America is falling apart

[All Along The Watchtower]

Things may be bleak or at least seem bleak, yes. Not that that's unique to the US or that the US is even in comparatively bad shape.

Better here than Russia or China. Democracy > dictatorship (normal, partially sane)

[Sol]

We will be okay.

If by "we" you mean the upper-middle class kids who are the bulk of this forum's constituency, than sure.

[Horus]

We will be okay.

If by "we" you mean the upper-middle class kids who are the bulk of this forum's constituency, than sure.

Most people outside of that category will also be okay. While we certainly need universal healthcare and a more generous welfare state, this is still one of the best countries to live in.

Crime is decreasing, life expectancy is going back up, and the economy while not great is worse almost everywhere else.

[MasterJedi]

Maybe I went a little too far, but I'm frustrated because America has no reason to be falling apart. Young people aren't getting drafted for an unjust war, people aren't pushing around carts full of worthless currency unable to afford bread. The nation is falling apart because people are believing stupid sh-t on the internet. It's not very compelling in my opinion.

America is falling apart because we have no idea who we are anymore. We have no common enemy like the Soviet Union to define ourselves in opposition to. Big banks and corporations and the government can't be used an excuse when the economy tanks because the economy has been great for the last few decades. We have no common system of values because Christianity has fallen out of favor among a significant percentage of the population. We're formed our own identities, and decided to make enemies amongst each other. Is that stupidity, or just a natural human inclination to find belonging?

We should all have a common enemy, the pastors, even the crazy Goldwater knew the lengths they would go through to destroy the America as we know it.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Maybe I went a little too far, but I'm frustrated because America has no reason to be falling apart. Young people aren't getting drafted for an unjust war, people aren't pushing around carts full of worthless currency unable to afford bread. The nation is falling apart because people are believing stupid sh-t on the internet. It's not very compelling in my opinion.

Not to go all Godwin but compare the conditions in Germany and Italy (two countries that at the time didn’t have a rich democratic tradition) that led to Hitler and Mussolini’s rises and compare it to the conditions we have on the the ground today and it’s baffling that people are so upset with the status quo they might seriously return to power a guy who tried to do a coup last time and has literally said the phrase “I will be a dictator on Day 1” on the campaign trail

[All Along The Watchtower]

We will be okay.

If by "we" you mean the upper-middle class kids who are the bulk of this forum's constituency, than sure.

Gonna elect Atlas Forum to a seat in Congress

(I’m sorry)

[Associate Justice PiT]

Maybe I went a little too far, but I'm frustrated because America has no reason to be falling apart. Young people aren't getting drafted for an unjust war, people aren't pushing around carts full of worthless currency unable to afford bread. The nation is falling apart because people are believing stupid sh-t on the internet. It's not very compelling in my opinion.

America is falling apart because we have no idea who we are anymore. We have no common enemy like the Soviet Union to define ourselves in opposition to. Big banks and corporations and the government can't be used an excuse when the economy tanks because the economy has been great for the last few decades. We have no common system of values because Christianity has fallen out of favor among a significant percentage of the population. We're formed our own identities, and decided to make enemies amongst each other. Is that stupidity, or just a natural human inclination to find belonging?

We should all have a common enemy, the pastors, even the crazy Goldwater knew the lengths they would go through to destroy the America as we know it.

     While there are definitely wolves like Joel Osteen who cause a lot of damage, just saying "the pastors" sounds like something one would read on r/atheism.

[Beet]

If America is falling apart it is because having a culture and society is fundamentally at odds with capitalism, in which people are nothing more than resources, cogs in the capitalist machine. Instead of a real culture, we have cultural products which are sold for money. Our culture, essentially, is money. And this creates tremendous alienation, naturally, between people and any idea of a 'nation'. This tension has always been around, but it is becoming more intense as capitalism pervades American life more and more thoroughly.

Hence, people easily buy into bread and circuses such as "culture wars" and partisan politics that serve to keep the masses divided over issues that have the illusion of deep meaning but are actually relatively low stakes and non-threatening to the status quo. External adversaries like China are needed to give people a sense of meaning and struggle that would otherwise be missing. In the meantime, the capitalism system continues on and the rich and powerful become more rich and powerful, while everyone else fights over the scraps.

[Red Velvet]

If America is falling apart it is because having a culture and society is fundamentally at odds with capitalism, in which people are nothing more than resources, cogs in the capitalist machine. Instead of a real culture, we have cultural products which are sold for money. Our culture, essentially, is money. And this creates tremendous alienation, naturally, between people and any idea of a 'nation'. This tension has always been around, but it is becoming more intense as capitalism pervades American life more and more thoroughly.

