Biden condemns ICC for requesting an arrest warrant for Netanyahu

[AncestralDemocrat.]

One of the few policy stances I sympathize with Biden.

Hes stuck between a rock and a hard place trying to placate the Israel skeptic and Israel hardliners.
 

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

The World Wars are precisely why we have international institutions, including legal ones. The fact that international law is more honored in the breach isn’t an argument against its necessity.

For better or worse, the ICC is a joke and at best a decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously until it engaged in anti-Israel virtue signaling.  Whatever one thinks of the merits of the idea behind the organization, this much is true.

I'm sure the Congolese, Ugandan, Sudanese, Malian, and Central African military and political figures who are or very recently were in custody due to the ICC would disagree. Dislike it all you want, but the ICC is one of the few organizations that has ever actually done something about enforcing justice for perpetrators crimes against humanity. I'd think its the only one that has done so across multiple conflicts. Its statements on this (and other conflicts, like its warrant against Putin) are newsworthy and widely reported because its record gives it a moral authority regarding war crimes that both Israel and Hamas lack. If it really was a "decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously" its statements would have been ignored like the vast majority of the statements made about this conflicts by no-name organizations have been.

I mean, they will be ignored in every truly meaningful sense as far as the conflict goes and rightly so.  It has no jurisdiction and is simply embarrassing itself.  And that’s assuming the warrants are even issued.

The Genocide Convention to which Israel is a signatory was created because of the Holocaust, so the pro-Israel movement attempting to defend its conduct against such accusations under the Rome Statute by incorrectly claiming false jurisdiction may just be the peak of "embarrassing" hypocrisy. Palestine has been UN-recognized since 2012 & a state-level signatory to the Rome Statute since the P.A. signed it in 2015, & there's no "ICC jurisdiction applies only to UN members" provision of the Rome Statute, granted that unlike the ICJ, the ICC isn't even a UN organ! And either the ICC can investigate alleged crimes committed in the territory of member-states even when the act of directing those alleged crimes to be committed took place in the physical territory of a non-signatory to the Rome Statute, or else Putin's arrest warrant is just as deficient as the pending application for Bibi & Gallant. Just because terrorists like Yehya Sinwar, Mohammed Deif & Ismail Haniyeh routinely ignore international law & the rules of war doesn't entitle a democratic nation-state like Israel to also get to do so.

And if you don't believe me, then look no further than Bibi himself finally conceding that he has risked putting Israel on the path to becoming a pariah state after slowly but surely losing a lot of the support that the country righteously had on 10/7 because he allowed the operation to be too militarily incompetent & hell-bent on collectively punishing Gaza with genocide:

Whether or not the arrest warrants materialize, they have already had an effect. It is impossible to detach them from the postponement of any move to start the evacuation of Palestinian civilians as a prelude to the Rafah operation, and the sudden willingness of Netanyahu to accept an Egyptian proposal for a hostage agreement that will include the restoration of freedom of movement in Gaza and, more than anything else, the increasingly open actions by Israel to restore supply lines into Gaza after long months of obstruction.

Israeli officials admit that these are now directly connected to the government's urgent efforts to fend off arrest warrants.

It's part of a wider trend of belated realization that the costs of this war on the international front could become intolerable, whether for Israel as a country or for certain Israeli individuals. And while many, perhaps even a majority, of Israelis don't particularly care if Netanyahu (and Mrs. Netanyahu) might have to give up his penchant for state-funded travel overseas, this isn't just about him.

That doesn't exactly sound like the Israeli political & security establishment is currently "ignor[ing the ICC] in every truly meaningful sense as far as the conflict goes and rightly so."

1) Israel is not committing genocide in Gaza.  This is simply an objective fact and claiming it is committing genocide is about as credible as claiming that 1 + 1 = eleventy-hunteen.  With all due respect, claiming Israel is committing genocide in Gaza simply isn’t a reasonable enough position to merit being taken seriously except in the sense of refuting misinformation and inaccurate claims.

