that killed another dumb person who was actually trying to help people .

Your prior posts in this thread certainly implied that your demanding Biden drop the bombs was simply partisan bitching over Brittany Greiner rather than anything logical, but it's great to have such explicit affirmance!

lFromNJ never said anything like that in this thread.  If anything, I’ve been far more critical of Biden re: the Griner deal than lfromnj has.

Yeah I clearly said earlier I haven’t blamed Biden because I don’t exactly know what’s going on behind the scenes. The Kenyan force is a good idea at least and doesn’t risk American lives so it’s politically palatable. It’s very possible the Biden admin or someone has already asked the Kenyans to investigate this if possible.
Regarding Bout I don’t think he was that dangerous if he was due to be released in a few years. I think Putin did just want a propaganda victory more than anything else . I do agree it encourages future similar acts so it probably wasn’t worth it.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I’m sorry, but her staying out of jail simply was not worth releasing one of the most dangerous arms dealers in the world.  Even if she’d done nothing wrong and Russia had threatened to execute her (neither of which was the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it.  

Lol come on, that's just monstrous.

If Al-Qaeda said they were going to execute an American civilian they’d abducted unless we released Khaled Sheikh Mohammed, should we have released him?  Would it be “monstrous” not to do so?

If so, then with all due respect, I think you’re being pretty naive and impractical.  This is basically a “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” situation.  It sucks, but all the Bout deal did was send the message that if you take Americans hostage, you’ll be rewarded (especially if the hostage is someone rich and famous).  

If not, then this is all just hypocrisy on your part and you need to do some long, hard self-reflection about why you see Griner’s life as inherently more valuable than that of any other American.  

Outrageous, but our weak President won't do anything.

They knew the risks and accepted them. Why does Biden need to "do" anything?

Getting Griner released is better optics than having her locked up. Let the world see that America will fight for its people.

So we should give into hostage demands for a dumb person not happy making six figures and wanting to make seven figures but not respond at all to a gang that killed another dumb person who was actually trying to help people .

Your prior posts in this thread certainly implied that your demanding Biden drop the bombs was simply partisan bitching over Brittany Greiner rather than anything logical, but it's great to have such explicit affirmance!

lFromNJ never said anything like that in this thread.  If anything, I’ve been far more critical of Biden re: the Griner deal than lfromnj has.

Yeah I clearly said earlier I haven’t blamed Biden because so don’t exactly know what’s going on behind the scenes. The Kenyan force is a good idea at least and doesn’t risk American lives so it’s politically palatable. It’s very possible the Biden admin or someone has already asked the Kenyans to investigate this if possible.
Regarding Bout I don’t think he was that dangerous if he was due to be released in a few years. I think Putin did just want a propaganda victory more than anything else . I do agree it encourages future similar acts so it probably wasn’t worth it.

Bout had another 15 years left to serve on his 25 year sentence.  He wasn’t due to be released for quite some time.

[DaleCooper]

Okay, so I need to address the fact that the man in this situation was raised in Haiti. That information was omitted from the articles I read yesterday and it changes things, so I no longer stand behind my extreme tourism comparison in this case. I do stand behind that comparison in many other missionary, but that's apparently not relevant here.

I know some evangelicals and mormons who were either raised or have family living in the third-world, and I can't speak to this Haiti situation, but I do know that even in a lot of those cases the young missionaries are still completely unprepared for the chaos and danger that can happen pretty much overnight in third-world countries. This is especially true of the 21-year-old woman that this man brought to Haiti last year. There is no excuse for not evacuating her months ago. The man should've left too. Critics will say that they were there to help the orphans, but I find it hard to believe that there weren't two Haitian evangelicals that could've replaced them when they left. If not, then that's another problem with this organization, because they should be setting up infrastructure that doesn't rely on foreign missionaries. Like I said before, this church could've been targeted because of the American presence there. Even if these two were willing to die, it's not just their lives at stake. Stuff like this can turn into an international incident. Americans could be the target of a ransom or hostage situation, which puts the orphans in greater danger. It is a bad thing to have random Americans on the scene when they're not equipped to handle this. This organization that they worked for should have forced them to leave back in April at the latest.