Is it ever ok to call someone a "self-hating jew"?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

?

[Horus]

Almost never. You'd have to get to Bobby Fischer level for the term to be at all accurate. The people calling Jonathan Glazer a self hater for his phenomenal speech last night are absolutely shameful.

[DaleCooper]

Of course.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Of course.

Even as a non Jewish person? To me that is sort of grotesque, like when whites call black people Uncle Toms. Who am I, as a gentile, to question the identity of an actual Jewish person? Even if they do have some kind of psychological hang up around their identity, that's between them and their therapist.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Of course.

Even as a non Jewish person? To me that is sort of grotesque, like when whites call black people Uncle Toms. Who am I, as a gentile, to question the identity of an actual Jewish person? Even if they do have some kind of psychological hang up around their identity, that's between them and their therapist.

The thing about that is that Uncle Tom in the novel is intentionally written to be a very sympathetic and loving character. Kind of a weird epithet.

[SWE]

Of course.

Even as a non Jewish person? To me that is sort of grotesque, like when whites call black people Uncle Toms. Who am I, as a gentile, to question the identity of an actual Jewish person? Even if they do have some kind of psychological hang up around their identity, that's between them and their therapist.

The thing about that is that Uncle Tom in the novel is intentionally written to be a very sympathetic and loving character. Kind of a weird epithet.

It comes from retellings of the story in the Jim Crow era - minstrel shows would depict Uncle Tom not as he's written in the text but as someone who was happy to be a slave

[KaiserDave]

I find it to be totally unacceptable in almost any context. (Jewish)

[Progressive Pessimist]

Only if you are actually Jewish. And even then, the circumstances have to be pretty specific to be justifiable.

[VBM]

You can argue the circumstances are very rare, but it seems stupid to me to say that a gentile can never ever accuse someone of being a self-hating Jew. If some Jewish person called for the extermination of Israel, why would it be wrong for me to call them a self-hating Jew?

[Antonio the Sixth]

It's generally lazy and misses the point. There are Jewish people who harbor antisemitic attitudes (just as there are women who harbor misogynistc attitudes, or POC who harbor racist attitudes... being an oppressed category is never a shield against the ideologies that justify that oppression) but that often has very little to do with actual self-hatred, which is an entirely different psychological phenomenon.

If you want to call someone an antisemite, call them an antisemite, regardless of their own ethnicity/religion. I have no qualms about calling Eric Zemmour an antisemite, for example.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

This thread reminded me of when I read about Gilad Atzmon, a very sad and extreme case who has used the label to describe himself (comparable to Bobby Fischer, mentioned upthread).

[DaleCooper]

Of course.

Even as a non Jewish person? To me that is sort of grotesque, like when whites call black people Uncle Toms. Who am I, as a gentile, to question the identity of an actual Jewish person? Even if they do have some kind of psychological hang up around their identity, that's between them and their therapist.

Depending on the circumstances, I think it can work.

[Vosem]

Yeah, sure, sometimes. I've followed enough far-right links to the Unz Review and I'm not sure how else you'd classify Israel Shamir, or for that matter Ron Unz himself.

[buritobr]

I don't believe there are many self-hating jews. I believe that there are many conservative christians who are more pro Israel than an average non-israeli jew and try to "teach" their views on Israel to these jews.

[Santander]

No, because it implies self-hatred is a thing, and even if it was, that it is bad.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

As a general rule there are certain terms, insults and allusions that can be used within a particular group of people, but are best avoided by those outside said group. However, in this case, there are instances so extreme (some names have been mentioned already and I don't think they can be rationally disputed) that this little rule can be waived in their case.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Does Murray Rothbard count as one?

[PSOL]

Yes, just like it is acceptable to say Uncle Tom.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Yeah, sure, sometimes. I've followed enough far-right links to the Unz Review and I'm not sure how else you'd classify Israel Shamir, or for that matter Ron Unz himself.