2) Israel never had widespread international support right after 10/7, this is simply revisionist history.  Almost immediately after 10/7, there was a loud onslaught on increasingly aggressive demands for an immediate unconditional ceasefire and vague threats of serious consequences if Israel responded militarily.  

3) Regarding the Israeli military and political establishment ignoring the ICC, we’ll see.  Every day there is a new story about one side reviewing someone or another’s proposal.  I’ll believe it when I see it, especially since Egypt has been an almost comically bad-faith mediator, routinely showing completely different proposals to each side and falsely claiming the other side already signed off on it.  

4) There is no such thing as Palestine right now and the PA has no authority to sign anything.  The West Bank and Gaza Strip are currently part of Israel.  The ICC has no jurisdiction, regardless of whether the UN felt like playing pretend in 2012 or the PA’s imaginary government signed the Rome Statute on behalf of a non-existent “country.”

5) I’m okay with the Putin warrant as a way for the international community to thumb its nose at Putin  and an excuse to further inconvenience him, but I don’t think they have jurisdiction in the Russia-Ukraine war either.  That said, I don’t really care too much either because Russia is an American enemy engaging in a genocidal war of aggression.  Sure, the warrant on Putin is technically deficient and the ICC had no jurisdiction supporting its issuance, but also…you know…who cares?

The World Wars are precisely why we have international institutions, including legal ones. The fact that international law is more honored in the breach isn’t an argument against its necessity.

For better or worse, the ICC is a joke and at best a decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously until it engaged in anti-Israel virtue signaling.  Whatever one thinks of the merits of the idea behind the organization, this much is true.

I'm sure the Congolese, Ugandan, Sudanese, Malian, and Central African military and political figures who are or very recently were in custody due to the ICC would disagree. Dislike it all you want, but the ICC is one of the few organizations that has ever actually done something about enforcing justice for perpetrators crimes against humanity. I'd think its the only one that has done so across multiple conflicts. Its statements on this (and other conflicts, like its warrant against Putin) are newsworthy and widely reported because its record gives it a moral authority regarding war crimes that both Israel and Hamas lack. If it really was a "decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously" its statements would have been ignored like the vast majority of the statements made about this conflicts by no-name organizations have been.

I mean, they will be ignored in every truly meaningful sense as far as the conflict goes and rightly so.  It has no jurisdiction and is simply embarrassing itself.  And that’s assuming the warrants are even issued.

I mean you still didn't provide an answer of how to handle such war criminals. The ones I provided examples of were technically not handled by the ICC but specific tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, but the ICC was created to avoid having to convene such tribunals for every conflict. It definitely wouldn't be done now and indicting Russians over Ukraine, or the Hamas leaders.

Specific tribunals are far better than the ICC for this sort of thing imo.

[Ancestral Republican]

At this point, is it fair to say people who are still defending Bibi are "bitter enders"? If your devotion to one terrible man has inspired you to attack the world's institutions of justice and international cooperation, consider stepping back and conducting a thorough internal reevaluation.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

At this point, is it fair to say people who are still defending Bibi are "bitter enders"? If your devotion to one terrible man has inspired you to attack the world's institutions of justice and international cooperation, consider stepping back and conducting a thorough internal reevaluation.

Thing is, a lot of the people who oppose the ICC here are definitely not Bibi fans.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

At this point, is it fair to say people who are still defending Bibi are "bitter enders"? If your devotion to one terrible man has inspired you to attack the world's institutions of justice and international cooperation, consider stepping back and conducting a thorough internal reevaluation.

Thing is, a lot of the people who oppose the ICC here are definitely not Bibi fans.

Yeah, I’ve been vocally criticizing Netanyahu for over a decade.  He can’t go to prison for corruption fast enough as far as I’m concerned.  