Hence, people easily buy into bread and circuses such as "culture wars" and partisan politics that serve to keep the masses divided over issues that have the illusion of deep meaning but are actually relatively low stakes and non-threatening to the status quo. External adversaries like China are needed to give people a sense of meaning and struggle that would otherwise be missing. In the meantime, the capitalism system continues on and the rich and powerful become more rich and powerful, while everyone else fights over the scraps.

Agree that USA’s “social cohesion” is the aspiration of better opportunities and quality of life (all related to money as you say) instead of one unified culture that binds people together. Which eventually is way more of an individual aspiration and inspiration than a collective one.

I don’t think US lacks culture though, it’s more that it’s widely segregated between different bubbles and that creates different and separated “Americas” depending on which cultural bubble you’re inserted in.

Very different from Brazil/LatAm logic where we get all these different influences too characteristic of immigrant countries but we smash and crack them all, then mix it all together in the same soup to form something inherently Brazilian and one single national culture idea that all can identify with regardless of their background.

That’s why for instance, all Brazilians can have fun with the Portuguese when complaining about colonization and gold robbery even if they’re descendants of these same colonizers, as they will still feel more inherently culturally connected to Brazil and the “mixed multicultural idea” it represents and that they were inserted in from the moment they were born.

Carnaval and Samba for instance, has influences of all of Portuguese, Indigenous and African cultures while still not being really any of those.

“Macunaíma”, a classic from Brazilian literature we have to read during school classes that later became a movie, is about trying to characterize an unified Brazilian identity through its protagonist who is an Indigenous man that is born Black and becomes White, everything all together at same time. Something that under US cultural lenses, I imagine it would sound very offensive. External cultural influences are massively brought in, consumed and reinterpreted through national lenses to create its own “Brazilian version”.

When watching US cultural products, it’s much harder for me to get what is the sense of what’s really being an American to you guys. Because it’s like it’s something very different from each person, the one common trope usually repeated is the “freedom” discourse that is related to both economics (neoliberal capitalism = you can get whatever you want) and social behavior (social liberalism = you can do and be whatever you want) but that seems way more directed to individual goals as I said than something that makes you feel connected to your neighbor under the same cultural umbrella.

But all this is more related to US foundation and history of segregation (as it was colonized by the British, inheriting their perspective) more than necessarily tied with Capitalism and its complications tbh, which is something present everywhere. I believe the excessive focus on Capitalism as a mantra for national pride may have been simply a way to fabricate a narrative to try to glue in people who are looking for the same goals and need each other for it, compensating the lack of that unified cultural glue while also stimulating a national narrative that is based on the idea of production and individual prospering.

[Horus]

If America is falling apart it is because having a culture and society is fundamentally at odds with capitalism, in which people are nothing more than resources, cogs in the capitalist machine. Instead of a real culture, we have cultural products which are sold for money. Our culture, essentially, is money. And this creates tremendous alienation, naturally, between people and any idea of a 'nation'. This tension has always been around, but it is becoming more intense as capitalism pervades American life more and more thoroughly.

Hence, people easily buy into bread and circuses such as "culture wars" and partisan politics that serve to keep the masses divided over issues that have the illusion of deep meaning but are actually relatively low stakes and non-threatening to the status quo. External adversaries like China are needed to give people a sense of meaning and struggle that would otherwise be missing. In the meantime, the capitalism system continues on and the rich and powerful become more rich and powerful, while everyone else fights over the scraps.

Agree that USA’s “social cohesion” is the aspiration of better opportunities and quality of life (all related to money as you say) instead of one unified culture that binds people together. Which eventually is way more of an individual aspiration and inspiration than a collective one.

I don’t think US lacks culture though, it’s more that it’s widely segregated between different bubbles and that creates different and separated “Americas” depending on which cultural bubble you’re inserted in.

Very different from Brazil/LatAm logic where we get all these different influences too characteristic of immigrant countries but we smash and crack them all, then mix it all together in the same soup to form something inherently Brazilian and one single national culture idea that all can identify with regardless of their background.

That’s why for instance, all Brazilians can have fun with the Portuguese when complaining about colonization and gold robbery even if they’re descendants of these same colonizers, as they will still feel more inherently culturally connected to Brazil and the “mixed multicultural idea” it represents and that they were inserted in from the moment they were born.

Carnaval and Samba for instance, has influences of all of Portuguese, Indigenous and African cultures while still not being really any of those.

