Illegal vs undocumented

[henster]

"Illegal immigrant" is fine. "Illegal" is not. There is a difference.

Not really, that's just more liberal word games.

I actually think him saying 'undocumented immigrant who murdered a college student' would be worse. I would think it'd be better to dissociate the murderer from what Dems prefer to call most immigrants, so call the bad apples illegal immigrants and everyone else undocumented.

[Horus]

He shouldn’t have apologized.

Why not? He offended a decent chunk of his base and it’s a very easy thing to make it better.

If accurate terminology offends you you should really grow a pair.

[DaleCooper]

Really disappointed to see any liberals going this direction, by the way. 2024 is not the time to start playing these games again. Agonizing over whether a murderer's feelings are hurt is a perfect example of why everyone hates these woke idiots. This is the kind of crap that cost Hillary 2016 and it's the kind of crap that almost cost Biden 2020. Let's please not gamble the country's future just so we can tell liberal college grads with Notorious RBG Funko Pops on their desks what they want to hear.

[7,052,770]

The majority of Democrats have no empathy for Laken Riley's family.  They have no empathy for any of the Angel Moms and Angel Dads whose children have died at the hands of illegal aliens.

That's awfully rich coming from the party who decided it would be good politically to have more Lakens, Angel Moms, and Angel Dads throughout 2024 rather than passing the bipartisan border bill. I mean, Trump openly and explicitly said to fail the bill so that he can run on the issue - that's not some kind of baseless assertion.

And if Republicans don't think the bill goes far enough (of course we know they all thought it was good enough until Trump "opened their eyes"), they could still pass it now, and then something else next year they turn out to be right about that. Better to try and accomplish something than intentionally fail and accomplish nothing, right?

[emailking]

Illegal as a noun makes it sound like their existence is illegal as opposed to their immigration status.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

Because it’s terrible optics given the context. It’s like when progressives freaked out when people misgendered that trans school shooter

Misgendering anyone is wrong, no matter what they did (and there's also the fact that it would literally be inaccurate reporting to misgender). Like come on, no one is suggesting that the trans shooter or the undocumented murderer be let go. They should both be in prison for the rest of their lives. But the only reason to deliberately misgender the shooter or call the undocumented murderer an "illegal" is because you want a socially acceptable excuse to vilify the groups that they are a part of.

Would you use the n-word to describe a Black criminal?

For a lot of people on this site minorities only get basic decency if we behave as they say we should.

[DaleCooper]

Because it’s terrible optics given the context. It’s like when progressives freaked out when people misgendered that trans school shooter

Misgendering anyone is wrong, no matter what they did (and there's also the fact that it would literally be inaccurate reporting to misgender). Like come on, no one is suggesting that the trans shooter or the undocumented murderer be let go. They should both be in prison for the rest of their lives. But the only reason to deliberately misgender the shooter or call the undocumented murderer an "illegal" is because you want a socially acceptable excuse to vilify the groups that they are a part of.

I don't want to risk starting a trans debate, but I want to say you've actually got it backwards on that school shooting story. All the talk about "gendering" was what led to inconsistent and misleading reporting. The most notable thing about that story wasn't even the transgender component, it was that for possibly the first time in American history a Columbine or Sandy Hook-esque school shooter wasn't a young man.

[Arizona Iced Tea]

Illegal as a noun makes it sound like their existence is illegal as opposed to their immigration status.

I'm pretty sure murder is illegal too.

[emailking]

Illegal as a noun makes it sound like their existence is illegal as opposed to their immigration status.

I'm pretty sure murder is illegal too.

That has nothing to do with it.

[politicallefty]

"Illegal immigrant" is fine. "Illegal" is not. There is a difference.

That's a distinction I've always made as well. I've actually always thought "illegal immigrant" was a softer term than what a lot of hardliners have used over the years (particularly "illegal alien").

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

Illegal as a noun makes it sound like their existence is illegal as opposed to their immigration status.

I'm pretty sure murder is illegal too.

That has nothing to do with it.

If you follow that logic that committed an illegal act makes you “illegal” then pretty much every American is illegal.

[emailking]

Illegal as a noun makes it sound like their existence is illegal as opposed to their immigration status.

I'm pretty sure murder is illegal too.

That has nothing to do with it.