[Ancestral Republican]

At this point, is it fair to say people who are still defending Bibi are "bitter enders"? If your devotion to one terrible man has inspired you to attack the world's institutions of justice and international cooperation, consider stepping back and conducting a thorough internal reevaluation.

Thing is, a lot of the people who oppose the ICC here are definitely not Bibi fans.

Yeah, I’ve been vocally criticizing Netanyahu for over a decade.  He can’t go to prison for corruption fast enough as far as I’m concerned.  

Then your decision to go to bat for him here and elsewhere is baffling. Particularly when even pro-Israel American Dems (like Schumer) have gotten fed up with him and called for change (you called Fetterman a 'good man' for isolating himself on this issue) and when even folks in his own government are getting tired of his refusal to commit to a plan in Palestine.
This is specific to Bibi - I refuse to believe the disastrous mismanagement of this military operation, high civilian casualty count and its quagmire-like quality were inevitable. He has been worse than corrupt - he, as I've said before, has actively quashed efforts for peace by cultivating Hamas and opposing the two state solution (gambling that the former would stop the latter.) His rhetoric and that of other right wingers led to the assassination of Israel's leader in the 90s because they opposed such peace efforts.
While Hamas' leaders (and Qatar) get the biggest blame for the horrific terrorist attack against the Jewish people in October, I hold Bibi responsible for helping them gain power and resisting peace efforts, and for the aforementioned disastrous failure of a military operation that quickly isolated Israel on the global stage. He has intimated that he will not hold an election at any point for the duration of the war despite his cratered popularity, showing that he has an impetus to continue it indefinitely.
Bibi is not synonymous with Israel. If I were a voter there today I would call to hand him over. Then maybe the country can finally move forward with someone more competent at the helm who has an interest in actually resolving this situation.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

At this point, is it fair to say people who are still defending Bibi are "bitter enders"? If your devotion to one terrible man has inspired you to attack the world's institutions of justice and international cooperation, consider stepping back and conducting a thorough internal reevaluation.

Thing is, a lot of the people who oppose the ICC here are definitely not Bibi fans.

Yeah, I’ve been vocally criticizing Netanyahu for over a decade.  He can’t go to prison for corruption fast enough as far as I’m concerned.  

Then your decision to go to bat for him here and elsewhere is baffling. Particularly when even pro-Israel American Dems (like Schumer) have gotten fed up with him and called for change (you called Fetterman a 'good man' for isolating himself on this issue) and when even folks in his own government are getting tired of his refusal to commit to a plan in Palestine.
This is specific to Bibi - I refuse to believe the disastrous mismanagement of this military operation, high civilian casualty count and its quagmire-like quality were inevitable. He has been worse than corrupt - he, as I've said before, has actively quashed efforts for peace by cultivating Hamas and opposing the two state solution (gambling that the former would stop the latter.) His rhetoric and that of other right wingers led to the assassination of Israel's leader in the 90s because they opposed such peace efforts.
While Hamas' leaders (and Qatar) get the biggest blame for the horrific terrorist attack against the Jewish people in October, I hold Bibi responsible for helping them gain power and resisting peace efforts, and for the aforementioned disastrous failure of a military operation that quickly isolated Israel on the global stage. He has intimated that he will not hold an election at any point for the duration of the war despite his cratered popularity, showing that he has an impetus to continue it indefinitely.
Bibi is not synonymous with Israel. If I were a voter there today I would call to hand him over. Then maybe the country can finally move forward with someone more competent at the helm who has an interest in actually resolving this situation.

The reason so many people who hate Bibi are still opposed to handing him over is because it would acknowledge ICC jurisdiction over Israelis, which could easily lead to Gantz being indicted - or worse, random Israeli soldiers or citizens - and Israel would have a far weaker leg to stand on in demanding those charges not be pursued.

Netanyahu needs to go to prison in Israel for corruption and possibly dereliction of duty.