“Macunaíma”, a classic from Brazilian literature we have to read during school classes that later became a movie, is about trying to characterize an unified Brazilian identity through its protagonist who is an Indigenous man that is born Black and becomes White, everything all together at same time. Something that under US cultural lenses, I imagine it would sound very offensive. External cultural influences are massively brought in, consumed and reinterpreted through national lenses to create its own “Brazilian version”.

When watching US cultural products, it’s much harder for me to get what is the sense of what’s really being an American to you guys. Because it’s like it’s something very different from each person, the one common trope usually repeated is the “freedom” discourse that is related to both economics (neoliberal capitalism = you can get whatever you want) and social behavior (social liberalism = you can do and be whatever you want) but that seems way more directed to individual goals as I said than something that makes you feel connected to your neighbor under the same cultural umbrella.

But all this is more related to US foundation and history of segregation (as it was colonized by the British, inheriting their perspective) more than necessarily tied with Capitalism and its complications tbh, which is something present everywhere. I believe the excessive focus on Capitalism as a mantra for national pride may have been simply a way to fabricate a narrative to try to glue in people who are looking for the same goals and need each other for it, compensating the lack of that unified cultural glue while also stimulating a national narrative that is based on the idea of production and individual prospering.

Left wing nationalism would fix a lot of this.

Also, the people in Kentucky and West Virginia who put "American" on the census are onto something, as was Raven Symone when she said "I'm not black or white, I'm American."

We need more of that mentality. A lot more.

[OSR stands with Israel]

If America is falling apart it is because having a culture and society is fundamentally at odds with capitalism, in which people are nothing more than resources, cogs in the capitalist machine. Instead of a real culture, we have cultural products which are sold for money. Our culture, essentially, is money. And this creates tremendous alienation, naturally, between people and any idea of a 'nation'. This tension has always been around, but it is becoming more intense as capitalism pervades American life more and more thoroughly.

Hence, people easily buy into bread and circuses such as "culture wars" and partisan politics that serve to keep the masses divided over issues that have the illusion of deep meaning but are actually relatively low stakes and non-threatening to the status quo. External adversaries like China are needed to give people a sense of meaning and struggle that would otherwise be missing. In the meantime, the capitalism system continues on and the rich and powerful become more rich and powerful, while everyone else fights over the scraps.

Agree that USA’s “social cohesion” is the aspiration of better opportunities and quality of life (all related to money as you say) instead of one unified culture that binds people together. Which eventually is way more of an individual aspiration and inspiration than a collective one.

I don’t think US lacks culture though, it’s more that it’s widely segregated between different bubbles and that creates different and separated “Americas” depending on which cultural bubble you’re inserted in.

Very different from Brazil/LatAm logic where we get all these different influences too characteristic of immigrant countries but we smash and crack them all, then mix it all together in the same soup to form something inherently Brazilian and one single national culture idea that all can identify with regardless of their background.

That’s why for instance, all Brazilians can have fun with the Portuguese when complaining about colonization and gold robbery even if they’re descendants of these same colonizers, as they will still feel more inherently culturally connected to Brazil and the “mixed multicultural idea” it represents and that they were inserted in from the moment they were born.

Carnaval and Samba for instance, has influences of all of Portuguese, Indigenous and African cultures while still not being really any of those.

“Macunaíma”, a classic from Brazilian literature we have to read during school classes that later became a movie, is about trying to characterize an unified Brazilian identity through its protagonist who is an Indigenous man that is born Black and becomes White, everything all together at same time. Something that under US cultural lenses, I imagine it would sound very offensive. External cultural influences are massively brought in, consumed and reinterpreted through national lenses to create its own “Brazilian version”.

When watching US cultural products, it’s much harder for me to get what is the sense of what’s really being an American to you guys. Because it’s like it’s something very different from each person, the one common trope usually repeated is the “freedom” discourse that is related to both economics (neoliberal capitalism = you can get whatever you want) and social behavior (social liberalism = you can do and be whatever you want) but that seems way more directed to individual goals as I said than something that makes you feel connected to your neighbor under the same cultural umbrella.

But all this is more related to US foundation and history of segregation (as it was colonized by the British, inheriting their perspective) more than necessarily tied with Capitalism and its complications tbh, which is something present everywhere. I believe the excessive focus on Capitalism as a mantra for national pride may have been simply a way to fabricate a narrative to try to glue in people who are looking for the same goals and need each other for it, compensating the lack of that unified cultural glue while also stimulating a national narrative that is based on the idea of production and individual prospering.

Left wing nationalism would fix a lot of this.

Also, the people in Kentucky and West Virginia who put "American" on the census are onto something, as was Raven Symone when she said "I'm not black or white, I'm American."

We need more of that mentality. A lot more.