If you follow that logic that committed an illegal act makes you “illegal” then pretty much every American is illegal.

Anybody who's gotten a speeding ticket is an illegal lol.

[The Economy is Getting Worse]

It probably won’t affect the election much, but it shows how big of a sociopath Biden is. First genocide and now apologizing to a murderer.

[Beet]

Saying someone is an illegal is a dehumanizing term. Biden did the right thing to apologize.

[Horus]

Saying someone is an illegal is a dehumanizing term. Biden did the right thing to apologize.

Dehumanizing cold blooded killers is okay, actually. The only other world leader who would balk at such a term is Trudeau - not good company.

[Beet]

Saying someone is an illegal is a dehumanizing term. Biden did the right thing to apologize.

Dehumanizing cold blooded killers is okay, actually. The only other world leader who would balk at such a term is Trudeau - not good company.

Yeah but he's doing it in the context of undocumented immigrants as a class. It works very much like a racial slur. And we would recognize racial slurs as unacceptable even when used against rapists and murderers because they implicate innocent people by implicitly grouping them together with the killer on the basis of a perceived shared identity.

The only thing this guy necessarily has in common with other undocumented immigrants is they happened to be born outside the U.S. but they wanted to be here so much that they came without authorization.

[Horus]

Saying someone is an illegal is a dehumanizing term. Biden did the right thing to apologize.

Dehumanizing cold blooded killers is okay, actually. The only other world leader who would balk at such a term is Trudeau - not good company.

Yeah but he's doing it in the context of undocumented immigrants as a class. It works very much like a racial slur. And we would recognize racial slurs as unacceptable even when used against rapists and murderers because they implicate innocent people by implicitly grouping them together with the killer on the basis of a perceived shared identity.

The only thing this guy necessarily has in common with other undocumented immigrants is they happened to be born outside the U.S. but they wanted to be here so much that they came without authorization.

Undocumented immigrants made the choice to cut in line and cheat the system. Undocumented is not an unchangeable characteristic like race either. They are a group of people who broke the law. All of them.

[Beet]

Saying someone is an illegal is a dehumanizing term. Biden did the right thing to apologize.

Dehumanizing cold blooded killers is okay, actually. The only other world leader who would balk at such a term is Trudeau - not good company.

Yeah but he's doing it in the context of undocumented immigrants as a class. It works very much like a racial slur. And we would recognize racial slurs as unacceptable even when used against rapists and murderers because they implicate innocent people by implicitly grouping them together with the killer on the basis of a perceived shared identity.

The only thing this guy necessarily has in common with other undocumented immigrants is they happened to be born outside the U.S. but they wanted to be here so much that they came without authorization.

Undocumented immigrants made the choice to cut in line and cheat the system. Undocumented is not an unchangeable characteristic like race either

Yes, but that's not the reason they're hated by Republicans. Look, there are obviously legitimate arguments against unlimited immigration but lets not pretend the GOP dehumanizes undocumented immigrants for any other reason than the majority being non-white.

There's just enough wiggle room for them to have plausible deniability. Remember when they claimed their only problem was with ILLEGAL immigration because "oh its totally unfair to legal immigrants who got in line blah blah"? And within months of when Trump got into office they start to try to cut legal immigration as well. By 2020 they are even onto going through decades of naturalization applications to try and find excuses to denaturalize people. Don't play along with it.

[Horus]

Saying someone is an illegal is a dehumanizing term. Biden did the right thing to apologize.

Dehumanizing cold blooded killers is okay, actually. The only other world leader who would balk at such a term is Trudeau - not good company.

Yeah but he's doing it in the context of undocumented immigrants as a class. It works very much like a racial slur. And we would recognize racial slurs as unacceptable even when used against rapists and murderers because they implicate innocent people by implicitly grouping them together with the killer on the basis of a perceived shared identity.

The only thing this guy necessarily has in common with other undocumented immigrants is they happened to be born outside the U.S. but they wanted to be here so much that they came without authorization.

Undocumented immigrants made the choice to cut in line and cheat the system. Undocumented is not an unchangeable characteristic like race either

Yes, but that's not the reason they're hated by Republican. Look, there are obviously legitimate arguments against unlimited immigration but lets not pretend the GOP dehumanizes undocumented immigrants for any other reason than the majority being non-white. There's just enough wiggle room for them to have plausible deniability. Remember when they claimed their only problem was with ILLEGAL immigration because "oh its totally unfair to legal immigrants who got in line blah blah"? And within months of when Trump got into office they start to try to cut legal immigration as well. By 2020 they are even onto going through decades of naturalization applications to try and find excuses to denaturalize people. Don't play along with it.