I think the issue I have with it is that rather than arguing the substance of someone's points, you're speculating on the motivation why they claim to have that belief - it's essentially saying "obviously people in the in-group could never actually hold your beliefs legitimately, it's because you want to fit it or because you are psychologically malformed". With fisher (i know less about unz) he did seem to have some sort of mental illness that consumed him, but honestly even the word "self-hating" doesn't even seem to describe it.

The example I'm thinking of is Gerald Kaufman who clearly had a huge personal disconnect with the zionism he wanted (I'm pretty sure he always claimed he was Zionist at heart) with his extreme rejection and rhetoric against Israel. It's clearly complex, but I think we're on clearer ground talking about what exactly he said rather than speculating on the nature of his thoughts.

[dead0man]

do other groups self hate and are they ever referred to that way and is it a problem when they do?  There are probably some French people out there that aren't super keen on France, are they called self-hating Frenchies?  Do they get upset when called that?


or is this yet another thing that only affects Jews?

[lfromnj]

do other groups self hate and are they ever referred to that way and is it a problem when they do?  There are probably some French people out there that aren't super keen on France, are they called self-hating Frenchies?  Do they get upset when called that?


or is this yet another thing that only affects Jews?

Its fairly uncommon in history but in general liberal whites are a group that have a lot of self haters.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

do other groups self hate and are they ever referred to that way and is it a problem when they do?  There are probably some French people out there that aren't super keen on France, are they called self-hating Frenchies?  Do they get upset when called that?


or is this yet another thing that only affects Jews?

Isn't this the logic behind Uncle Tom/coconut accusations?

[dead0man]

do other groups self hate and are they ever referred to that way and is it a problem when they do?  There are probably some French people out there that aren't super keen on France, are they called self-hating Frenchies?  Do they get upset when called that?


or is this yet another thing that only affects Jews?

Isn't this the logic behind Uncle Tom/coconut accusations?

that's more about "acting white" than "self hate" isn't it?

[Vosem]

do other groups self hate and are they ever referred to that way and is it a problem when they do?  There are probably some French people out there that aren't super keen on France, are they called self-hating Frenchies?  Do they get upset when called that?


or is this yet another thing that only affects Jews?

I think it is a pretty common accusation to level at conservative black Americans that they are self-hating, but that's not something that really receives as much attention. (The examples I listed, Unz and Shamir, are both ethnically-Jewish Holocaust deniers, which is a position that we usually associate with anti-Semitism, though it is often hard to say what someone's motive is for holding a particular political or historical stance. I'm not sure that I would agree that 'self-hating' describes the stance of people whose anti-Zionism leads them to criticize pretty normal aspects of Jewish culture, like Kaufman; rather than self-hating I think people like this are just very alienated from the reality of modern Jewish culture.)

I think this is something that is discussed by Jews very often because Jews are big-time participants in online political debates

Does Murray Rothbard count as one?

What about Shneur Zalman? Frankly there is a long Jewish tradition of galaxy-brain support for openly anti-Semitic political figures on the grounds that 'the long-run effects of their policies would be good'. I'm not sure that's what's going on with either Holocaust denial or anti-Zionism, though (or that focusing on its anti-Jewish aspects is a good way of identifying precisely why anti-Zionism is so offensive).

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The example I'm thinking of is Gerald Kaufman who clearly had a huge personal disconnect with the zionism he wanted (I'm pretty sure he always claimed he was Zionist at heart) with his extreme rejection and rhetoric against Israel. It's clearly complex, but I think we're on clearer ground talking about what exactly he said rather than speculating on the nature of his thoughts.

With Kaufman there's also the really awkward extra issue that for the last few decades of his life he was clearly slowly succumbing to some sort of dementia (it was an open secret on the Parliamentary estate by the end) but because he had always had a rather sharp tongue alarm bells at some of the more disturbing things he said did not go off until quite late in the day, i.e. by the point at which the situation was painfully clear.