America has never had the sorta class politics you guys want outside the new deal era and that the exception not the rule . The reason that was formed was because we faced a far far worse economic situation than anything we do today .

[Red Velvet]

America has never had the sorta class politics you guys want outside the new deal era and that the exception not the rule . The reason that was formed was because we faced a far far worse economic situation than anything we do today .

So you’re saying that left-wing politics are better when the situation is bad and right-wing politics are better when the situation is good.

Which means, poorer countries are correct to pursue Left-Wing economics to fix or minimize problems. And also that US itself had to base itself on Left-Wing economics in order to build the economic foundation of today and it will inevitably return to a more leftist consensus scenario in the future after years of unchanged neoliberalism result in stagnation and economic insecurity.

[OSR stands with Israel]

America has never had the sorta class politics you guys want outside the new deal era and that the exception not the rule . The reason that was formed was because we faced a far far worse economic situation than anything we do today .

So you’re saying that left-wing politics are better when the situation is bad and right-wing politics are better when the situation is good.

Which means, poorer countries are correct to pursue Left-Wing economics to fix or minimize problems. And also that US itself had to base itself on Left-Wing economics in order to build the economic foundation of today and it will inevitably return to a more leftist consensus scenario in the future after years of unchanged neoliberalism result in stagnation and economic insecurity.

FDR is no where near as Left Wing as people hype him up to be though, as the vast majority of the welfare state was not created until the 1960s. In fact The vast majority of new deal policies are still in place, and have remained in place ever since FDR implemented them so really the debate has always been over the Great Society not the New Deal.

What Left Wingers want to do is not New Deal 2.0 but rather Great Society 2.0 and doing the latter is far more controversial than the former. Biden's greatest successes were when he pushed bills that more resemble the new deal than great society such as the BIF Act , CHIPS act, and even the IRA Bill to an extent and his pitfalls have been when he tried to push for stuff like student loan debt forgiveness, free preschool etc.

[Burke Bro]

America has never had the sorta class politics you guys want outside the new deal era and that the exception not the rule . The reason that was formed was because we faced a far far worse economic situation than anything we do today .

So you’re saying that left-wing politics are better when the situation is bad and right-wing politics are better when the situation is good.

Which means, poorer countries are correct to pursue Left-Wing economics to fix or minimize problems. And also that US itself had to base itself on Left-Wing economics in order to build the economic foundation of today and it will inevitably return to a more leftist consensus scenario in the future after years of unchanged neoliberalism result in stagnation and economic insecurity.

At the foundation of American economic stability is its democracy. Few countries (especially those that are poor today), have a quarter millennia history of democratic norms. Without those norms constraining the behavior of politicians, and a large number of people who feel as though they have nothing to lose, left wing movements in poorer countries become a draw for demagogues who promise a big welfare state but who have no long term plan for economic development and are only concerned with staying in power. I would think that as a South American, you’d be familiar with this pattern.

[Red Velvet]

America has never had the sorta class politics you guys want outside the new deal era and that the exception not the rule . The reason that was formed was because we faced a far far worse economic situation than anything we do today .

So you’re saying that left-wing politics are better when the situation is bad and right-wing politics are better when the situation is good.

Which means, poorer countries are correct to pursue Left-Wing economics to fix or minimize problems. And also that US itself had to base itself on Left-Wing economics in order to build the economic foundation of today and it will inevitably return to a more leftist consensus scenario in the future after years of unchanged neoliberalism result in stagnation and economic insecurity.

At the foundation of American economic stability is its democracy. Few countries (especially those that are poor today), have a quarter millennia history of democratic norms. Without those norms constraining the behavior of politicians, and a large number of people who feel as though they have nothing to lose, left wing movements in poorer countries become a draw for demagogues who promise a big welfare state but who have no long term plan for economic development and are only concerned with staying in power. I would think that as a South American, you’d be familiar with this pattern.

Demagogues exist in both Right and Left movements, because what you bring up isn’t about ideological beliefs themselves, but instrumentalizing them for political gain whatever they are. And it naturally exists everywhere regardless of logic.

What exactly do you think Trump scapegoating literally everyone for the country problems is? With the number of immigrants literally going up during his term hahaha

From my background since that apparently matters to you, Centrism is the ideological side most associated to political opportunism because “Big Center” in congress here stands for literally nothing other then their own power, playing both sides according to what will politically benefit them more.

The Right is more passionate but their chosen representatives are nothing but more radical extensions of the Big Center, with no real long-term plan and still more concerned about their power, playing lip-service to their base. The Left in general is way more ideological AND pragmatic, with a good chunk that has a long-term project but still that doesn’t mean every individual can be generalized like that, with exceptions in all camps.