I have criticized the GOP too, but that doesn't mean change the meaning of words. If most illegal immigrants were from Russia or even a white Hispanic country like Argentina, I'm sure the GOP would be different here. I wouldn't.

And none of that makes "illegal" an inherently offensive or false term. You're just falling into negative polarization. Don't play along with that.

[Beet]

You admitted that "illegal" is a dehumanizing term at the start of this conversation. Anyway, my position is the same as Ferguson and emailking. "Illegal immigrant" is fine. "Illegal" as a noun is generally speaking a racially motivated pejorative.

[Horus]

You admitted that "illegal" is a dehumanizing term at the start of this conversation. Anyway, my position is the same as Ferguson and emailking. "Illegal immigrant" is fine. "Illegal" as a noun is generally speaking a racially motivated pejorative.

That's the thing, I don't personally find it dehumanizing. It's accurate. My point is even if it were dehumanizing in the way you say, it's not the same as a racial slur. People made the choice to break the rules, cut in front of the immigrants coming here properly, and then act all entitled and offended when called what they are. No one chooses their race. You are letting the conservatives define the terms.

[Beet]

You admitted that "illegal" is a dehumanizing term at the start of this conversation. Anyway, my position is the same as Ferguson and emailking. "Illegal immigrant" is fine. "Illegal" as a noun is generally speaking a racially motivated pejorative.

That's the thing, I don't personally find it dehumanizing. It's accurate. My point is even if it were dehumanizing in the way you say, it's not the same as a racial slur. People made the choice to break the rules, cut in front of the immigrants coming here properly, and then act all entitled and offended when called what they are. No one chooses their race. You are letting the conservatives define the terms.

Technically there's daylight between that and a racial slur, but the fundamental appeals to racism, prejudice and bigotry are the same. You may not personally find it dehumanizing, or it may not be dehumanizing on other contexts, but in a political context that is how it is used. No one uses that term when they are out to praise undocumented immigrants. "She is an illegal and now is class valedictorian!" No, its "This illegal is a rapist/murderer; illegals are pouring across the border" etc.

[Electric Circus]

I realize that the party line is that this wasn't in the script, but if Biden was looking for a viral moment that emphasizes how he is triangulating on border crossings, no one could have planned it better.

This might be the most talked about moment from the entire speech.

[Ferguson97]

And none of that makes "illegal" an inherently offensive or false term. You're just falling into negative polarization. Don't play along with that.

It’s an offensive term because most of the people who use the term are using it to be offensive. I don’t know why this is so difficult for you to grasp. That’s how language works.

[Arizona Iced Tea]

Saying someone is an illegal is a dehumanizing term. Biden did the right thing to apologize.

Dehumanizing cold blooded killers is okay, actually. The only other world leader who would balk at such a term is Trudeau - not good company.

Yeah but he's doing it in the context of undocumented immigrants as a class. It works very much like a racial slur. And we would recognize racial slurs as unacceptable even when used against rapists and murderers because they implicate innocent people by implicitly grouping them together with the killer on the basis of a perceived shared identity.

The only thing this guy necessarily has in common with other undocumented immigrants is they happened to be born outside the U.S. but they wanted to be here so much that they came without authorization.

Undocumented immigrants made the choice to cut in line and cheat the system. Undocumented is not an unchangeable characteristic like race either

Yes, but that's not the reason they're hated by Republicans. Look, there are obviously legitimate arguments against unlimited immigration but lets not pretend the GOP dehumanizes undocumented immigrants for any other reason than the majority being non-white.

There's just enough wiggle room for them to have plausible deniability. Remember when they claimed their only problem was with ILLEGAL immigration because "oh its totally unfair to legal immigrants who got in line blah blah"? And within months of when Trump got into office they start to try to cut legal immigration as well. By 2020 they are even onto going through decades of naturalization applications to try and find excuses to denaturalize people. Don't play along with it.

It's not conservatives fault that most people who choose to enter illegal are non-white.