[Ancestral Republican]

At this point, is it fair to say people who are still defending Bibi are "bitter enders"? If your devotion to one terrible man has inspired you to attack the world's institutions of justice and international cooperation, consider stepping back and conducting a thorough internal reevaluation.

Thing is, a lot of the people who oppose the ICC here are definitely not Bibi fans.

Yeah, I’ve been vocally criticizing Netanyahu for over a decade.  He can’t go to prison for corruption fast enough as far as I’m concerned.  

Then your decision to go to bat for him here and elsewhere is baffling. Particularly when even pro-Israel American Dems (like Schumer) have gotten fed up with him and called for change (you called Fetterman a 'good man' for isolating himself on this issue) and when even folks in his own government are getting tired of his refusal to commit to a plan in Palestine.
This is specific to Bibi - I refuse to believe the disastrous mismanagement of this military operation, high civilian casualty count and its quagmire-like quality were inevitable. He has been worse than corrupt - he, as I've said before, has actively quashed efforts for peace by cultivating Hamas and opposing the two state solution (gambling that the former would stop the latter.) His rhetoric and that of other right wingers led to the assassination of Israel's leader in the 90s because they opposed such peace efforts.
While Hamas' leaders (and Qatar) get the biggest blame for the horrific terrorist attack against the Jewish people in October, I hold Bibi responsible for helping them gain power and resisting peace efforts, and for the aforementioned disastrous failure of a military operation that quickly isolated Israel on the global stage. He has intimated that he will not hold an election at any point for the duration of the war despite his cratered popularity, showing that he has an impetus to continue it indefinitely.
Bibi is not synonymous with Israel. If I were a voter there today I would call to hand him over. Then maybe the country can finally move forward with someone more competent at the helm who has an interest in actually resolving this situation.

The reason so many people who hate Bibi are still opposed to handing him over is because it would acknowledge ICC jurisdiction over Israelis, which could easily lead to Gantz being indicted - or worse, random Israeli soldiers or citizens - and Israel would have a far weaker leg to stand on in demanding those charges not be pursued.

Netanyahu needs to go to prison in Israel for corruption and possibly dereliction of duty.

That's a fair view. I don't think the ICC putting Netanyahu on trial would lead to widespread prosecution of Israeli figures though. That seems like a slippery slope argument, these warrants are still going to be issued on an individual basis. Bibi is both uniquely bad and uniquely responsible for the direction of his government.

[JGibson]

1) Israel is not committing genocide in Gaza.  This is simply an objective fact and claiming it is committing genocide is about as credible as claiming that 1 + 1 = eleventy-hunteen.  With all due respect, claiming Israel is committing genocide in Gaza simply isn’t a reasonable enough position to merit being taken seriously except in the sense of refuting misinformation and inaccurate claims.

2) Israel never had widespread international support right after 10/7, this is simply revisionist history.  Almost immediately after 10/7, there was a loud onslaught on increasingly aggressive demands for an immediate unconditional ceasefire and vague threats of serious consequences if Israel responded militarily.  

3) Regarding the Israeli military and political establishment ignoring the ICC, we’ll see.  Every day there is a new story about one side reviewing someone or another’s proposal.  I’ll believe it when I see it, especially since Egypt has been an almost comically bad-faith mediator, routinely showing completely different proposals to each side and falsely claiming the other side already signed off on it.  

4) There is no such thing as Palestine right now and the PA has no authority to sign anything.  The West Bank and Gaza Strip are currently part of Israel.  The ICC has no jurisdiction, regardless of whether the UN felt like playing pretend in 2012 or the PA’s imaginary government signed the Rome Statute on behalf of a non-existent “country.”

5) I’m okay with the Putin warrant as a way for the international community to thumb its nose at Putin  and an excuse to further inconvenience him, but I don’t think they have jurisdiction in the Russia-Ukraine war either.  That said, I don’t really care too much either because Russia is an American enemy engaging in a genocidal war of aggression.  Sure, the warrant on Putin is technically deficient and the ICC had no jurisdiction supporting its issuance, but also…you know…who cares?

Couple of points to push back on:
1: Israel Apartheid State IS committing genocidal acts against Palestinians in Gaza.

4: There IS such a thing as Palestine, as 143 UN nations have recognized it. It's just that West Bank and Gaza are illegally occupied by Israel.

[Brittain33]

Couple of points to push back on:
1: Israel Apartheid State IS committing genocidal acts against Palestinians in Gaza.

No, it isn’t, the state of Israel is fighting a war against Hamas in a dense urban environment after Hamas invaded Israel and killed 1,200 civilians on October 7. It’s not a genocide any more than Gaza was the Warsaw Ghetto, Israel firing back at Hamas soldiers = Nazis operating gas chambers, or whatever ghoulish appropriation people can dream up to try to make this ugly, tragic, useless war into something it isn’t.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

At this point, is it fair to say people who are still defending Bibi are "bitter enders"? If your devotion to one terrible man has inspired you to attack the world's institutions of justice and international cooperation, consider stepping back and conducting a thorough internal reevaluation.

Thing is, a lot of the people who oppose the ICC here are definitely not Bibi fans.

Yeah, I’ve been vocally criticizing Netanyahu for over a decade.  He can’t go to prison for corruption fast enough as far as I’m concerned.  

Then your decision to go to bat for him here and elsewhere is baffling. Particularly when even pro-Israel American Dems (like Schumer) have gotten fed up with him and called for change (you called Fetterman a 'good man' for isolating himself on this issue) and when even folks in his own government are getting tired of his refusal to commit to a plan in Palestine.
This is specific to Bibi - I refuse to believe the disastrous mismanagement of this military operation, high civilian casualty count and its quagmire-like quality were inevitable. He has been worse than corrupt - he, as I've said before, has actively quashed efforts for peace by cultivating Hamas and opposing the two state solution (gambling that the former would stop the latter.) His rhetoric and that of other right wingers led to the assassination of Israel's leader in the 90s because they opposed such peace efforts.
While Hamas' leaders (and Qatar) get the biggest blame for the horrific terrorist attack against the Jewish people in October, I hold Bibi responsible for helping them gain power and resisting peace efforts, and for the aforementioned disastrous failure of a military operation that quickly isolated Israel on the global stage. He has intimated that he will not hold an election at any point for the duration of the war despite his cratered popularity, showing that he has an impetus to continue it indefinitely.
Bibi is not synonymous with Israel. If I were a voter there today I would call to hand him over. Then maybe the country can finally move forward with someone more competent at the helm who has an interest in actually resolving this situation.

The reason so many people who hate Bibi are still opposed to handing him over is because it would acknowledge ICC jurisdiction over Israelis, which could easily lead to Gantz being indicted - or worse, random Israeli soldiers or citizens - and Israel would have a far weaker leg to stand on in demanding those charges not be pursued.

Netanyahu needs to go to prison in Israel for corruption and possibly dereliction of duty.

That's a fair view. I don't think the ICC putting Netanyahu on trial would lead to widespread prosecution of Israeli figures though. That seems like a slippery slope argument, these warrants are still going to be issued on an individual basis. Bibi is both uniquely bad and uniquely responsible for the direction of his government.

I guess part of this really comes down to you trusting the ICC to act in good-faith more than Ray and I do. 

[afleitch]

https://twitter.com/yuval_abraham/status/1795431855283740884

And from the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/spying-hacking-intimidation-israel-war-icc-exposed

'Now, an investigation by the Guardian and the Israeli-based magazines +972 and Local Call can reveal how Israel has run an almost decade-long secret “war” against the court. The country deployed its intelligence agencies to surveil, hack, pressure, smear and allegedly threaten senior ICC staff in an effort to derail the court’s inquiries.'